Failure to Grasp the Doctrine of Union with Christ, leads to many Error's

[Alan Dale Gross]

Those of you who do understand and believe the teaching, how have you sought to help those who do not quite grasp these teachings?

Chapter 26: Of the Unity of God

God's Eternal purpose

BOOK IV.
OF THE ACTS OF THE GRACE OF GOD TOWARDS AND UPON HIS ELECT IN TIME.

DOCTRINAL DIVINITY ~ BOOK II

OF THE ACTS AND WORKS OF GOD
​

Chapter 6: Of the Everlasting Council

Chapter 7: Of the Everlasting Covenant of Grace

Chapter 8: Of the Part the Father took in the Covenant

Chapter 9: Of the Part the Son of God took in the Covenant

Chapter 14: Of the Concern the Spirit has in the Covenant

Chapter 15: Of the Properties of the Covenant

Chapter 16: Of the Complacency and Delight the Divine Persons had in Each Other From Everlasting

the Covenant of Redemption

DOCTRINAL DIVINITY ~ BOOK VI

OF THE BLESSINGS OF GRACE, AND THE DOCTRINES OF IT​

Chapter 1: Of Redemption by Christ

Chapter 2: Of the Causes of Redemption

Chapter 3: Of the Objects of Redemption

Chapter 4: Of Scriptures favouring Universal Redemption

the Covenant death of the cross

DOCTRINAL DIVINITY ~ BOOK V

OF THE GRACE OF CHRIST IN HIS STATES OF HUMILIATION AND EXALTATION, AND IN THE OFFICES EXERCISED BY HIM IN THEM​

Chapter 1: Of the Incarnation of Christ

Chapter 2: Of Christ's State of Humiliation

Chapter 3: Of the Active Obedience of Christ

Chapter 4: Of the Passive Obedience of Christ

Chapter 5: Of the Burial of Christ

Penal Substitutionary Atonement

DOCTRINAL DIVINITY ~ BOOK VI

OF THE BLESSINGS OF GRACE, AND THE DOCTRINES OF IT​

Chapter 5: Of the Satisfaction of Christ

Chapter 6: Of Propitiation, Atonement, and Reconciliation

Jesus as Surety of the Elect

DOCTRINAL DIVINITY ~ BOOK II

OF THE ACTS AND WORKS OF GOD​

Chapter 11: Of Christ the Surety of the Covenant

Jesus as the one Mediator between God and man

A BODY OF PRACTICAL DIVINITY Book 1—Chapter 1
OF THE WORSHIP OF GOD, OR PRACTICAL RELIGION OF THE OBJECT OF WORSHIP ​

@ www.grace-ebooks.com/library/John%20Gill/JG_Body%20of%20Divinity%20Vol%202.pdf

"Christ is the Mediator through whom the access is, and in whose name the petition is put up; and the Spirit is the spirit of supplication, by whose aid and assistance prayer is made: the whole of this may be observed in one passage; for "through him", through Christ the mediator, "we both", Jews and Gentiles, "have an access" at the throne of grace "by one spirit", who helps and assists us in our supplications "unto the Father", the Father of Christ and of us (Eph. 2:18), see an instance of a large prayer of the apostles to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ in (Eph. 3:14-21),..."

Election and Predestination

DOCTRINAL DIVINITY ~ BOOK II

OF THE ACTS AND WORKS OF GOD
​

Chapter 1: Of the Internal Acts of God, and of His Decrees in general

Chapter 2: Of the Special Decrees of God, particularly of Election

Chapter 3: Of the Rejection of some Angels and some Men

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Which is just what augustine did in the 4th century and calvin and calvinist's have carried forward to today.

That is just pointing out the truth to you in the hope that you will come out of the 4th century pagan based philosophy and just trust the word of God.

Well I was saved through the word of God long before I ever heard of either Calvinism or Arminianism. Thankful for that.

They are not foolish Z. Why do you follow a philosophy that started in the 4th century?

The fact you will not even take the time say much about you. It seems you are afraid of the truth as it would shatter your calvinst world.

So you are now calling history fables, that is rich coming from you.

Your doctrine is formed by twisting the word of God and changing the meaning of words to suit your preconceived ideas.

So many insulting one-liners, and not a word of Scripture! You are not the only one who does it, but I think you are probably the worst.
It's not good and it's not clever. Did you ever watch the film "Bambi" when you were growing up? Well, heed the words of Thumper's mother: "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all."

 

[Silverhair]

So many insulting one-liners, and not a word of Scripture! You are not the only one who does it, but I think you are probably the worst.
It's not good and it's not clever. Did you ever watch the film "Bambi" when you were growing up? Well, heed the words of Thumper's mother: "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all."

If you had quoted both sides of the discussion then you might have a point but as usual I find with those that hold to the calvinist view like to cherry pick.

How were any of those comments insulting @Martin Marprelate?

If you find the truth insulting then that says more about you than you may care to admit.

 

[Zaatar71]

All you have to do is walk through that door by faith with a humble heart willing to follow Christ.

"Whosoever will let him come..."

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[Zaatar71]

So many insulting one-liners, and not a word of Scripture! You are not the only one who does it, but I think you are probably the worst.
It's not good and it's not clever. Did you ever watch the film "Bambi" when you were growing up? Well, heed the words of Thumper's mother: "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all."

Some religious persons hate the truth of God, and invent their own truth

 

[Charlie24]

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

How does God draw man, Z? How does God draw man since Christ, how did He draw man before Christ under the Law, and how did He draw man before the Law?

 

[Zaatar71]

How does God draw man, Z? How does God draw man since Christ, how did He draw man before Christ under the Law, and how did He draw man before the Law?

Good question;8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged

ezk:34:11 For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.

12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.

Psa110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

1thess.1:4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost.

2thess.2:12 That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.

13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

 

[Charlie24]

Good question;8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged

ezk:34:11 For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.

12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.

Psa110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

1thess.1:4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost.

2thess.2:12 That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.

13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

This is how God calls us in this dispensation, through the Gospel message, worldwide.

During the Law they were called by the Law being a school teacher pointing to Christ through the Sacrificial System, the animal sacrifice that represented the coming Christ as the Lamb of God. But only those who came in contact with the Jews/Hebrews could gain access to this knowledge.

That brings us to those who had no law and no access to the knowledge of God, the Gentile world.

How do you suppose they were called by God?

 

[Silverhair]

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from Him comes to Me—

Joh 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw everyone to Myself.”

Keep studying Z.

 

[Zaatar71]

Joh 6:45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from Him comes to Me—

Joh 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw everyone to Myself.”

Keep studying Z.

lol. a follower of Leighton I see,lol

 

[Silverhair]

lol. a follower of Leighton I see,lol

Who are you responding to Z?

 

[Wesley Briggman]

I do not identify as a Calvinist. However, I would like to learn how the Calvinist view of God could be argued to be evil.

But to answer your question, most non-Calvinists look at the end result of TULIP and see God choosing an Elect group of individuals for salvation and leaving the rest to die/perish in their sins. God didn't die for the sins of those He didn't choose for salvation, according to TULIP.

This is seen by these folks as the teaching of Calvinism being evil. They believe God is fair and just to all of mankind and offers salvation to all.

(Mat 7:21 KJV) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(Mat 7:22 KJV) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(Mat 7:23 KJV) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[Charlie24]

I do not identify as a Calvinist. However, I would like to learn how the Calvinist view of God could be argued to be evil.


(Mat 7:21 KJV) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(Mat 7:22 KJV) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(Mat 7:23 KJV) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I guess you don't agree with my summary.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

Not trying to start an argument, I think we've all had enough of that lately.

But to answer your question, most non-Calvinists look at the end result of TULIP and see God choosing an Elect group of individuals for salvation and leaving the rest to die/perish in their sins. God didn't die for the sins of those He didn't choose for salvation, according to TULIP.

This is seen by these folks as the teaching of Calvinism being evil. They believe God is fair and just to all of mankind and offers salvation to all.

In short, man sends himself to Hell by refusing the offer of God's salvation and not God allowing them to go to Hell without them having a choice.

I do not identify as a Calvinist. However, I would like to learn how the Calvinist view of God could be argued to be evil.


(Mat 7:21 KJV) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(Mat 7:22 KJV) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(Mat 7:23 KJV) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I guess you don't agree with my summary.

I have no issue with your summary since you do not state that you agree with the summary . Because of the terms you used in tour post: "most non-Calvinists"; "these folks"; "They believe", I thought you were just sharing the view of non-Calvinist.

Whether or not I agree is of no matter. Does scripture agree or not is the issue.

I might be misunderstanding the passage posted, or taking it out of context. If so, hopefully that will be pointed out.

 

[Charlie24]

I have no issue with your summary since you do not state that you agree with the summary . Because of the terms you used in tour post: "most non-Calvinists"; "these folks"; "They believe", I thought you were just sharing the view of non-Calvinist.

Whether or not I agree is of no matter. Does scripture agree or not is the issue.

I might be misunderstanding the passage posted, or taking it out of context. If so, hopefully that will be pointed out.

That summary is what I've heard over the past 30-40 years from many who have a problem with Calvinism.

That summary being almost always the point made.

Of course there are others who have a much better understanding of the problems represented in Calvinism.

They tend to get into the mechanics of it, as some here have done.

 

[Silverhair]

I do not identify as a Calvinist. However, I would like to learn how the Calvinist view of God could be argued to be evil.


(Mat 7:21 KJV) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(Mat 7:22 KJV) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(Mat 7:23 KJV) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

If I can jump in here to add a comment.

I do not see calvinism as evil but rather just confused in their understanding of the word of God.

Where the claim of calvinism being evil comes from I think goes back to the WCF & LBCF

WCF Cahpter 3
God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass:

LBCF Chapter 3
God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass;

Now in both cases they will add a disclaimer in these words:

WCF "yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin"

LBCF "yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein;"

So while they claim God degrees all things they then say He does not. But then they will turn around and say He does degree all things, as I said rather confusing.

When we then look at the TULIP/DoG we see that although God desires all to be saved they claim that He in actuality does not really want that as He "elected " a special group and only they can trust in God and yet God judges all the rest for rejecting Him even though they cannot trust in Him as He has not given then the ability to trust in Him.

So it is not calvinism that is evil, it is the philosophy that they hold that is questionable.

If one did a deeper dive into the foundations of calvinist thought then you would find the evil of pagan philosophy.

 

[Some Rando]

I do not identify as a Calvinist. However, I would like to learn how the Calvinist view of God could be argued to be evil.


(Mat 7:21 KJV) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(Mat 7:22 KJV) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(Mat 7:23 KJV) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Charlie is partially correct:
But, it ignores the larger issue.
It is certainly the case that God has no moral duty to save anyone, "elect" or "non-elect". Calvinists love to point this out. This is not the problem. It isn't so much the issue that God is seen to arbitrarily save some and not others.

It's that he even creates the ones he never intends to save in the first place.

You have to combine with Calvinism's arbitrary mechanic for who God chooses to save with the fact that no one chooses in any meaningful sense to "become" a sinner needing saving to begin with.
Calvinism assumes Original Sin, and more specifically Original Guilt whereby every human, born, unborn, died at 2, or died at 80 is a wretched being who is so filthy and disgusting in God's sight that they "deserve" eternal torture for the crime of God's decreeing that they be born with Original Sin.
This was God's plan after all.
God decided that all humans would share Adam's stain. God decided to give Adam freedom to fail knowing without a doubt he would do so. God decided that all humans would share in the guilt of that original sin Adam committed. God has decreed that all people will be born incapable of doing right or being righteous. In effect, humans are sinners because ultimately God decreed that they be sinners.

Calvinism assumes non posse non peccare:
It is simply impossible for any human God has created to NOT be a sinner.
Therefore, it is capricious at best to choose to save some and not others. God, then, has chosen, to subject countless billions to eternal torture just to glorify himself, whereas presumably, he could choose to save all. This could be argued to be evil or at least unbelievably cruel.

Couple all of this with the pretense God makes in the Scriptures about not glorying in the death of the wicked, or calling all men to repent (knowing they can't and can't want to), or claiming to have love for all mankind and it seems not only that God is being cruel but claiming to be kind and loving in the process.
Some people think this seems a lot like abusing your spouse and claiming that you are only doing so because you love them.
Or beating your wife and saying you wish: "they didn't make you have to do that".

 

[Silverhair]

Charlie is partially correct:
But, it ignores the larger issue.
It is certainly the case that God has no moral duty to save anyone, "elect" or "non-elect". Calvinists love to point this out. This is not the problem. It isn't so much the issue that God is seen to arbitrarily save some and not others.

It's that he even creates the ones he never intends to save in the first place.

You have to combine with Calvinism's arbitrary mechanic for who God chooses to save with the fact that no one chooses in any meaningful sense to "become" a sinner needing saving to begin with.
Calvinism assumes Original Sin, and more specifically Original Guilt whereby every human, born, unborn, died at 2, or died at 80 is a wretched being who is so filthy and disgusting in God's sight that they "deserve" eternal torture for the crime of God's decreeing that they be born with Original Sin.
This was God's plan after all.
God decided that all humans would share Adam's stain. God decided to give Adam freedom to fail knowing without a doubt he would do so. God decided that all humans would share in the guilt of that original sin Adam committed. God has decreed that all people will be born incapable of doing right or being righteous. In effect, humans are sinners because ultimately God decreed that they be sinners.

Calvinism assumes non posse non peccare:
It is simply impossible for any human God has created to NOT be a sinner.
Therefore, it is capricious at best to choose to save some and not others. God, then, has chosen, to subject countless billions to eternal torture just to glorify himself, whereas presumably, he could choose to save all. This could be argued to be evil or at least unbelievably cruel.

Couple all of this with the pretense God makes in the Scriptures about not glorying in the death of the wicked, or calling all men to repent (knowing they can't and can't want to), or claiming to have love for all mankind and it seems not only that God is being cruel but claiming to be kind and loving in the process.
Some people think this seems a lot like abusing your spouse and claiming that you are only doing so because you love them.
Or beating your wife and saying you wish: "they didn't make you have to do that".

Now we wait for the usual calvinist response, "you just do not understand calvinism".

 

[Some Rando]

Now we wait for the usual calvinist response, "you just do not understand calvinism".

Correct....
Because, Silverhair, to you it has not been given to understand these deep truths.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

It is certainly the case that God has no moral duty to save anyone, "elect" or "non-elect".

Is this your position or are you saying it is the Calvinist position?

You neglected to include any scriptural references to support your statements.