Saved Without Hearing The Gospel?

[Charlie24]

I mostly agree with this, but I do think there is evidence of faith in Adam and Eve because of their son Abel, who was said to be righteous, and I think that was because of parental training. Abel knew the correct sacrifice to make.

I lean the other way, there is nothing good that God said about Adam after he fell from innocence.

But you could be right! I won't argue that.

 

[canadyjd]

The Messiah was not hidden, but spoken of plainly. Scripture testifies the OT Saints were saved by faith in God’s promise of the coming messiah. Why haven’t you addressed Hebrews 11?

I understand it runs contrary to your dispensationalism, but it is very clear.

Again, we are speaking past each other and making no progress in this discussion.

I’ll leave you to it.

Peace to you

 

[Silverhair]

Here's a big problem with the idea that a sinner does not need to hear the Gospel to be saved. "14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!" (Rom. 10:14-15). So God's clear plan is the proclamation of the Gospel. There are no Scriptures that say God saves anyone apart from the Gospel, though He certainly could if it were His His plan. To say that God saves people outside of the Gospel is to look for Scripture that is not there.

Now here is a practical problem with the view that God saves people without the Gospel. Where are they? Have you ever heard a single testimony from such a person? Have you ever met such a person? God has graciously allowed me to spend 33 years giving the Gospel to the Japanese. But I gave the Gospel hundreds of times in the US before going there. I have preached the Word in 6 different countries, and never one single time have I ever met someone who had a testimony of being saved before hearing the Gospel.

If there were such a person, Don Richardson would certainly have written about him in his book Eternity in Their Hearts. Are you familiar with it? Richardson chronicles people groups all over the world with legends or customs that prepared them to hear the Gospel. My favorite of those stories is of the Karen tribespeople in Burma, who had a tradition that a white man with a precious book by God. Secular visitors recorded the tradition, and once a Muslim even visited with a Quran. However, it was when the Christian missionaries finally arrived with the Bible and the Gospel that the Karen tribe turned to Christ en masse.

So again, if there were people saved without the Gospel, where are they? I suppose I have close to 100 books on missions and reaching the world for Christ, and I teach "Advanced Missions" and "The History of Missions" in our Bible college. But never in all of my years have I heard or read a testimony of someone saved without the Gospel.


It is not limiting the sovereign God to say that He Himself limits salvation to those who hear the Gospel. God can certainly save without the Gospel if He wants to. But His plan (cf Greek boule, βουλή) is that the Gospel be the means of people getting saved through the death of Christ on the cross. As Paul said, "For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel (boule) of God" (Acts 20:27). God only has one plan of salvation.

@John of Japan I am not saying that people are not saved through the gospel message but I am not willing to limit God in why He will choose to save people.

I look at those in the OT and read Paul's words in Romans and I see that God reaches out to people by various means and what I see is a loving God that desires that all come to repentance and a knowledge of the truth.

If you want to limit what God can do that is your choice but I trust the sovereign God to do as He sees as right.

As I see it even the ones who trusted in God prior to hearing the gospel were saved they just did not know of Christ Jesus.

We are told we are saved by grace through faith and that is what I believe. Now whether the person comes to that faith/trust in God through creation, conviction of sin or hearing the gospel message it is still faith/trust in God.

Thankfully God looks at the heart and does not judge by our words.

 

[Charlie24]

The Messiah was not hidden, but spoken of plainly. Scripture testifies the OT Saints were saved by faith in God’s promise of the coming messiah. Why haven’t you addressed Hebrews 11?

I understand it runs contrary to your dispensationalism, but it is very clear.

Again, we are speaking past each other and making no progress in this discussion.

I’ll leave you to it.

Peace to you

The faith in Heb. 11 is faith in God and His promises, those promises included a coming Messiah.

Some had a distant understanding of this and some did not, especially the pagan Gentiles.

Heb. 11 is demonstrating justification by faith from the time of Abel before the Law, and after the Law. Salvation has always been by faith.

When Christ came the Scripture makes it clear that faith must be specifically in Christ and His finished work, or you will die in your sins.

The author of Hebrews tells us the Hebrews in the wilderness were given the Gospel. The Gospel was spread on the doorposts and over the doors of their homes in Blood the night the angel of death came. When He seen the Blood, He passed over them. Moses told them that God would raise up a prophet among them like me, and to Him you will listen.

God has reached out to many pagan Gentiles who did not have this knowledge, and He saved them by faith (the ones who would believe Him) in His promise of a coming Messiah.

 

[John of Japan]

@John of Japan I am not saying that people are not saved through the gospel message but I am not willing to limit God in why He will choose to save people.

I look at those in the OT and read Paul's words in Romans and I see that God reaches out to people by various means and what I see is a loving God that desires that all come to repentance and a knowledge of the truth.

Please don't confuse general (natural) revelation in Rom. 1 with the salvific message given through special revelation. God sees those who seek Him outside of normal missionary activity, but then guides preachers to them to give them the Gospel. Rom. 1 says nowhere that God will save without the Gospel message. You've given no Scripture to prove your point.

If you want to limit what God can do that is your choice but I trust the sovereign God to do as He sees as right.

Reading this, I'm not sure you are actually paying attention to what I wrote. I agreed completely that God can save without the Gospel. He can also crash the moon into the earth, but He doesn't. God can save without the Gospel, but He chooses not to. If you disagree, please give Scripture instead of speculation.

As I see it even the ones who trusted in God prior to hearing the gospel were saved they just did not know of Christ Jesus.

We are told we are saved by grace through faith and that is what I believe. Now whether the person comes to that faith/trust in God through creation, conviction of sin or hearing the gospel message it is still faith/trust in God.

Again, this confuses general and special revelation. Rom. 1 is the key passage that teaches general revelation. Where in that passage or any other does it say that a lost soul can be saved without the Gospel. You have yet to give Scripture.

Thankfully God looks at the heart and does not judge by our words.

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Jer. 17:9).

I bear personal witness that people in a Buddhist or Shinto society do not seek God for salvation without the Gospel. These religions (like Islam, Hinduism, etc.) are completely self centered. Zen Buddhism, for example, is a completely introspective religion. All Buddhists seek enlightenment and Nirvana, which are both completely self-centered. Shinto is complete idolatry, believing that everything has a "god" in it, so I've seen people bow to trees, mountains, etc. All human religions turn people away from the true God, not to Him.

Again I ask for an example of someone in history who was saved without the Gospel. I've witnessed to 100s, perhaps 1000s of Buddhists and Shintoists, and never met a single person like that.

 

[Charlie24]

There are several examples but for now I'll use this one.

When Christ told the apostles He would be handed over and suffer many things at the hand of the religious leaders and be killed and raised up on the 3rd day, Peter rebuked Christ and said no, this can't happen.

None of the apostles understood the Gospel at that time, but yet they were saved.

The same goes for the Gentiles who God knew would believe in Him but never had access to that knowledge.

 

[canadyjd]

…..

God has reached out to many pagan Gentiles who did not have this knowledge, and He saved them by faith (the ones who would believe Him) in His promise of a coming Messiah.

Wonderful. We agree!!

Peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

There are several examples but for now I'll use this one.

When Christ told the apostles He would be handed over and suffer many things at the hand of the religious leaders and be killed and raised up on the 3rd day, Peter rebuked Christ and said no, this can't happen.

None of the apostles understood the Gospel at that time, but yet they were saved.

The same goes for the Gentiles who God knew would believe in Him but never had access to that knowledge.

Why do you think they were saved at that point? Because they followed Jesus?

Thousands followed Jesus. They all turned away from Him at His crucifixion. Peter denied Him 3 times. Do you think Peter was saved when he denied Jesus with a curse? Did not Jesus say if you deny Him before men, He would deny you before the Father?

The Apostles did not receive God Holy Spirit until after the resurrection. The indwelling Holy Spirit is the proof of salvation and the down payment (pledge promise) from God of the Truth of Jesus as Messiah.

The Apostles came into a right relationship with God (salvation) after the resurrection.

Peace to you

 

[Charlie24]

Why do you think they were saved at that point? Because they followed Jesus?

Thousands followed Jesus. They all turned away from Him at His crucifixion. Peter denied Him 3 times. Do you think Peter was saved when he denied Jesus with a curse? Did not Jesus say if you deny Him before men, He would deny you before the Father?

The Apostles did not receive God Holy Spirit until after the resurrection. The indwelling Holy Spirit is the proof of salvation and the down payment (pledge promise) from God of the Truth of Jesus as Messiah.

The Apostles came into a right relationship with God (salvation) after the resurrection.

Peace to you

If you're that far out of the picture, I'll just leave you there.

There is nothing I can say, or no one else.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I look at those in the OT and read Paul's words in Romans and I see that God reaches out to people by various means and what I see is a loving God that desires that all come to repentance and a knowledge of the truth.

Hebrews 1:1. 'God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in times past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things.'
John 14:6. "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

 

[John of Japan]

There are several examples but for now I'll use this one.

When Christ told the apostles He would be handed over and suffer many things at the hand of the religious leaders and be killed and raised up on the 3rd day, Peter rebuked Christ and said no, this can't happen.

This example doesn't fit the question. Until the cross and resurrection, the disciples were still under the Old Covenant. Their salvation was through faith in the coming Messiah, who of course they believed was Jesus. However, Christ's death for sin and resurrection were a mystery in the Old Covenant: "Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began" Ro 16:25). Therefore, they could not accept that He would die on a cross and rise again, since it was still a mystery to them.

None of the apostles understood the Gospel at that time, but yet they were saved.

Yes, saved by faith in the coming Messiah, not the Messiah who had come.

The same goes for the Gentiles who God knew would believe in Him but never had access to that knowledge.

I'm really not sure who you mean by this.

 

[Charlie24]

This example doesn't fit the question. Until the cross and resurrection, the disciples were still under the Old Covenant. Their salvation was through faith in the coming Messiah, who of course they believed was Jesus. However, Christ's death for sin and resurrection were a mystery in the Old Covenant: "Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began" Ro 16:25). Therefore, they could not accept that He would die on a cross and rise again, since it was still a mystery to them.


Yes, saved by faith in the coming Messiah, not the Messiah who had come.

I'm really not sure who you mean by this.

That makes two of us who don't understand what's being said.

My point is that the OT saints could be saved without understanding the Gospel message that we now understand so well.

 

[John of Japan]

That makes two of us who don't understand what's being said.

My point is that the OT saints could be saved without understanding the Gospel message that we now understand so well.

Hopefully we agree, then. But when I wrote that I didn't understand, it was in reaction to this you wrote: "The same goes for the Gentiles who God knew would believe in Him but never had access to that knowledge."

What Gentiles were you speaking of?

 

[Charlie24]

Hopefully we agree, then. But when I wrote that I didn't understand, it was in reaction to this you wrote: "The same goes for the Gentiles who God knew would believe in Him but never had access to that knowledge."

What Gentiles were you speaking of?

The Gentiles like Rahab, Naaman, the Ninevites that repented at Jonah's preaching.

All the Gentiles that lived before Christ who lived in pagan lands with knowledge of pagan gods and no knowledge of the One True God and His Christ.

 

[Zaatar71]

That makes two of us who don't understand what's being said.

My point is that the OT saints could be saved without understanding the Gospel message that we now understand so well.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

 

[Charlie24]

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Exactly right, Z.

Whether you believe God actually spoke to Abraham or revealed this to him in a dream or vision, doesn't matter.

What matters is that Abraham wouldn't have known anything about the coming the Christ if God hadn't revealed it to him.

Abraham was different in that through his seed would come the Christ, the Savior of the world.

I could be wrong, but I'm thinking God didn't reveal this to every individual before Christ came and was revealed in person.

So this means all the Gentiles had no knowledge of the coming Christ, or the Gospel.

But the Hebrews that came out of Egypt did receive the Gospel but much later after Abraham.

 

[Charlie24]

Exactly right, Z.

Whether you believe God actually spoke to Abraham or revealed this to him in a dream or vision, doesn't matter.

What matters is that Abraham wouldn't have known anything about the coming the Christ if God hadn't revealed it to him.

Abraham was different in that through his seed would come the Christ, the Savior of the world.

I could be wrong, but I'm thinking God didn't reveal this to every individual before Christ came and was revealed in person.

So this means all the Gentiles had no knowledge of the coming Christ, or the Gospel.

But the Hebrews that came out of Egypt did receive the Gospel but much later after Abraham.

It's even possible that Abraham passed down this knowledge to Isaac, then to Jacob, then to his sons, the 12 tribes.

But the point I'm making is that the Gentiles in pagan lands had no way of knowing.

 

[Charlie24]

It's even possible that Abraham passed down this knowledge to Isaac, then to Jacob, then to his sons, the 12 tribes.

But the point I'm making is that the Gentiles in pagan lands had no way of knowing.

This takes us back to Rahab, Naaman, and all the rest of Gentiles that were saved before Christ was revealed in person.

They had no knowledge of Christ and the Gospel, and were saved by the faith in Heb. 11, which was faith in the One true God.

Their sins were covered by the Blood of Lamb future tense, by faith in the One true God who promised the Coming Messiah.

If you can understand what I mean, don't know if you do?

 

[Zaatar71]

It's even possible that Abraham passed down this knowledge to Isaac, then to Jacob, then to his sons, the 12 tribes.

But the point I'm making is that the Gentiles in pagan lands had no way of knowing.

That is the point the poster John made to you earlier.he had several posts speaking to this. Martin, and canady have told you correct things also.

 

[Charlie24]

That is the point the poster John made to you earlier.he had several posts speaking to this. Martin, and canady have told you correct things also.

Those are the Hebrews/Jews, the conversation is about the Gentiles who had no way of knowing, unless they came in contact with the Hebrews and learned from them, as some did.

But the rest of the Gentile world didn't know, and God did not pass them by who He knew would believe.