Saved Without Hearing The Gospel?

[Silverhair]

John

John 14:6. Acts 4:12. Acts 10:43.

There’s another thing we have to understand. God put up with people’s ignorance in the past, but after the cross of Christ, there is only one way to be saved, and that is trusting in the Lord Jesus. If someone wants to know the living God, God will send someone to tell them about Jesus. There is no other way.

And those that hear the gospel message will be judged by how they respond to the gospel message. Where we differ is that I say God does not change. He still saves those that trust in Him through whatever means God uses to draw them to Himself.

 

[John of Japan]

Apparently "Gnostic" is the Baptist Board equivalent of the secular epithet, "Nazi!" If you don't agree with someone just call them a Gnostic and then see if it sticks!

 

[Silverhair]

And Jesus is God, the second person of the trinity.

Agreed

So, God's Word says that there must be someone to proclaim Christ, but you say that is not true, do you not? I don't want to misrepresent you, but you have not dealt with this Scripture yet.

I have no problem with the proclamation of the gospel, those that hear the gospel message are responsible to make a choice. I just do not limit God in how or why He will save.

Again, many other verses prove it is "only through Jesus." For example, here is Acts 4:12: "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

There is no other name, not Zeus, not Buddha, not Joseph Smith etc. Only God can save and He has chosen to save those that believe in Him.

There is no guarantee of obedience, or otherwise the sentence would be a statement of fact, not an imperative.

That is why I say people have a fre will with which to choose to trust in God or to reject Him.

Absolutely: Jesus, the second person of the trinity, is the Savior in both the OT and the NT.

Just as I have been saying. God is the same in the OT and the NT.

 

[Silverhair]

How does my view portray God as "less loving" than yours?

As I said before, I see Him looking at the persons heart and not needing the words. You seem to be focused on the words.

In fact, you appear to have not even noticed what I wrote about God sending a missionary to anyone who sought Him.

Did you not see where I said that those that hear the gospel message are responsible for how they respond to it.

What in the world are you talking about?

Just as I said "When the bible says He desires all to be saved and that man has no excuse for not knowing Him and will judge people for not turning to Him in faith and you then add that He will only save in the way you think He can then it is you that is making God disingenuous."

Your view is your position and I say God can and does save those who trust in Him however that trust comes about.

Again you are being ridiculous, and trying to put words into my mouth.

Not putting words in your mouth just stating what you say your position is.

Now, again I ask. Please give an example of a testimony of someone who came to salvation without Christ. I asked before and you ignored it.

Have you not read Heb 11? You say they were not saved and I say they were. So it is just a matter of how we understand
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith,

Well of course. But this does not prove your view.

Then you are saying all these men got it wrong.

Absolutely!! Saved by faith. Do you forget so soon how I quoted "The just shall live by faith" early in this thread?

Thank you for agreeing that we are saved by faith which is just what I have been saying.

Yes, absolutely. It is faith in God who saves. And, there is the passage in Rom. 10 you have yet to comment on: "How shall they hear without a preacher.

Absolutely. It is faith in God who saves. You just want to restrict how someone can come to trust in God and I do not. By your understanding no one was saved before the cross. I disagree and so does the bible

Yes, absolutely, it is Jesus the 2nd person of the trinity. Without meeting Jesus no one can be saved.

The same God {Jehovah = the existing one} that saved in the OT is the same God that saves in the NT.

They were saved without the gospel before the cross and can be saved without the gospel after the cross. It is faith in God that saves not the words.

 

[Silverhair]

Apparently "Gnostic" is the Baptist Board equivalent of the secular epithet, "Nazi!" If you don't agree with someone just call them a Gnostic and then see if it sticks!

Remember what I said John. You say there is only one way to come to salvation, via the gospel. I say that God can use various means to draw people to Himself not just the gospel.

So I asked:
Do you have a direct line to the mind of God. Do you have Gnostic insights to all the reasons for what He chooses to do?

So contrary to what you think I did not call you a Gnostic.

 

[John of Japan]

I have no problem with the proclamation of the gospel, those that hear the gospel message are responsible to make a choice. I just do not limit God in how or why He will save.

So, who does limit God? Not me. God is omnipotent. He can save however He chooses to save. But as many passages that I have quoted show, He has chosen not to save anyone apart from faith in His Son, Jesus Christ.

There is no other name, not Zeus, not Buddha, not Joseph Smith etc. Only God can save and He has chosen to save those that believe in Him.

Absolutely. Now, Billy Graham held the position that those heathen religions somehow draw people to the true God so that they can be saved without Christ Jesus. Is that what you believe?

That is why I say people have a fre will with which to choose to trust in God or to reject Him.

Glad to know you are not a hyper-Calvinist then. I apologize for characterizing you thus.

Just as I have been saying. God is the same in the OT and the NT.

Yes, He is. However, those are two different covenants: the Old Covenant (Testament) and the New Covenant (Testament). God works in different ways in different eras, or otherwise the differentiation that God Himself makes between the OT and the NT is meaningless.

 

[John of Japan]

Remember what I said John. You say there is only one way to come to salvation, via the gospel. I say that God can use various means to draw people to Himself not just the gospel.

Do you not see that these two sentences are contradictory?

In NT times, yes, only one way. One more time what Jesus said and you refuse to interact with: "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man cometh unto the Father but by Me" (John 14:6). That is exactly what I believe. There is only one way to God and that is through Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior.

So I asked:
Do you have a direct line to the mind of God. Do you have Gnostic insights to all the reasons for what He chooses to do?

So contrary to what you think I did not call you a Gnostic.

Naw, you just threw the term out there and hoped it would stick! Tell you what, I'll cut you a break and just figure you don't really understand Gnosticism or you wouldn't use the term on a fellow believer: the dualistic theology proper, the demiurges between God (completely spirit) and the physical earth (completely matter), spirit as being good and matter as being evil, the sacrifice of Jesus as being the taking on of evil human form, etc.

 

[Silverhair]

So, who does limit God? Not me. God is omnipotent. He can save however He chooses to save. But as many passages that I have quoted show, He has chosen not to save anyone apart from faith in His Son, Jesus Christ.

There is the difference as we se it. I see God as saving all those that trust in Him. Whether that trust is via the gospel, creation, conviction of sin etc. I just do not feel I am in the position to tell God what He can do with His creation.

Yes, He is. However, those are two different covenants: the Old Covenant (Testament) and the New Covenant (Testament). God works in different ways in different eras, or otherwise the differentiation that God Himself makes between the OT and the NT is meaningless.

Yes I know the OT & NT are different covenants but God does not change.

God did send His son so that those that trust in Him can be saved. That is why we spread the gospel message.

Salvation is still by grace through faith.

 

[John of Japan]

There is the difference as we se it. I see God as saving all those that trust in Him. Whether that trust is via the gospel, creation, conviction of sin etc. I just do not feel I am in the position to tell God what He can do with His creation.


Yes I know the OT & NT are different covenants but God does not change.

God did send His son so that those that trust in Him can be saved. That is why we spread the gospel message.

Salvation is still by grace through faith.

I think we've reached an impasse here, and I'm pretty busy right now. I feel I've posted a bunch of stuff that you don't respond to, so I see no need to keep debating here. Have a good one.

 

[37818]

Natural Revelation, Psalms 19:4, Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world.

Romans 10:17-18, So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

Romans 2:11-16, For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; ) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Revelation 20:15, And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Silverhair]

Do you not see that these two sentences are contradictory?

In NT times, yes, only one way. One more time what Jesus said and you refuse to interact with: "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man cometh unto the Father but by Me" (John 14:6). That is exactly what I believe. There is only one way to God and that is through Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior.

Those two sentences are not contradictory. Just as I do believe John 14:6 Jesus is God incarnate and those that believe in Him will be saved just as we saw in Luke 7:50 It is by grace we are saved through faith.

As in the OT it is in the NT.

Naw, you just threw the term out there and hoped it would stick!

Now you can read minds. If I had wanted to call you a Gnostic then that is just what I would have said.

 

[Silverhair]

I think we've reached an impasse here, and I'm pretty busy right now. I feel I've posted a bunch of stuff that you don't respond to, so I see no need to keep debating here. Have a good one.

I agree, we will just have to agree to disagree on this particular subject.

Have a good day John.

 

[MrW]

And those that hear the gospel message will be judged by how they respond to the gospel message. Where we differ is that I say God does not change. He still saves those that trust in Him through whatever means God uses to draw them to Himself.

There is only one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ. There is no way to trust God except through Jesus Christ. No man knows the Father except the Son reveals Him. Wherefore they entered not in, because of unbelief. Believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved. He that climbs into the sheepfold by any way than the Door, Jesus Christ, is s thief and a robber. Cast into outer darkness those who come to the wedding feast without a wedding garment. God is indeed Sovereign over salvation and He command all to come by the way, truth, and light, our Saviour or our Judge. Christ Jesus shed His blood unto death to save men. Accept no substitute.

 

[MrW]

I will add, the Father did not die for you.
The Holy Spirit did not die for you.
Jesus Christ alone died for you and sprinkled His blood on the Mercy Seat in Heaven and satisfied the wrath of God against sinners.

Jews won’t get to God except through Christ.
Neither will musims, buddhists, hindus, atheists, nor the average, every day, run-of-the-mill sinners. All in Adam are lost and headed to their own place in the lake of fire; all in Christ are saved and headed to their place with God in eternity. God does not give us door 1, 2, and 3 and all open to Heaven. There is one door, the Lord Jesus Christ.