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Saved Without Hearing The Gospel?
- Thread starter MrW
- Start date
Apparently "Gnostic" is the Baptist Board equivalent of the secular epithet, "Nazi!" If you don't agree with someone just call them a Gnostic and then see if it sticks! 
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Agreed
I have no problem with the proclamation of the gospel, those that hear the gospel message are responsible to make a choice. I just do not limit God in how or why He will save.
There is no other name, not Zeus, not Buddha, not Joseph Smith etc. Only God can save and He has chosen to save those that believe in Him.
That is why I say people have a fre will with which to choose to trust in God or to reject Him.
Just as I have been saying. God is the same in the OT and the NT.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
As I said before, I see Him looking at the persons heart and not needing the words. You seem to be focused on the words.
Did you not see where I said that those that hear the gospel message are responsible for how they respond to it.
Just as I said "When the bible says He desires all to be saved and that man has no excuse for not knowing Him and will judge people for not turning to Him in faith and you then add that He will only save in the way you think He can then it is you that is making God disingenuous."
Your view is your position and I say God can and does save those who trust in Him however that trust comes about.
Not putting words in your mouth just stating what you say your position is.
Have you not read Heb 11? You say they were not saved and I say they were. So it is just a matter of how we understand
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith,
Then you are saying all these men got it wrong.
Thank you for agreeing that we are saved by faith which is just what I have been saying.
Absolutely. It is faith in God who saves. You just want to restrict how someone can come to trust in God and I do not. By your understanding no one was saved before the cross. I disagree and so does the bible
The same God {Jehovah = the existing one} that saved in the OT is the same God that saves in the NT.
They were saved without the gospel before the cross and can be saved without the gospel after the cross. It is faith in God that saves not the words.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Apparently "Gnostic" is the Baptist Board equivalent of the secular epithet, "Nazi!" If you don't agree with someone just call them a Gnostic and then see if it sticks!
Remember what I said John. You say there is only one way to come to salvation, via the gospel. I say that God can use various means to draw people to Himself not just the gospel.
So I asked:
Do you have a direct line to the mind of God. Do you have Gnostic insights to all the reasons for what He chooses to do?
So contrary to what you think I did not call you a Gnostic.
So, who does limit God? Not me. God is omnipotent. He can save however He chooses to save. But as many passages that I have quoted show, He has chosen not to save anyone apart from faith in His Son, Jesus Christ.
Absolutely. Now, Billy Graham held the position that those heathen religions somehow draw people to the true God so that they can be saved without Christ Jesus. Is that what you believe?
Glad to know you are not a hyper-Calvinist then. I apologize for characterizing you thus.
Yes, He is. However, those are two different covenants: the Old Covenant (Testament) and the New Covenant (Testament). God works in different ways in different eras, or otherwise the differentiation that God Himself makes between the OT and the NT is meaningless.
Do you not see that these two sentences are contradictory?
In NT times, yes, only one way. One more time what Jesus said and you refuse to interact with: "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man cometh unto the Father but by Me" (John 14:6). That is exactly what I believe. There is only one way to God and that is through Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior.
Naw, you just threw the term out there and hoped it would stick!
Tell you what, I'll cut you a break and just figure you don't really understand Gnosticism or you wouldn't use the term on a fellow believer: the dualistic theology proper, the demiurges between God (completely spirit) and the physical earth (completely matter), spirit as being good and matter as being evil, the sacrifice of Jesus as being the taking on of evil human form, etc.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
There is the difference as we se it. I see God as saving all those that trust in Him. Whether that trust is via the gospel, creation, conviction of sin etc. I just do not feel I am in the position to tell God what He can do with His creation.
Yes I know the OT & NT are different covenants but God does not change.
God did send His son so that those that trust in Him can be saved. That is why we spread the gospel message.
Salvation is still by grace through faith.
I think we've reached an impasse here, and I'm pretty busy right now. I feel I've posted a bunch of stuff that you don't respond to, so I see no need to keep debating here. Have a good one.
37818
Well-Known Member
Natural Revelation, Psalms 19:4, Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world.
Romans 10:17-18, So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
Romans 2:11-16, For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; ) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Revelation 20:15, And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Romans 10:17-18, So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
Romans 2:11-16, For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; ) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Revelation 20:15, And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
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Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Those two sentences are not contradictory. Just as I do believe John 14:6 Jesus is God incarnate and those that believe in Him will be saved just as we saw in Luke 7:50 It is by grace we are saved through faith.
As in the OT it is in the NT.
Now you can read minds. If I had wanted to call you a Gnostic then that is just what I would have said.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
I agree, we will just have to agree to disagree on this particular subject.
Have a good day John.
There is only one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ. There is no way to trust God except through Jesus Christ. No man knows the Father except the Son reveals Him. Wherefore they entered not in, because of unbelief. Believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved. He that climbs into the sheepfold by any way than the Door, Jesus Christ, is s thief and a robber. Cast into outer darkness those who come to the wedding feast without a wedding garment. God is indeed Sovereign over salvation and He command all to come by the way, truth, and light, our Saviour or our Judge. Christ Jesus shed His blood unto death to save men. Accept no substitute.
I will add, the Father did not die for you.
The Holy Spirit did not die for you.
Jesus Christ alone died for you and sprinkled His blood on the Mercy Seat in Heaven and satisfied the wrath of God against sinners.
Jews won’t get to God except through Christ.
Neither will musims, buddhists, hindus, atheists, nor the average, every day, run-of-the-mill sinners. All in Adam are lost and headed to their own place in the lake of fire; all in Christ are saved and headed to their place with God in eternity. God does not give us door 1, 2, and 3 and all open to Heaven. There is one door, the Lord Jesus Christ.
The Holy Spirit did not die for you.
Jesus Christ alone died for you and sprinkled His blood on the Mercy Seat in Heaven and satisfied the wrath of God against sinners.
Jews won’t get to God except through Christ.
Neither will musims, buddhists, hindus, atheists, nor the average, every day, run-of-the-mill sinners. All in Adam are lost and headed to their own place in the lake of fire; all in Christ are saved and headed to their place with God in eternity. God does not give us door 1, 2, and 3 and all open to Heaven. There is one door, the Lord Jesus Christ.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
So who was the mediator in OT times?
Gen 15:6 And he believed H539 (H8689) in the LORD H3068, and He accounted H2803 (H8799) it to him for righteousness H6666.
H3068
- Original: יהוה
- Transliteration: Y@hovah
- Phonetic: yeh-ho-vaw’
- Definition: Jehovah = the existing one
1. the proper name of the one true God
Rom 4:3 For G1063 what G5101 does the Scripture G1124 say G3004 (G5719)? G1161 "Abraham G11 believed G4100 (G5656) God G2316, and G2532 it was accounted G3049 (G5681) to him G846 for G1519 righteousness G1343."
G2316
- Original: θεός
- Transliteration: theos
- Phonetic: theh’-os
- Definition:
2. the Godhead, trinity
a. God the father, the first person in the trinity
b. Christ, the second person of the trinity
c. Holy spirit, the third person in the trinity
God draws all people to Himself via various means and those that respond in trust/faith will be saved. We see this in the OT and unless you think God changes it is still in effect today.
We are told that man has no excuse for not knowing Him and God will judge man for how he responds to that knowledge.
So unless you are a calvinist that thinks only a select few can be saved you have to deal with the desire of God for all to be saved the fact that Christ said all would be drawn and God holds man responsible for the choices he makes.
We aren’t talking OT. We sre talking post-Cross, post-resurrection.
I am not promoting Calvinism. YOU are. You think people can be saved apart from Christ. Cslvinists believe that.
I believe the Lord Jesus was perfectly clear. No one comes to the except through Him.
Period. It is literally heresy to teach other ways for lost sinners to come to God.
Psalms Chapter 87
Chapter 87 | |
1 | A Psalm of the sons of Korah; a Song. His foundation is in the holy mountains. |
2 | Jehovah loveth the gates of Zion More than all the dwellings of Jacob. |
3 | Glorious things are spoken of thee, O city of God. Selah |
4 | I will make mention of Rahab and Babylon as among them that know me: Behold, Philistia, and Tyre, with Ethiopia: This one was born there. |
5 | Yea, of Zion it shall be said, This one and that one was born in her; And the Most High himself will establish her. |
6 | Jehovah will count, when he writeth up the peoples, This one was born there. Selah |
7 | They that sing as well as they that dance shall say, All my fountains are in thee. |
Galatians 4
26 | and the Jerusalem above is the free-woman, which is mother of us all, |
John 3
7 | 'Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above; |
8 | the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.' |
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Just as they did in the OT, through faith in God. Do you think God changes? Is God not sovereign? We are saved by grace through faith.
If people hear the gospel they are responsible for how they respond to the message. Why do you think that those that trust in God through the various means He has provided are not saved. He says they are responsible so why do you not think they are?
You are trying to separate the OT from the NT.
Isa 45:21... Was it not I, the LORD? There is no other God but Me, a righteous God and Savior; there is none but Me.
Isa 45:22 Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.
Was Jesus not the means to get to the Father in the OT?
Isa 9:2 The people walking in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of the shadow of death, a light has dawned.
Mat 4:16 the people living in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of the shadow of death, a light has dawned.”
@MrW I do think you have misunderstood what I am saying. Let me make this clear for you.
We are only saved by trusting in the Triune God. The same Lord that was the mediator between man and the Father in the OT is the same Lord that is the mediator between man and the Father in NT.
I am not saying that Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Atheists or anyone else can be saved by trusting in what they think is God. But all of them could be saved by trusting in the God of creation.
Jehovah = the existing one
1. the proper name of the one true God
Isa 55:6 Seek the LORD while he may be found, call upon him while he is near;
Isa 55:7 let the wicked forsake their way, and the unrighteous their thoughts; let them return to the LORD, that he may have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
Jer 29:13 When you search for me, you will find me; if you seek me with all your heart,
Luk 11:9 So I say to you, Ask, and it will be given you; search, and you will find; knock, and the door will be opened for you.
Luk 11:10 For everyone who asks receives, and everyone who searches finds, and for everyone who knocks, the door will be opened.
Luk 13:24 Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able.
Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, {G2316} for whoever would approach him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
G2316
- Original: θεός
- Transliteration: theos
- Phonetic: theh’-os
- Definition:
2. the Godhead, trinity
a. God the father, the first person in the trinity
b. Christ, the second person of the trinity
c. Holy spirit, the third person in the trinity
3. spoken of the only and true God
You say that one can only be saved if they hear the gospel message. I say that the God of the bible does not change, He saved people that trusted in Him in the OT and He still does the same in the NT.
Those that hear the gospel are responsible for how they respond to it but to say He cannot save people now as He did in the OT times IMO is to deny the word of God.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
We are talking both OT & NT as God does not change.
Calvinism, not even close. Calvinism, only a select group can be saved, Bible all of humanity can be saved.
God desires all to come to Him and has provide the means for man to know Him. God is not limited by man opinions.
Creation, so we have no excuse. Rom 1:18-20
Conviction of Sin, so we have no excuse Joh 16:8-11
Gospel message, so we have no excuse Rom 1:16
Whether in the OT or NT we only come to God through faith in Him. The second person of the Trinity was called Lord in the OT and Jesus in the NT. He was and is the mediator in the OT and in the NT. As the bible says "For by grace you have been saved through faith,..."
I believe the bible is perfectly clear that God saves those that believe in Him.
Good thing I am not teaching a non-biblical view then isn't it.
Reading the comments here I think the biblical definition of salvation differs from one poster to the next and it causes confusion because it is misunderstood. I would say that being "saved" is a New Testament doctrine and it is specifically by believing what God the Father of Jesus Christ says about his son. Salvation occurs when a person receives the gift of life, which is the Spirit of Christ who was poured out of his body on the cross. If there would have been any other way for God to save sinners then Jesus would not have had to die.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
In V 21 the promise to which God has been aiming history is to give life and righteousness to the world. Verse 22 says the promise, which the context tells us is the Spirit, is by faith of Jesus Christ and is given to them who believe in what God says about him.
If this is the biblical doctrine of salvation, and it is, then obviously OT saints were not saved because God had not told them this. None of them had the indwelling Spirit by believing. But they were justified by faith because faith in what God says to us is a constant from beginning to end and it is the means by which God counts men as righteous, until Jesus came. God, the Judge of all the earth justified men by imputing their faith in what he said to them for righteousness. Now the Bible tells us that Christ is our justification.
Ro 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
Sinners are always justified by faith in every age but not by believing the same things. Justification is not by works in any way but it is not ever without works. Read Hebrews 11 to see what justified men across the ages believed and then look at how that belief was confirmed to others. It was by their obedience to what God said. In that chapter God would tell us what he said to them and then he would tell us what they did. In a transitional shift Jesus Christ when he offered himself to Israel as the promised Messiah of Israel and the the son of God in Mark 1, this became the message that justified those Israelites who believed it. It was called the "gospel of the kingdom of God" and it was at hand because the King was in their midst.
Mt 16:13 ¶ When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
6 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Joh 6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
8 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
Joh 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
It is instructive to read at the end of the gospel accounts that Jesus Christ rebuked every one of the apostles and disciples for not believing that he had risen from the dead, thinking that the death of Jesus Christ had put an end to his Messiahship. These were justified men by believing what God told them and justified men cannot be lost by not believing something else, otherwise God's justification means nothing. Later, on the day of Christ's resurrection, he breathed on them, giving them the Spirit, which is salvation, the renewal of the image of God through Christ.
Now, all those who were previously justified under OT economies have received the Spirit and have been raised from the dead as the first-fruits of the harvest and are in heaven with God.
Rom4:20 He (Abraham) staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised (that he and Sarah would have a son), he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it (his believe that the promise of God was true) was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 ¶ Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us (after the cross and resurrection of Jesus Christ) also, to whom it (righteousness) shall be imputed, if we believe on him (God the Father) that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; See Ga 1:1.
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
In V 21 the promise to which God has been aiming history is to give life and righteousness to the world. Verse 22 says the promise, which the context tells us is the Spirit, is by faith of Jesus Christ and is given to them who believe in what God says about him.
If this is the biblical doctrine of salvation, and it is, then obviously OT saints were not saved because God had not told them this. None of them had the indwelling Spirit by believing. But they were justified by faith because faith in what God says to us is a constant from beginning to end and it is the means by which God counts men as righteous, until Jesus came. God, the Judge of all the earth justified men by imputing their faith in what he said to them for righteousness. Now the Bible tells us that Christ is our justification.
Ro 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
Sinners are always justified by faith in every age but not by believing the same things. Justification is not by works in any way but it is not ever without works. Read Hebrews 11 to see what justified men across the ages believed and then look at how that belief was confirmed to others. It was by their obedience to what God said. In that chapter God would tell us what he said to them and then he would tell us what they did. In a transitional shift Jesus Christ when he offered himself to Israel as the promised Messiah of Israel and the the son of God in Mark 1, this became the message that justified those Israelites who believed it. It was called the "gospel of the kingdom of God" and it was at hand because the King was in their midst.
Mt 16:13 ¶ When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
6 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Joh 6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
8 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
Joh 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
It is instructive to read at the end of the gospel accounts that Jesus Christ rebuked every one of the apostles and disciples for not believing that he had risen from the dead, thinking that the death of Jesus Christ had put an end to his Messiahship. These were justified men by believing what God told them and justified men cannot be lost by not believing something else, otherwise God's justification means nothing. Later, on the day of Christ's resurrection, he breathed on them, giving them the Spirit, which is salvation, the renewal of the image of God through Christ.
Now, all those who were previously justified under OT economies have received the Spirit and have been raised from the dead as the first-fruits of the harvest and are in heaven with God.
Rom4:20 He (Abraham) staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised (that he and Sarah would have a son), he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it (his believe that the promise of God was true) was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 ¶ Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us (after the cross and resurrection of Jesus Christ) also, to whom it (righteousness) shall be imputed, if we believe on him (God the Father) that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; See Ga 1:1.
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
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