Failure to Grasp the Doctrine of Union with Christ, leads to many Error's

[Charlie24]

Your post is not clear at all. What do you mean when you say this;

Where does the text say anything about being "adopted in a certain way"
Where does the text say that?
What is that certain way?
Where does it say...how man will be saved?

He could have adopted us by living a good moral life.

He could have adopted us by Church membership.

He could have adopted us by random choice.

He could have adopted us by by our good outweighing our bad.

But He chose to adopt us by Jesus Christ according to His good pleasure.

 

[37818]

Romans 8;23, And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

You do not worship a different God, But, the view Calvinists have of him could be argued to be evil.

I do not identify as a Calvinist. However, I would like to learn how the Calvinist view of God could be argued to be evil.

 

[Charlie24]

I do not identify as a Calvinist. However, I would like to learn how the Calvinist view of God could be argued to be evil.

Not trying to start an argument, I think we've all had enough of that lately.

But to answer your question, most non-Calvinists look at the end result of TULIP and see God choosing an Elect group of individuals for salvation and leaving the rest to die/perish in their sins. God didn't die for the sins of those He didn't choose for salvation, according to TULIP.

This is seen by these folks as the teaching of Calvinism being evil. They believe God is fair and just to all of mankind and offers salvation to all.

In short, man sends himself to Hell by refusing the offer of God's salvation and not God allowing them to go to Hell without them having a choice.

 

[Zaatar71]

But to answer your question, most non-Calvinists look at the end result of TULIP and see God choosing an Elect group of individuals for salvation and leaving the rest to die/perish in their sins. God didn't die for the sins of those He didn't choose for salvation, according to TULIP.

yes,correct;1689;
3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, 7 to the praise of His glorious grace; 8 others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of His glorious justice. 9
7. 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:348. Ephesians 1:5-69. Romans 9:22-23; Jude 4

This is seen by these folks as the teaching of Calvinism being evil. They believe God is fair and just to all of mankind and offers salvation to all.

He does not offer to all men ever born, that is not the teaching of scripture. unless a missionary preaches to these people in foreign fields, they have no verbal offer of anything from God. That is a foolish position, easily disproved.

In short, man sends himself to Hell by refusing the offer of God's salvation and not God allowing them to go to Hell without them having a choice.

What about the millions who have never heard about Jesus? What sends them to hell?

 

[Charlie24]

What about the millions who have never heard about Jesus? What sends them to hell?

Rom. 1:19-20

"Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"

 

[Zaatar71]

Rom. 1:19-20

"Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"

Romans 1..does not save anyone. It let's them know there is a God who they must answer to, hence they are without excuse. Without special revelation ,they perish in Adam. Rom .10:
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Paul and the scriptures give no indication of such salvations happening. Missionaries find Idolatry everywhere, as the rest of Romans 1 describes.

 

[Charlie24]

Romans 1..does not save anyone. It let's them know there is a God who they must answer to, hence they are without excuse. Without special revelation ,they perish in Adam. Rom .10:
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Paul and the scriptures give no indication of such salvations happening. Missionaries find Idolatry everywhere, as the rest of Romans 1 describes.

We were talking about what sends man to hell who has never heard of Christ, who has no knowledge of Him.

Before Christ came man was saved by looking forward to the coming Christ through the Sacrificial System of the Law. The animal sacrifice was the means for the forgiveness of sins with Christ representing that sacrifice.

Before the Law and all the way back to the Garden of Eden the animal sacrifice had the same meaning. We see in Cain an Abel the animal sacrifice that represented Christ was accepted from Abel, but the vegetable sacrifice was rejected from Cain.

We see several times in the OT where God sent the Hebrews of old who knew and practiced faith in the sacrifice that represented Christ, to those who God knew would believe. Rahab the harlot comes to mind, the Gentile widow woman that God sent Elijah, Naaman the Syrian who God sent to the prophet, so on and so on.

The Gentiles who did not recognize the creation of God as a superior being with the proof of God's hand before their very eyes were sent no one. They died in their sins and they will not have an excuse on judgement day.

 

[Charlie24]

We were talking about what sends man to hell who has never heard of Christ, who has no knowledge of Him.

Before Christ came man was saved by looking forward to the coming Christ through the Sacrificial System of the Law. The animal sacrifice was the means for the forgiveness of sins with Christ representing that sacrifice.

Before the Law and all the way back to the Garden of Eden the animal sacrifice had the same meaning. We see in Cain an Abel the animal sacrifice that represented Christ was accepted from Abel, but the vegetable sacrifice was rejected from Cain.

We see several times in the OT where God sent the Hebrews of old who knew and practiced faith in the sacrifice that represented Christ, to those who God knew would believe. Rahab the harlot comes to mind, the Gentile widow woman that God sent Elijah, Naaman the Syrian who God sent to the prophet, so on and so on.

The Gentiles who did not recognize the creation of God as a superior being with the proof of God's hand before their very eyes were sent no one. They died in their sins and they will not have an excuse on judgement day.

Before the foundation of the world God through His foreknowledge knew who would believe and He reached out to them in Mercy and Grace.

Christ did the same when He was here on earth. He was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel, but we can see from the Gospels He searched out the Gentiles who would believe and never turned down a single one.

In fact, He went out of his way to meet the Gentile women, a Samaritan at the well, knowing that she would believe and that through her testimony the entire Gentile city would be prepared for His salvation.

Luke 19:10

"For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost."

He's still seeking and saving!

 

[Zaatar71]

We were talking about what sends man to hell who has never heard of Christ, who has no knowledge of Him.

Before Christ came man was saved by looking forward to the coming Christ through the Sacrificial System of the Law. The animal sacrifice was the means for the forgiveness of sins with Christ representing that sacrifice.

Before the Law and all the way back to the Garden of Eden the animal sacrifice had the same meaning. We see in Cain an Abel the animal sacrifice that represented Christ was accepted from Abel, but the vegetable sacrifice was rejected from Cain.

We see several times in the OT where God sent the Hebrews of old who knew and practiced faith in the sacrifice that represented Christ, to those who God knew would believe. Rahab the harlot comes to mind, the Gentile widow woman that God sent Elijah, Naaman the Syrian who God sent to the prophet, so on and so on.

The Gentiles who did not recognize the creation of God as a superior being with the proof of God's hand before their very eyes were sent no one. They died in their sins and they will not have an excuse on judgement day.

Charlie, Lets keep it simple. All men sinned and died in Adam. Rom.3:23,That sin alone sends them to hell. So all men ever born naturally love sin, and do not seek God. The Romans 10 passage explains Why the Gospel is preached and taught. God in Love has elected a multitude that He is going to seek and save. They are lost sheep given to the Son. They are given to Him, before time was. He seeks and saves them.
It is so Great a salvation. If God did not elect them, they would never become saved.

You said this;
[Before the foundation of the world God through His foreknowledge knew who would believe and He reached out to them in Mercy and Grace.]

This is completely false. That is not biblical foreknowledge. God does not elect unbelievers who would believe. No such teaching is in scripture.

 

[Charlie24]

Charlie, Lets keep it simple. All men sinned and died in Adam. Rom.3:23,That sin alone sends them to hell. So all men ever born naturally love sin, and do not seek God. The Romans 10 passage explains Why the Gospel is preached and taught. God in Love has elected a multitude that He is going to seek and save. They are lost sheep given to the Son. They are given to Him, before time was. He seeks and saves them.
It is so Great a salvation. If God did not elect them,they would never become saved.

You're overlooking the available knowledge of God and His salvation according the dispensational times in which man lived.

That is what I was explaining. God reaches out to those that He knows will choose to believe Him, not who He has elected for salvation, leaving the rest to die in their sins just because that was His sovereign will.

 

[Zaatar71]

You're overlooking the available knowledge of God and His salvation according the dispensational times in which man lived.

That is what I was explaining. God reaches out to those that He knows will choose to believe Him, not who He has elected for salvation, leaving the rest to die in their sins just because that was His sovereign will.

The only reason God knows who will believe is because He has ordained that they would believe. No one chooses God, no not one.
1jn.4:19 We love him, because he first loved us..... This is not the picture you are painting Charlie.

 

[Charlie24]

The only reason God knows who will believe is because He has ordained that they would believe. No one chooses God, no not one.
1jn.4:19 We love him, because he first loved us..... This is not the picture you are painting Charlie.

How many verses of Scripture have we shown you that you have to deny in order to believe what you have said?

Round and round we go and can never accomplish anything!

Just another example of Calvin following a pagan theory and completely ignoring all the sign posts with the instructions along the way!

 

[Zaatar71]

How many verses of Scripture have we shown you that you have to deny in order to believe what you have said?

Round and round we go and can never accomplish anything!

Just another example of Calvin following a pagan theory and completely ignoring all the sign posts with the instructions along the way!

You have not shown any scripture that I have to deny. The fact is you deny most all the verses. You can do that if you want. believe your fairy tale version and make it up as you go. There are 5 or 6 of you that do that. Good luck to you friend.

 

[Charlie24]

You have not shown any scripture that I have to deny. The fact is you deny most all the verses. You can do that if you want. believe your fairy tale version and make it up as you go. There are 5 or 6 of you that do that. Good luck to you friend.

Well I do consider you my friend also, seriously. We both believe that Jesus Christ died for our sins and we have changed course to follow Him.

We do have several outstanding issues that we can't work out, and I don't want to think it's a lost cause.

Speaking of Christ dying for our sins, we have a problem with 1 John 2:2.

What do you think John meant when he said, "He is the satisfaction not only for OUR sins, but also for the sins of the whole world."

Now if we can agree on this, we will be getting somewhere beneficial for both of us.

 

[Zaatar71]

Well I do consider you my friend also, seriously. We both believe that Jesus Christ died for our sins and we have changed course to follow Him.

We do have several outstanding issues that we can't work out, and I don't want to think it's a lost cause.

Speaking of Christ dying for our sins, we have a problem with 1 John 2:2.

What do you think John meant when he said, "He is the satisfaction not only for OUR sins, but also for the sins of the whole world."

Now if we can agree on this, we will be getting somewhere beneficial for both of us.

The sins of.....is not in the text.;
2 and he -- he is a propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world,

our sins, are those already saved. but also...the whole world....everyone believing worldwide will also escape the wrath of God as when God draws them to saving faith, Jesus has already died for those believers and provided a real propitiation an actual turning away of the wrath from them.

 

[Charlie24]

The sins of.....is not in the text.;
2 and he -- he is a propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world,

our sins, are those already saved. but also...the whole world....everyone believing worldwide will also escape the wrath of God as when God draws them to saving faith, Jesus has already died for those believers and provided a real propitiation an actual turning away of the wrath from them.

But He's not the satisfaction for the sins of the whole world?

It looks as though you are side-stepping the question.

 

[Zaatar71]

But He's not the satisfaction for the sins of the whole world?

It looks as though you are side-stepping the question.

It is not a potential propitiation...It is actual
Every person who jesus is the propitiation for will be in heaven. It is not every person in the world, but rather the children of God scattered worldwide; look- jn 11:51 And this he said not of himself, but being chief priest of that year, he did prophesy that Jesus was about to die for the nation,

52 and not for the nation only, but that also the children of God, who have been scattered abroad, he may gather together into one.

just like 1jn2:2...John wrote both! The children OF GOD scattered abroad...it is clear, not all men, but rather, the children of God scattered

 

[Charlie24]

It is not a potential propitiation...It is actual
Every person who jesus is the propitiation for will be in heaven. It is not every person in the world, but rather the children of God scattered worldwide; look- jn 11:51 And this he said not of himself, but being chief priest of that year, he did prophesy that Jesus was about to die for the nation,

52 and not for the nation only, but that also the children of God, who have been scattered abroad, he may gather together into one.

just like 1jn2:2...John wrote both! The children OF GOD scattered abroad...it is clear, not all men, but rather, the children of God scattered

Well of course we can't agree! John is saying the satisfaction for sin is as wide as the sin.

For the lost and saved worldwide. The door is open for the whole world to come.

 

[Charlie24]

Well of course we can't agree! John is saying the satisfaction for sin is as wide as the sin.

For the lost and saved worldwide. The door is open for the whole world to come.

All you have to do is walk through that door by faith with a humble heart willing to follow Christ.

"Whosoever will let him come..."