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Failure to Grasp the Doctrine of Union with Christ, leads to many Error's

Z

Zaatar71

Active Member
We see quite often how several posters because they do not understand this vital teaching correctly. This failure leads to several major errors.
1] Failing to understand God's Eternal purpose, that He has made known to the Church Eph3;9-11

2] Failing to understand the Covenant of Redemption. Jn.6:37-44 Hebrews2:9-16

3] Having a defective view of the Covenant death of the cross Eph1:3-14

4] Failing to understand Penal Substitutionary Atonement

5] Failing to understand Jesus as Surety of the Elect

6] Failure to understand Jesus as the one Mediator between God and man

7] Failure to understand Election and Predestination correctly.

These are just a few of the errors that follow these wrong views that could be understood if the truth of Union with Christ was understood~
 
J

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Zaatar71 said:
Those of you who do understand and believe the teaching, how have you sought to help those who do not quite grasp these teachings?
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have tried to help others try to see how election and predestination can be a great comfort to them, and how the PST atonement provided for full relief for them
 
Z

Zaatar71

Active Member
JesusFan said:
have tried to help others try to see how election and predestination can be a great comfort to them, and how the PST atonement provided for full relief for them
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I have seen you do that! That can be very helpful. It shows that men cannot believe unless God allows them too, by giving them a new heart. It looks like when men try and believe without a new heart, they repeat error, after error because the heart of stone does not allow the truth to be received!
 
J

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Zaatar71 said:
I have seen you do that! That can be very helpful. It shows that men cannot believe unless God allows them too, by giving them a new heart. It looks like when men try and believe without a new heart, they repeat error, after error because the heart of stone does not allow the truth to be received!
Click to expand...
Irony that some who would deny Pst and doctrines of grace as "not biblical, just man made theology" actually are making up their own theology apart from what the bible stated to us
 
S

Some Rando

Member
Zaatar71 said:
We see quite often how several posters because they do not understand this vital teaching correctly. This failure leads to several major errors.
1] Failing to understand God's Eternal purpose, that He has made known to the Church Eph3;9-11

2] Failing to understand the Covenant of Redemption. Jn.6:37-44 Hebrews2:9-16

3] Having a defective view of the Covenant death of the cross Eph1:3-14

4] Failing to understand Penal Substitutionary Atonement

5] Failing to understand Jesus as Surety of the Elect

6] Failure to understand Jesus as the one Mediator between God and man

7] Failure to understand Election and Predestination correctly.

These are just a few of the errors that follow these wrong views that could be understood if the truth of Union with Christ was understood~
Click to expand...
Translation:
If you do not agree with my belief system in relation to these things you are either:
1.) ignorant
2.) stupid
3.) possibly both

If I had a nickel......
 
C

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Zaatar71 said:
We see quite often how several posters because they do not understand this vital teaching correctly. This failure leads to several major errors.
1] Failing to understand God's Eternal purpose, that He has made known to the Church Eph3;9-11

2] Failing to understand the Covenant of Redemption. Jn.6:37-44 Hebrews2:9-16

3] Having a defective view of the Covenant death of the cross Eph1:3-14

4] Failing to understand Penal Substitutionary Atonement

5] Failing to understand Jesus as Surety of the Elect

6] Failure to understand Jesus as the one Mediator between God and man

7] Failure to understand Election and Predestination correctly.

These are just a few of the errors that follow these wrong views that could be understood if the truth of Union with Christ was understood~
Click to expand...

LOL, every single one of these points have been recently discussed and you have seen the other view, but you will not accept any of them.

So it is a misunderstanding on someone's part! That much I agree.
 
Z

Zaatar71

Active Member
JesusFan said:
Irony that some who would deny Pst and doctrines of grace as "not biblical, just man made theology" actually are making up their own theology apart from what the bible stated to us
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Yes,, when a person turns from revealed truth, they turn to darkness and ideas that are alienated from the life of God. yes, they have to invent or make up a theological idol...they have no other choice.
 
Z

Zaatar71

Active Member
Some Rando said:
Translation:
If you do not agree with my belief system in relation to these things you are either:
1.) ignorant
2.) stupid
3.) possibly both

If I had a nickel......
Click to expand...
Hello SR.
I suppose you could view it that way, however I would say; If you do not agree with the biblical teaching on these things, it is because ;
1] You have not read your bible well
2] You have read some, but have sat under a false teaching pastor, who does not grasp truth
3] You are not yet, born again, and are a natural man trying to figure it out
4] You do not realize the ;7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
5] You do not understand this distinction;11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
 
Z

Zaatar71

Active Member
Charlie24 said:
Well, we've found that we agree on several things, but when it comes to predestination we are using different lenses for sure.
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Charlie, as believers we know predestination is a biblical doctrine. So that is a start. I think in time we will come to an agreement on it.
What would you say is your 3 strongest objections to the teaching? You can list more than three if you like, but if you could offer how you view this whole area of revealed truth.
 
C

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Zaatar71 said:
Charlie, as believers we know predestination is a biblical doctrine. So that is a start. I think in time we will come to an agreement on it.
What would you say is your 3 strongest objections to the teaching? You can list more than three if you like, but if you could offer how you view this whole area of revealed truth.
Click to expand...

Whatever I post will just start another argument! You've seen several examples I've given and you never even considered any of them.

Straight out of hand they were rejected. As a matter of fact, I'll bet, if I were a betting man, that you don't understand my objections to your view of predestination.
 
Z

Zaatar71

Active Member
Charlie24 said:
Whatever I post will just start another argument! You've seen several examples I've given and you never even considered any of them.

Straight out of hand they were rejected. As a matter of fact, I'll bet, if I were a betting man, that you don't understand my objections to your view of predestination.
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I am not sure of which posts you are speaking of, so I will start a thread on Predestination, what it is, and objections to it.
 
C

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Zaatar71 said:
I am not sure of which posts you are speaking of, so I will start a thread on Predestination, what it is, and objections to it.
Click to expand...

We can try that if you like. It's always the non-calvinists that give explanation whereas the Calvinists will say, "that's the sovereignty of God, He can do whatever He desires.

The main problem is our definition of God's sovereignty. That is what we should be discussing.
 
C

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Charlie24 said:
We can try that if you like. It's always the non-calvinists that give explanation whereas the Calvinists will say, "that's the sovereignty of God, He can do whatever He desires.

The main problem is our definition of God's sovereignty. That is what we should be discussing.
Click to expand...

Regardless of how we view Rom. 10:13, God is bound by promise to His Word.

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

It is often said that God owes us nothing, yes He does, He owes us the keeping of His Word.

God cannot go back on His Word, He is not sovereign to the degree that He will deny His Word.

God is sovereign in His ability to accomplish what He has promised, and He has given us those promises.
 
S

Some Rando

Member
Zaatar71 said:
Hello SR.
I suppose you could view it that way, however I would say; If you do not agree with the biblical teaching on these things, it is because ;
1] You have not read your bible well
2] You have read some, but have sat under a false teaching pastor, who does not grasp truth
3] You are not yet, born again, and are a natural man trying to figure it out
4] You do not realize the ;7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
5] You do not understand this distinction;11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Click to expand...
Another option:
I agree with the Biblical teaching.
I do not equate Zaatar's teaching with Scripture.

You are correct, however, I chose not to include the fourth normal Calvinist accusation:
If you don't agree with Zaatar you must therefore be:
1.) ignorant
2.) stupid
3.) wicked
4.) any combination of the above

I've heard it for ages, again, if I had a nickel....
My guess is, one day, you will grow out of it. But, it often takes years for Calvinists to cease simply calling those who disagree with them evil.
 
J

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Some Rando said:
Another option:
I agree with the Biblical teaching.
I do not equate Zaatar's teaching with Scripture.

You are correct, however, I chose not to include the fourth normal Calvinist accusation:
If you don't agree with Zaatar you must therefore be:
1.) ignorant
2.) stupid
3.) wicked
4.) any combination of the above

I've heard it for ages, again, if I had a nickel....
My guess is, one day, you will grow out of it. But, it often takes years for Calvinists to cease simply calling those who disagree with them evil.
Click to expand...
Actually its our critics that many times say we have another God/Gospel, man made theology etc
 
S

Some Rando

Member
JesusFan said:
Actually its our critics that many times say we have another God/Gospel, man made theology etc
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If you call Calvinism "the gospel" you do have another gospel.
Because "the gospel" is neither Calvinist, Arminian, or otherwise it is simpler than any of those systems.

You do not worship a different God, But, the view Calvinists have of him could be argued to be evil.

Your Theology is "man-made" as almost all Theology is, but the idea that those who disagree with it is because they simply don't "understand" or are wicked because "it is not given" etc....
Yeah, it's tiresome to hear, and juvenile, and it will convince no one.
 
J

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Some Rando said:
If you call Calvinism "the gospel" you do have another gospel.
Because "the gospel" is neither Calvinist, Arminian, or otherwise it is simpler than any of those systems.

You do not worship a different God, But, the view Calvinists have of him could be argued to be evil.

Your Theology is "man-made" as almost all Theology is, but the idea that those who disagree with it is because they simply don't "understand" or are wicked because "it is not given" etc....
Yeah, it's tiresome to hear, and juvenile, and it will convince no one.
Click to expand...
Calvinism is regards to salvation proper is the best system to explain how God managed to save us lost sinners
 
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