just look at the likes of Rob bell, or Brian Mclaren, who seek to make Christian relevant in the post modern age by making sure their theologies reflect moving to heresy
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In Perils Among False Brethren;
- Thread starter Zaatar71
- Start date
Number 1
on this list has to be
- Leighton Flowers: A former Southern Baptist pastor who now argues against Calvinism and has become a prominent voice for the broader evangelical public on the topic of Calvinism, according to Facebook posts and Reddit users.
No, rather he is suggesting that sometimes those who either misunderstood what Calvinism really teaches, or else are very angry/bitter at it can at times go so far other way they embrace doctrines and theology counter to the Cross itself, ending up with a severe misunderstanding of Pauline Justification
But you take your stance on the full free will gospel, so did Jesus death to you be for a real salvation, or just offering a potential one, as in God looks down from heaven hoping someone can make the right choice and choose Jesus to save them?
ALL of us here who are saved were saved the same way, its just that Calvinism explains it much more from the biblical perspective on how and why God saved us
But when you conclusion in regards to theology proper end ups flying in the face of all the Creeds and Confessions, and the teachings of various expositors over the centuries, NOT just Baptist but across all conservative Christians theologies, that should give us pause to really check to make sure that we are not following just novel theology we made up ourselves
yes, It is often attacked by caricatures and strawmen
Is not when anyone rejects Psa for the atonement they really are reacting to the concept of Jesus enduring the wrath of God for our sake as being "pagan concept? Indeed Cosmic child abuse?"
As have read various authors who used that very terminology when they went against Psa atonement view?
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
So you have just proven that you really do not have good discernment.
Read what he said again but this time without the calvinst filters.
This is just understanding the truth of calvinism 101
"If Calvinism is an error:
The reason most Christians reject it is because they have good discernment.
If Calvinism is true:
The ultimate reason most resist it is because God sovereignly and unchangeably decreed their resistance for His own glory.
I understand that the truth is hard for you to accept but it is for your own good that you step back and take a clear eyed look at what your religion actually teaches.
Brother.
I get that people's emotions are tied up in their beliefs.
I can. and have, referenced my beliefs through the writings of the early church and more contemporary scholars. They are deeply rooted in history. But that does not make my beliefs correct, and their antiquity certainly does not cast a negative light on you for denying them. There are many historically rooted positions.
You and I agree on the text of Scripture (that the words writtdn in the Bible are God's words).
You and I agree that when God judges the people those who are wicked will perish but those who have been conformed into the image of Christ will be justified (you mentioned this last week when pointing out that we are predestined to that righteousness).
So the discussion is about justice in how it relates not to the saved (they will be re-created and in the image of Christ on Judgment Day) and not to the wicked (they will be condemned) but to God Himself.
If God truly "makes us new creations in Christ", "conforms us to the image of Christ", "removes our heart", removes our heart snd spirit, giving us new ones, etc., then we were never in need of Christ being punished instead of us. What we needed was Christ to reconcile mankind to God, Christ to be set forth as a propitiation in His blood, and Christ to become a life giving spirit so that we woukd be reborn, made in His image.
The whole idea of Jesus having to be punished instead of us for our sins has to do with how the law relates to God (not to msn).
If we hold that justice demands God punish sins then God cannot forgive sins without violating the law.
It does not affect us because the "old man" has to cease existing, we have to be made anew.
It has to do with God submitting to what the law requires of Him.
That was a common philosophy at one time (secularly...it comes from the Renaissance Huminianism movement reaching back to Stoic and Roman philosophy to "better" their judicial system).
BUT I do not hold that philosophy. Obviously I do hold a philosophy (we all do) in regard to justice. That just is not the one I hold.
I view justice as restoration of a just state. This may be via punishment (punish the criminal) or it may be via reform (make the criminal not a criminal). So I view God as able to be just via the law (punishment) but also apart from the law (recreating men so as to remove guilt, creating them in the image of Christ).
We simply disagree about justice.
Hello JohnC,What is on your mind?
Yes, Ithink to a certain extent they should be. We are not called to be dead fish, floating downstream, but we are to hold fast to the gospel of the kingdom among a world of lost people in a culture in decline, and see if we can bring light in the darkness.
You have offered what you can with what you have, yes. Not everyone shares your perspective, which is also ok. We each act based upon what we believe.
No, nor mine, or any other person. What makes a belief correct is only as it aligns with the revealed word of God.
No it does not, that is true. The thing is when we go outside of scripture to look at historical writings, they are always subject to scrutiny, as the bereans searched things out Acts17:11
Again, I agree. Where it can be come contentious is if we have different perspectives on historical events that may or may not be biblically related , but you might not care for some of my source material, or links, and vise versa. I find your posts attempt to do this more often where from my point of view, you broad brush a theology according to your perspective on history. I and others might have different source materials, and have come to a vastly different conclusion.
2tim3:16-17, yes...however we differ in I believe the words in the verses need explantion, you suggest this is not necessary, I will develop this more later on, as I think this is an attempt by you to clarify ore seek out areas, where we agree, and differ. It is preferable to do this, without you suggesting I am a Cult member, or a RC devotee, or such things as you have done in times past. I react when you do it to martin, and other Calvinists brothers, unjustly
Agreed
Yes, this is at the core os several of the areas of disagreement.... I have to do something now, but will get back to this in awhile.
Ok, I am back, lol This list is the end result of salvation, based upon what the Great Salvation that has been accomplished. Now as we work back to the cross, based on previous posts we will differ here.
I believe we were in 100% need of that very thing.
I believe that Jesus reconciles the elect scattered throughout the world, in particular, not a generic reconciliation.
Again, this is an actual propitiation for the elect scattered worldwide, not generic or protentional
These again are a result.
Yes, The law of God is the basis of the final Judgment. I believe the ten Commandments are the basis of God judging all sin.
This is a central part of the gospel itself. God's law/word , over all mankind, saved or unsaved.
I believe the old man has been crucified with Christ, in that the reigning power of sin has been broken. We are still able to sin but no longer bound by sin.
As our mediator, that is part of what he actually did as in Mt.3
14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
This has direct bearing on who he was a substitute, for, or representative of.
here is a subjective opinion, ie, how you see it. Others may or may not accept thiis, that is why much of this kind of comment is secondary to scriptural discussion which is our primary concern.
We hold we we hold.
Fair enough and agreed.
I see it as bring the whole man, to the whole Christ
Well, this was in my view our best interaction that we have had.
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You used 492 words, according to MS Word, and still did not answer my question. And you need not give me lectures on Calvinism. I've known about the system for over 50 years.
Hello JOJ.You used 492 words, according to MS Word, and still did not answer my question. And you need not give me lectures on Calvinism. I've known about the system for over 50 years.
I am sorry I did not seem to answer your question. Perhaps you are a much smarter person than I am, and I might not have understood the specific thing you were asking.? Sorry, if that was the case. As far as Calvinism goes, I am glad to find that you are acquainted with it, but I do not like to assume that someone has a solid understanding of what it teaches. You might, or you might have been influenced by pastors, family, or friends, to a skewed version of how Calvinists would define or present it. I am open to any scriptural correction, or discussion you would like to offer.
I am more concerned with truth, rather than signing up for a "team". Thanks for your response.
You still have never explained just where did our deserved wrath God had stored up to place upon us in judgement actually went to
What are your qualifications to teach me? (I teach theology in our college and seminary.)
Yes, this is probably the best interaction that we have had.
I sometimes get caught up in simply arguing (I enjoy looking at arguments, and am kinda contrary abd stubborn....if you have not noticed).
I think where we disagree is pure philosophy (not Scrioture but in how our philosophy affects our understanding).
I do not mean "philosophy" as a bad word. I mean that every person understands things within how they understand reality.
So we differ on what judicial philosophy is divine justice. We differ in the goal of justice.
We also differ concerning metaphysical concepts. I cannot understand how one can transfer sins and guilt (actions and having acted) except this be symbolic for a type of ledger (like accounting). But then the ledger would be different from reality. And in the end this would not address the problem (sins are manifestations of a greater problem - that is wickedness).
There may be other factors in our disagreement, but I think those are the two main ones that influence how we read Scripture.
Can this be resolved in such a way we agree? I doubt it. It does not have to do with Scrioture (we hold the same Scriptures).
Not sure if I could help, but will be willing to try. What do you believe or teach that differs?
Do you have portions that you believe teaches differently? I am not that smart, but maybe I have heard or read something that you might have missed?
Many profess to Be Christians and then they come to deny the faith. In speaking with such people it does not take to long to discover where they never had a grasp of basic truths that are common to all Christians. If that is true, were they ever really Christians?
Sadly, I have met many people who believe they are Christians because they were born here in the USA, and their parents brought them into an assembly of Christians. Some have been in a habit of going among the church for years, but never were brought to a place where God has made himself known to them.
When a person says they were at one time a Calvinist, you would think they would know what that actually meant. They would be able to say what it is that Calvinists believe, and why they never really did believe it.
Do you think a person who is a Calvinist would know less than a person who is a professed Christian , who has never read a bible to any degree?
You have said you have been given the privilege of teaching many people at a bible college for many years. What a wonderful thing that is to serve the lord in that way. You have much to be thankful for, being in such a position to help so many people.
Along the way as God began to teach you things to qualify you to function in such a position, have you been helped by other Christians?
I am thinking of the many passages that speak of the reality that all who are called of God are called to be saints, and are called to all the one another passages, love one another, teach one another, exhort one another, watch out for one another.
1 Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:
Have you been helped in this way, by several other saints?
Or did you only receive help after you had the opportunity to be trained at the bible school?
Paul went on and said this;
4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
You asked in one of your posts;
What a great thing it is to be able to spend time being instructed by other men at a school dedicated to really learn scripture in much detail.
As for as qualifications go, I was a great sinner and locked in unbelief, until God drew me savingly to Himself. I went from complete unbelief, to being granted the ability to welcome truth by the grace of God. That is no small thing, is it?
Paul goes on to say;
9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.
10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
Were these saints, called? What qualifications did Paul require of them?
God used Paul to address these saints. Paul was evidently well trained in the Ot. scriptures, and yet God used other saints to help him, saints who were called, as he describes here;
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
In 2cor 4;7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
Now, he does not say not to seek to be trained, but here indicates that the qualifications and power are from God. He uses trained men, he uses other men to help one another.
These saints we are told refreshed Titus; 2cor;7
6 Nevertheless God, that comforteth those that are cast down, comforted us by the coming of Titus;
7 And not by his coming only, but by the consolation wherewith he was comforted in you, when he told us your earnest desire, your mourning, your fervent mind toward me; so that I rejoiced the more.
THEN here;
13 Therefore we were comforted in your comfort: yea, and exceedingly the more joyed we for the joy of Titus, because his spirit was refreshed by you all.
15 And his inward affection is more abundant toward you, whilst he remembereth the obedience of you all, how with fear and trembling ye received him.
16 I rejoice therefore that I have confidence in you in all things.
Romans 15:14
And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another.
In gal6:
6 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.
3 For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.
4 But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.
5 For every man shall bear his own burden.
6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.
This looks as if it is part of Loving one another, that we help where we can even without formal qualifications if, God would desire to use us.
Have you ever been helped by saints who did not have formal qualifications?, Do you think this is valid?
Zaatar, Greetings to you brother. Hope and peace in our Lord Jesus Christ.
Just my two cents regarding fault I find on both sides. On the one side I sometimes see a harsh scolding of Calvinism and anyone who holds to it. It reminds me of my father who was a former smoker. There is no critic of smoking worse than a former smoker. Likewise, there is sometimes no critic more motivated and harsh than a former Calvinist.
Sometimes this approach clearly goes too far in my opinion. I often think, at what point does proselytizing become simply bickering and character assignation. Calvinism, whether one wants to disagree with some of its formulations, is clearly Christian. Calvinism holds all of the core tenants of Christianity (the real core, meaning not all the second level stuff people want to say you also must agree with).
On the flip side I often see from the Calvinist, but by no means the primary view, that if you don't believe all of the Calvinist tenants then you are an enemy of Christ. This harsh accusation from the Calvinist is made very often by Calvinists against an Arminian (whoever they throw this label upon) regarding the topic of faith and how it relates to salvation.
Just my thoughts
Peace to you brother
Again, you refuse to answer my question. I'm serious. Why should I let you teach me? (Because that is exactly what you are setting yourself up to be, my teacher, esp. in post #32.) I have had many good teachers in theology, most with PhDs. (I've taken 11 credits in sys. theo.) But here you are, some random guy on the Baptist Board. I know nothing about you.
So please tell my I why should interact with you on Calvinism. How are you wiser than my teachers?
Your post has 1149 words, yet you still refuse to answer my completely valid question, which was suggested by your own words.
"In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin: but he that refraineth his lips is wise" (Prov. 10:19).
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Folks, if we are talking about the Christian life, sure, there are many better Christians out there who can help me with that. If we are talking about strict Bible knowledge, I've known many Christians, both full time workers and regular Christians in the pew, who can teach me much.
However, theology is a specialized subject, unknown to many in the pews. Others have only a superficial knowledge. That is why I get the "big bucks"
for being a full time Bible/theology professor. It's not that I'm a better Christian, or have more out and out Bible knowledge. It is that I am fully trained, and continue to get training (working on another degree, reading lots), just like an electrician or a doctor continues to get more training to keep up with his profession.
I've seen so much bad theology here on the BB! Haven't you? This includes in the Cal/Arm battles. I have two great friends who are Calvinist, both well educated. Why then would I wish to be taught by a random person (perhaps a good Christian with great Bible knowledge) on the BB?
However, theology is a specialized subject, unknown to many in the pews. Others have only a superficial knowledge. That is why I get the "big bucks"
for being a full time Bible/theology professor. It's not that I'm a better Christian, or have more out and out Bible knowledge. It is that I am fully trained, and continue to get training (working on another degree, reading lots), just like an electrician or a doctor continues to get more training to keep up with his profession.I've seen so much bad theology here on the BB! Haven't you? This includes in the Cal/Arm battles. I have two great friends who are Calvinist, both well educated. Why then would I wish to be taught by a random person (perhaps a good Christian with great Bible knowledge) on the BB?