Eternal Punishment Versus Eternal Torment

[Van]

The Biblical doctrine at issue is what happens to humans who are tossed into the Lake of Fire following judgement, their names not being found in the Lamb's book of life.

The Eternal Torment crowd believe that humans never succumb, but remain conscious and aware of their ongoing torment.
The Annihilationist crowd believe human existence immediately ends when the person enters the lake of fire, the second death.
A supposed subset of the Annihilationist crowd believes Satan and demons suffer eternally, but humans die immediately. These are the so-called Partial Annhilationists.

The first question then is whether humans suffer torment in the lake of fire, or immediately die? Revelation 14:11 explicitly answers that question, humans suffer torment in the lake of fire and do not immediately die!

So no one who actually believes what the bible says is an Annhilationist or Partial Annhilationist.

Second question, does Revelation 14:11 says the humans are eternally tormented, or only that the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever? Does this vague phrase require the conclusion that ongoing torment forever and ever is being taught? Why the difference between Revelation 14:11 concerning humans, and Revelation 20:10?

Clearly Satan and his cohorts suffer ongoing torment day and night forever and ever. Just as clearly humans suffer "eternal punishment" as explicitly stated in Matthew 25:46.

Can we equate "Eternal Torment" with "Eternal Punishment?" No, as eternal torment requires the person to remain aware of his or her suffering, whereas if someone is separated from God forever, the punishment of separation is eternal, whether or not the person is aware.
But does this preclude that the phrases were intended to convey the same thing? Nope.

Could the phrase "smoke ascends forever and ever" (see Revelation 14:11 and Revelation 19:3) simply refer to the eternal consequence of God's judgement, rather than ongoing generation of smoke from human torment? Yes.

Clearly the smoke from the lake of fire comes from the eternal fire of the lake. Thus whatever the consequence of being thrown into the lake is the punishment of eternal fire, See Matthew 18:8, Matthew 25:41 and Jude 1:7.

Conclusion of the Matter:

Nothing in scripture precludes "Eternal Torment" of humans in the Lake of Fire. However, the concept that God's punishment fits the crime, some punishment is more tolerable than other, suggests that the torment will be limited so that someone who died in unbelief at an early age will not suffer the same as someone who denied access to God's truth to children. People who take one side or the other are long on dogmatic claims and short on exegetical insight. Recall that the punishment for those who did not see the miracles of Jesus will suffer a more tolerable punishment. Matthew 10:15, Luke 10:14. Eternal torment is a one size fits all dogma, not well supported in scripture. But to claim it is not a possibility is just as dogmatic.

 

[37818]

Matthew 10:28, And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Revelation 14:9-11, And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Revelation 21:8, But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Revelation 20:15, And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Keith Mullins]

I know it's a short answer, but Rev 14 is pretty clear that it is eternal torment. They have no rest day or night. I don't see how anyone could be intellectually honest and hold a different belief.

 

[Charlie24]

The Biblical doctrine at issue is what happens to humans who are tossed into the Lake of Fire following judgement, their names not being found in the Lamb's book of life.

The Eternal Torment crowd believe that humans never succumb, but remain conscious and aware of their ongoing torment.
The Annihilationist crowd believe human existence immediately ends when the person enters the lake of fire, the second death.
A supposed subset of the Annihilationist crowd believes Satan and demons suffer eternally, but humans die immediately. These are the so-called Partial Annhilationists.

The first question then is whether humans suffer torment in the lake of fire, or immediately die? Revelation 14:11 explicitly answers that question, humans suffer torment in the lake of fire and do not immediately die!

So no one who actually believes what the bible says is an Annhilationist or Partial Annhilationist.

Second question, does Revelation 14:11 says the humans are eternally tormented, or only that the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever? Does this vague phrase require the conclusion that ongoing torment forever and ever is being taught? Why the difference between Revelation 14:11 concerning humans, and Revelation 20:10?

Clearly Satan and his cohorts suffer ongoing torment day and night forever and ever. Just as clearly humans suffer "eternal punishment" as explicitly stated in Matthew 25:46.

Can we equate "Eternal Torment" with "Eternal Punishment?" No, as eternal torment requires the person to remain aware of his or her suffering, whereas if someone is separated from God forever, the punishment of separation is eternal, whether or not the person is aware.
But does this preclude that the phrases were intended to convey the same thing? Nope.

Could the phrase "smoke ascends forever and ever" (see Revelation 14:11 and Revelation 19:3) simply refer to the eternal consequence of God's judgement, rather than ongoing generation of smoke from human torment? Yes.

Clearly the smoke from the lake of fire comes from the eternal fire of the lake. Thus whatever the consequence of being thrown into the lake is the punishment of eternal fire, See Matthew 18:8, Matthew 25:41 and Jude 1:7.

Conclusion of the Matter:

Nothing in scripture precludes "Eternal Torment" of humans in the Lake of Fire. However, the concept that God's punishment fits the crime, some punishment is more tolerable than other, suggests that the torment will be limited so that someone who died in unbelief at an early age will not suffer the same as someone who denied access to God's truth to children. People who take one side or the other are long on dogmatic claims and short on exegetical insight. Recall that the punishment for those who did not see the miracles of Jesus will suffer a more tolerable punishment. Matthew 10:15, Luke 10:14. Eternal torment is a one size fits all dogma, not well supported in scripture. But to claim it is not a possibility is just as dogmatic.

I agree there are degrees of sin, Christ made that clear when He said "he that delivered me hath the greater sin."

It would fit the bill that degrees of sin equals degrees of punishment.

I think Rev. 14:11 is clear their conscience existence is forever in torment, whoever received the mark of the beast. This seems to be specific to those who worshiped the Beast. This is severe.

It seems in Rev. 20:10 the same conscience torment forever is in store for Satan, the Beast, and the False Prophet. This is severe and maybe more severe than the Beast worshipers.

Now in Rev. 20:14-15 all the lost that are left from throughout history are called up to be judged and cast into the Lake of Fire. There is no mention of torment here, but the Lake of Fire cannot be a vacation. It seems this may be a less severe torment, maybe according to the degree of sin.

There is no indication that any of these in the Lake of Fire cease to exist. It seems to be a lesser punishment.

In Rev. 21:8 it says the unbelieving, etc, etc, will have their part in the Lake that burns with fire and brimstone.

So it seems their part is forever but not as extreme as the Beast worshipers, Satan, the anit-Christ, and false prophet.

 

[37818]

Matthew 3:11-12, . . . and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Mark 9:47-48, . . . to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

 

[Van]

I know it's a short answer, but Rev 14 is pretty clear that it is eternal torment. They have no rest day or night. I don't see how anyone could be intellectually honest and hold a different belief.

When some people try to derive the actual message of a verse or passage, they ask the question, "What is the least God is saying?" This practice is for the purpose of avoiding to the extent possible, adding to scripture.

Let us look at Revelation 14:11:

​

“And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”​

The question to ask is "when did they (humans) have no rest? Does it say forever and ever? Nope, it says during the time of their torment they have no rest. Smoke is a consequence of fire, or in this case the smoke is a consequence of torment. Thus, being "intellectually honest" folks can read the verse as not supporting eternal torment for humans. Rather it says the consequence of torment in the Lake of Fire is eternal.

 

[Van]

If we consider Isaiah 34:10 and the concept of the eternal fire which will destroy Edom, we see none will survive the fire.

But others read the verse as saying none will travel through the city ever again. Both views could be in part driven by an agenda, to make it fit with destruction or with eternal torment. We are not mind-readers.

If we are intellectually honest we will not teach speculation as dogma.

 

[37818]

Eternal punishment versus eternal torment is an imposed dichotomy.
Matthew 25:41, . . . everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: . . . .

Revelation 20:10, And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Matthew 25:46, . . . these shall go away into everlasting punishment: . . . .

 

[37818]

The question to ask is "when did they (humans) have no rest?

Revelation 14:11, . . . and they have no rest day nor night, . . . . .

 

[Van]

Revelation 14:11, . . . and they have no rest day nor night, . . . . .

Folks, the issue is not that they have no rest day or night, the issue is the duration, when being tormented or when the smoke of their torment ascends forever?

Certainly when they are being tormented, but possibly also afterwards they have no rest for eternity. Anyone who claims the verse answers that question is teaching conjecture as dogma.

 

[Van]

Eternal punishment versus eternal torment is an imposed dichotomy.
Matthew 25:41, . . . everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: . . . .

Revelation 20:10, And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Matthew 25:46, . . . these shall go away into everlasting punishment: . . . .

The claim eternal punishment is the same as eternal torment is imposed dogma.
The issue is not the fact that the devil suffers eternal torment, the issue is the claim humans suffer the same thing.

Eternal torment cannot be ruled out from scripture, but neither can it be explicitly supported.

 

[37818]

Folks, the issue is not that they have no rest day or night, the issue is the duration, when being tormented or when the smoke of their torment ascends forever?

Certainly when they are being tormented, but possibly also afterwards they have no rest for eternity. Anyone who claims the verse answers that question is teaching conjecture as dogma.

It seems the issue is you don't want to accept the Biblical understanding of eternal torment.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Hebrews 9:27. 'And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after that the judgment.'
Matt. 25:46. "And these will go away into everlasting [Gk. 'aionios'] punishment, but the righteous into eternal [Gk. 'aionios'] life."
Luke 13:28 etc. "There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

 

[Van]

It seems the issue is you don't want to accept the Biblical understanding of eternal torment.

Please stay on topic and cease and desist petty personality posts addressing me rather than the topic.

 

[Van]

Hebrews 9:27. 'And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after that the judgment.'
Matt. 25:46. "And these will go away into everlasting [Gk. 'aionios'] punishment, but the righteous into eternal [Gk. 'aionios'] life."
Luke 13:28 etc. "There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

None of the above doctrines are in dispute!
1) Eternal Punishment is well supported biblical doctrine. Just what kind of punishment is in dispute.
2) In the realm of darkness, separated from God, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth is well supported biblical doctrine. The duration of the suffering is in dispute.
3) There are no second chances after a person physically dies, but only judgment, is a well supported biblical doctrine. Just what the adverse punishment will be, Eternal Torment or punishment that is final and eternal is in dispute.

Bottom line, denied by all the bonkers Eternal Punishment crowd is that the bible does not say exactly what the eternal punishment might be.

 

[37818]

Please stay on topic and cease and desist petty personality posts addressing me rather than the topic.

Eternal punishment is the essential teaching from the beginning.

Eternal punishment versus eternal torment is an imposed dichotomy.
Matthew 25:41, . . . everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: . . . .

Revelation 20:10, And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Matthew 25:46, . . . these shall go away into everlasting punishment: . . . .

Matthew 3:11-12, . . . and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Mark 9:47-48, . . . to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

 

[Van]

Eternal punishment is the essential teaching from the beginning.

Good Grief, "1) Eternal Punishment is well supported biblical doctrine. Just what kind of punishment is in dispute."

Pointless posts of profundity provide presumption of positive proof.

 

[JesusFan]

None of the above doctrines are in dispute!
1) Eternal Punishment is well supported biblical doctrine. Just what kind of punishment is in dispute.
2) In the realm of darkness, separated from God, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth is well supported biblical doctrine. The duration of the suffering is in dispute.
3) There are no second chances after a person physically dies, but only judgment, is a well supported biblical doctrine. Just what the adverse punishment will be, Eternal Torment or punishment that is final and eternal is in dispute.

Bottom line, denied by all the bonkers Eternal Punishment crowd is that the bible does not say exactly what the eternal punishment might be.

It does, will be eternal separation from God, and bearing the wrath of God due to us as sinners , and the same term describing how long heaven is was one used for Hell, its eternal

 

[37818]

Good Grief, "1) Eternal Punishment is well supported biblical doctrine. Just what kind of punishment is in dispute."

Pointless posts of profundity provide presumption of positive proof.

There is no Biblical grounds for "everlasting punishment" Matthew 25:46 to exclude eternal torment, Matthew 25:41, Revelation 20:10.