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Justification/ Man-Made Laws

V

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Silverhair said:
So are these verses not in your bible Van?

Luk 8:13 The seeds on rocky ground are those who hear the word and receive it with joy, but they have no root. They believe for a season, but in the time of testing, they fall away.

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly states that in later times some will abandon the faith to follow deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons,

Heb 3:12 See to it, brothers, that none of you has a wicked heart of unbelief that turns away from the living God.
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No verse or passage says or suggests a person can lose their salvation, once born anew. None, Zip, Nada.

Luke 8:13 says they believed, but belief does not automatically save a person, only when and if God credits that belief as righteousness, does human faith provide access to God's grace of salvation.

Again, 1 Timothy 4:1 refers to turning from the truth of the gospel, and proclaiming false doctrines.

Again, Hebrews 3:12 clearly says the person has an unbelieving heart, thus never saved.

The fallacy underpinning your confusion seems to be acceptance that if you believe, that automatically saves, rather than the biblical truth, God has to credit your faith as righteousness in order to be saved.
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Van said:
No verse or passage says or suggests a person can lose their salvation, once born anew. None, Zip, Nada.

Luke 8:13 says they believed, but belief does not automatically save a person, only when and if God credits that belief as righteousness, does human faith provide access to God's grace of salvation.

Again, 1 Timothy 4:1 refers to turning from the truth of the gospel, and proclaiming false doctrines.

Again, Hebrews 3:12 clearly says the person has an unbelieving heart, thus never saved.

The fallacy underpinning your confusion seems to be acceptance that if you believe, that automatically saves, rather than the biblical truth, God has to credit your faith as righteousness in order to be saved.
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So what do those verses means Van?

So if I understand your view correctly, we trust in Christ Jesus and then we have to wait, what 8-10 days before we get an answer from God as to whether He thinks our faith is good enough form Him to save us.

Not what the bible says but it seems to work for you.
 
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V

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Silverhair said:
So what do those verses means Van?

So if I understand your view correctly, we trust in Christ Jesus and then we have to wait, what 8-10 days before we get an answer from God as to whether He thinks our faith is good enough form Him to save us.

Not what the bible says but it seems to work for you.
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I think your question arises from an effort to support error.

1) Our faith in Christ must be deep seated, having a root, such that our commitment and devotion to Christ is greater than our fleshly desires for comfort and security from earthly treasures. The meaning of Luke 8:13.

2) The meaning of the other two verses is presented in post #41.
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Van said:
I think your question arises from an effort to support error.

1) Our faith in Christ must be deep seated, having a root, such that our commitment and devotion to Christ is greater than our fleshly desires for comfort and security from earthly treasures. The meaning of Luke 8:13.

2) The meaning of the other two verses is presented in post #41.
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What error Van?

Your view is the odd one that leads to what I had said.

What does Act 16:30-31 tell us Van?

Now according to you it should read:
Act 16:30 and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Act 16:31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and {then wait and God will get back to you and let you know if He is going to accept your faith. If He does then} you will be saved, you and your household."
 
B

Ben1445

Well-Known Member
Charlie24 said:
I don't know what you're talking about "don't have the Holy Spirit until you are dead."

If you understand the 3 phases of sanctification you will understand what I'm saying.

Positional, Progressive, Ultimate. We are saved, we are being saved, we will be saved. If you've ever heard that.
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So you lose the promise of future salvation?
The Holy Spirit is temporary?
Earnest doesn’t fit with the idea of losing salvation. It is a guarantee that God will fulfill His promises or forfeit the earnest. God is not going to lose the Holy Spirit and let you take the Holy Spirit to the lake of fire because not fulfilling His promises.
Earnest is a guarantee.
I am trying to figure out what you are saying. The reason you don’t understand what I am saying is because I don’t understand what you are saying. Losing salvation is incompatible with the Holy Spirit being the earnest of our inheritance. If you can make these begin to be compatible, we can start having a conversation. Until then, it is not going to make sense to one or both of us.
 
C

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Ben1445 said:
So you lose the promise of future salvation?
The Holy Spirit is temporary?
Earnest doesn’t fit with the idea of losing salvation. It is a guarantee that God will fulfill His promises or forfeit the earnest. God is not going to lose the Holy Spirit and let you take the Holy Spirit to the lake of fire because not fulfilling His promises.
Earnest is a guarantee.
I am trying to figure out what you are saying. The reason you don’t understand what I am saying is because I don’t understand what you are saying. Losing salvation is incompatible with the Holy Spirit being the earnest of our inheritance. If you can make these begin to be compatible, we can start having a conversation. Until then, it is not going to make sense to one or both of us.
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It's very simple, what got you saved is the promise of God, Grace through faith in the crucified Christ.

If that faith fails and no longer exists, then your salvation no longer exists.

Contrary to Calvinism, salvation is conditional. Dozens of verses show us this.
 
J

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Je
Ben1445 said:
So you lose the promise of future salvation?
The Holy Spirit is temporary?
Earnest doesn’t fit with the idea of losing salvation. It is a guarantee that God will fulfill His promises or forfeit the earnest. God is not going to lose the Holy Spirit and let you take the Holy Spirit to the lake of fire because not fulfilling His promises.
Earnest is a guarantee.
I am trying to figure out what you are saying. The reason you don’t understand what I am saying is because I don’t understand what you are saying. Losing salvation is incompatible with the Holy Spirit being the earnest of our inheritance. If you can make these begin to be compatible, we can start having a conversation. Until then, it is not going to make sense to one or both of us.
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Jesus paid our entire sin debt, and he promised to raise up again ALL He has redeemed and saved, an we have been sealed by the Holy Spirit, so no way to get lost again and unsaved
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
JesusFan said:
Je

Jesus paid our entire sin debt, and he promised to raise up again ALL He has redeemed and saved, an we have been sealed by the Holy Spirit, so no way to get lost again and unsaved
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Yes Christ did cover the sins of all men and those that have freely trusted in Him will be saved. But our salvation is not based on a one time faith but a continuing faith.
We see this in Col: 1:21-23

Col 1:21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
Col 1:22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—
Col 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.
 
J

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Silverhair said:
Yes Christ did cover the sins of all men and those that have freely trusted in Him will be saved. But our salvation is not based on a one time faith but a continuing faith.
We see this in Col: 1:21-23

Col 1:21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
Col 1:22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—
Col 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.
Click to expand...
The saving faith itself was a gift of God to us, and God does not take back his gifts
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
JesusFan said:
The saving faith itself was a gift of God to us, and God does not take back his gifts
Click to expand...

Faith unto salvation is not the gift of God.

Salvation because of our faith is the gift of God.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Act 16:30 and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Act 16:31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
 
B

Ben1445

Well-Known Member
Charlie24 said:
It's very simple, what got you saved is the promise of God, Grace through faith in the crucified Christ.

If that faith fails and no longer exists, then your salvation no longer exists.

Contrary to Calvinism, salvation is conditional. Dozens of verses show us this.
Click to expand...
So the Holy Spirit is doing what in this game of red rover?
 
C

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Ben1445 said:
So the Holy Spirit is doing what in this game of red rover?
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Heb. 6:4-6

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."
 
C

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Charlie24 said:
Heb. 6:4-6

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."
Click to expand...

Obviously the Holy Spirit departs from one who falls away from repentance. They cannot be renewed to that repentance, they have committed the ultimate sin of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is a gift and is present only by your faith in Christ, He operates on the basis of your faith, what Christ did to deliver you from the consequences of sin.

If that faith is lost the Holy Spirit has no choice but to leave, and will never return seeing that Christ has been put to open shame.
 
C

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Charlie24 said:
Obviously the Holy Spirit departs from one who falls away from repentance. They cannot be renewed to that repentance, they have committed the ultimate sin of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is a gift and is present only by your faith in Christ, He operates on the basis of your faith, what Christ did to deliver you from the consequences of sin.

If that faith is lost the Holy Spirit has no choice but to leave, and will never return seeing that Christ has been put to open shame.
Click to expand...

This is why Peter said it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and turned away.
 
J

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Charlie24 said:
This is why Peter said it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and turned away.
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Neither Hebrews nor peter stated that really saved get lost and unsaved, but that mere professors of having been saved are in view
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
JesusFan said:
Neither Hebrews nor peter stated that really saved get lost and unsaved, but that mere professors of having been saved are in view
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who have once G530 been enlightened G5461

G5461
to enlighten spiritually, Joh_1:9; Eph_1:18; Eph_3:9; Heb_6:4; Heb_10:32; Mounce

4. to enlighten, spiritually, imbue with saving knowledge Thayer


partakers G3353 of the Holy G40 Spirit G4151,

G3353
1. sharing in, partaking Thayer

Partaking, participating. As a noun, a partaker (Heb_3:1, Heb_3:14; Heb_6:4; Heb_12:8) WSD

Hebrews is clear that these were saved people that have turned away from the faith they once held.
 
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