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Eternal Punishment Versus Eternal Torment

37818

37818

Well-Known Member
Van said:
The above claim is false, unstudied and absurd.

Matthew 25:41 says the unsaved go into eternal fire, it does not say they may not be destroyed.

Revelation 20:10 says the devil and his cohorts will be tormented day and night forever. It does not say humans will suffer the same punishment.

None of the verses often cited to support the premise of eternal torment actually support eternal torment, but rather offer the opportunity for folks to read into the text their assumptions, such as humans suffer the same as the devil.
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The perishing of the body and soul doesn't exclude the unquenchable fire.
Matthew 10:28, Matthew 3:12.
 
Piper 2

Piper 2

Member
Van said:
The Biblical doctrine at issue is what happens to humans who are tossed into the Lake of Fire following judgement, their names not being found in the Lamb's book of life.

The Eternal Torment crowd believe that humans never succumb, but remain conscious and aware of their ongoing torment.
The Annihilationist crowd believe human existence immediately ends when the person enters the lake of fire, the second death.
A supposed subset of the Annihilationist crowd believes Satan and demons suffer eternally, but humans die immediately. These are the so-called Partial Annhilationists.

The first question then is whether humans suffer torment in the lake of fire, or immediately die? Revelation 14:11 explicitly answers that question, humans suffer torment in the lake of fire and do not immediately die!

So no one who actually believes what the bible says is an Annhilationist or Partial Annhilationist.

Second question, does Revelation 14:11 says the humans are eternally tormented, or only that the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever? Does this vague phrase require the conclusion that ongoing torment forever and ever is being taught? Why the difference between Revelation 14:11 concerning humans, and Revelation 20:10?

Clearly Satan and his cohorts suffer ongoing torment day and night forever and ever. Just as clearly humans suffer "eternal punishment" as explicitly stated in Matthew 25:46.

Can we equate "Eternal Torment" with "Eternal Punishment?" No, as eternal torment requires the person to remain aware of his or her suffering, whereas if someone is separated from God forever, the punishment of separation is eternal, whether or not the person is aware.
But does this preclude that the phrases were intended to convey the same thing? Nope.

Could the phrase "smoke ascends forever and ever" (see Revelation 14:11 and Revelation 19:3) simply refer to the eternal consequence of God's judgement, rather than ongoing generation of smoke from human torment? Yes.

Clearly the smoke from the lake of fire comes from the eternal fire of the lake. Thus whatever the consequence of being thrown into the lake is the punishment of eternal fire, See Matthew 18:8, Matthew 25:41 and Jude 1:7.

Conclusion of the Matter:

Nothing in scripture precludes "Eternal Torment" of humans in the Lake of Fire. However, the concept that God's punishment fits the crime, some punishment is more tolerable than other, suggests that the torment will be limited so that someone who died in unbelief at an early age will not suffer the same as someone who denied access to God's truth to children. People who take one side or the other are long on dogmatic claims and short on exegetical insight. Recall that the punishment for those who did not see the miracles of Jesus will suffer a more tolerable punishment. Matthew 10:15, Luke 10:14. Eternal torment is a one size fits all dogma, not well supported in scripture. But to claim it is not a possibility is just as dogmatic.
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What a ridiculous interpretation. It is eternal Torment.
 
V

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Piper 2 said:
What a ridiculous interpretation. It is eternal Torment.
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Oh what intellectual depth, Piper 2 is right and any other view is ridiculous. No need to address the reasons why ET is only a possibility and not doctrine explicitly taught from scripture. Nope, all we need is to scream and shout and wave arms and run about....
 
V

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
37818 said:
The perishing of the body and soul doesn't exclude the unquenchable fire.
Matthew 10:28, Matthew 3:12.
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Did anyone say the fire of the Lake of Fire was not eternal and therefore unquenchable? Nope. Once again, addressing what is not in contention and ignoring what is in contention.
 
S

Some Rando

Member
37818 said:
Unquenchable is.the torment, causing it to be eternal.
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"Unquenchable" means it cannot be put out.
It does not mean it lasts forever, can't burn itself out or anything of the sort.
Moreover, it is the fire that is "eternal" not the life of the person thrown into the fire.
No where does the Bible teach that the damned receive eternal life.

The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ exclusively.
 
S

Some Rando

Member
JesusFan said:
Are those in the Lake of Fire still existing?
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The great day of final judgment has not yet occured.
No one has been cast into the Lake of Fire yet.

The dead were in Sheol or Hades until the final judgement.
The righteous dead are likely no longer in Sheol or hades but, instead, now with Christ awaiting the resurrection of the body.
It is grievous error to confuse "hell" with Gehenna or the Lake of Fire they are distinct.
 
J

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Some Rando said:
The great day of final judgment has not yet occured.
No one has been cast into the Lake of Fire yet.

The dead were in Sheol or Hades until the final judgement.
The righteous dead are likely no longer in Sheol or hades but, instead, now with Christ awaiting the resurrection of the body.
It is grievous error to confuse "hell" with Gehenna or the Lake of Fire they are distinct.
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True, but will those in the Lake of Fire in the end still be existing?
 
S

Some Rando

Member
JesusFan said:
Theu will be resurrected
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correct:
Both the righteous and the wicked are resurrected:

John 5:28
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5: 29
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;
and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation

Where do the Scriptures teach that after the Resurrection and final judgment the wicked receive eternal life?
Is that what John was calling the "resurrection of damnation?"
 
J

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Some Rando said:
correct:
Both the righteous and the wicked are resurrected:

John 5:28
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5: 29
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;
and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation

Where do the Scriptures teach that after the Resurrection and final judgment the wicked receive eternal life?
Is that what John was calling the "resurrection of damnation?"
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Eternal life is not the same as living forever, as all will get that benefit from the Resurrection of Jesus, but etrnally with or without God
 
S

Some Rando

Member
JesusFan said:
Eternal life is not the same as living forever, as all will get that benefit from the Resurrection of Jesus, but etrnally with or without God
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Says who?
Why would "life" here modified as being "eternal" (Eternal Life)

NOT BE semantically equivalent to

"life" here modified as being "forever". (Living Forever)?

Realize here, that you have just said unironically that: "Eternal life is not the same as living forever".
That is the semantic parallel as the phrase Eternal joy is not the same thing as Joy forever.
How much in-depth study of God's word do you have to do to arrive at that conclusion?
 
J

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Some Rando said:
Says who?
Why would "life" here modified as being "eternal" (Eternal Life)

NOT BE semantically equivalent to

"life" here modified as being "forever". (Living Forever)?

Realize here, that you have just said unironically that: "Eternal life is not the same as living forever".
That is the semantic parallel as the phrase Eternal joy is not the same thing as Joy forever.
How much in-depth study of God's word do you have to do to arrive at that conclusion?
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God does not kill off any of his creations, as they will have an eternity with God, or without God
 
S

Some Rando

Member
JesusFan said:
God does not kill off any of his creations, as they will have an eternity with God, or without God
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According to Scripture he does:
Mat 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Psa 37:10
For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.

Psa 37:18
The LORD knoweth the days of the upright: and their inheritance shall be for ever.
Psa 37:20
But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Psa 37:35
I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree.
Psa 37:36
Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found.
Psa 37:38
But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off.
 
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