easternstar
Active Member
I am undecided about my current position.
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Annihilation
- Thread starter easternstar
- Start date
Has this thread defined "Annihilation?"
1) The belief when we physically die, our conscious awareness ends, there is no afterlife.
2) The belief when we physically die, we are taken either to Hades or to Heaven. Those taken to Heaven live forever. Those taken to Hades suffer torment for ever.
3) The belief where those who physically die, and do not go to Heaven, go to Hades and suffer torment as required by God's perfect justice. Subsequently, those consigned to Hades, are taken before the Great White Throne Judgement, and then thrown into the Lake of Fire where after torment to fulfill God's perfect justice, they are destroyed.
4) The absence of eternal punishment, the separation from God forever, is called Universalism. None of the three prior views are consistent with Universalism.
5) Does the smoke from their torment, which rises forever and ever, refer to on going torment, or only to the consequence of torment, eternal separation? Revelation 14:11
1) The belief when we physically die, our conscious awareness ends, there is no afterlife.
2) The belief when we physically die, we are taken either to Hades or to Heaven. Those taken to Heaven live forever. Those taken to Hades suffer torment for ever.
3) The belief where those who physically die, and do not go to Heaven, go to Hades and suffer torment as required by God's perfect justice. Subsequently, those consigned to Hades, are taken before the Great White Throne Judgement, and then thrown into the Lake of Fire where after torment to fulfill God's perfect justice, they are destroyed.
4) The absence of eternal punishment, the separation from God forever, is called Universalism. None of the three prior views are consistent with Universalism.
5) Does the smoke from their torment, which rises forever and ever, refer to on going torment, or only to the consequence of torment, eternal separation? Revelation 14:11
All I can tell you is what the Bible says.
[A] Jesus said, "Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.'" - Matthew 25:41
{B} Paul said, "They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,..." 2 Thessalonians 1:9
{C} John said, "...And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name." - Revelations 14:11
Hell is real. Hell is eternal. God does not take "glee" in it. In fact, he says in Ezekiel that he "takes no pleasure" in the destruction of the wicked. It also says in 2 Peter 3 that it is God's will that NONE should perish.
Well, people ARE going to perish. They will refuse God and spurn Him. The best example of that is the book of Revelation. If you read that book, you will understand why people go to hell. While there will be MILLIONS of people saved during that future time of tribulation via the testimony of the two witnesses, the 144,000 Jewish men whom God will save, and the angel sent around the world, the life of those to be saved during that time will be brief. Most will be martyred. And those who challenge God will with a hate unseen will perish in hell.
Not in the early church, that I have seen anyway.
Maybe one can support it with Scripture but it gets weird (the punishment is everlasting but the ones being punished are not). Technically.....maybe....but that really does not make any sence.
Ascetic X
Active Member
The earliest clear proponent of Annihilationism was Arnobius of Sicca (d 330 AD, CE), who has been rather roundly dismissed by his contemporaries, and subsequent church history.
From Tertullian, and Augustine on, the church’s development has generally accepted the traditional belief in the created immortality of the soul either united with, or separated from God depending on its own free choice.
What seems to be the main point of annihilationism is that a God of love and mercy could not let even the most sinful people suffer punishment eternally. But they have no trouble with God letting repenting sinners enjoy heaven eternally. This is a contradiction they do not face.
And the annnihilationists ignore the truth that we are to fear or intensely reverence God, because He is not just love. He also has furious wrath against sin.
They say 70 years of sinning cannot merit an eternity of punishment.
But it is not a time scale issue. It is a compatibility issue. A person develops their soul to fit in with either hell or heaven. Each is an eternal destination. So it is not that 70 years of life merits either eternal punishment or eternal bliss. It is all about how you designed your soul — as either godly or diabolical.
Get born again of the Spirit of Christ and walk in the Light to be compatible with heaven. Reject salvation and indulge the flesh to be compatible with hell.
This is why I see damnation as endless self-torment, due to not accepting the mercy of God provided in Christ’s sacrifice on the cross.
I don’t see eternal damnation as some external punishment imposed by God. You bring it upon yourself. Your punishment is your conscience working full blast as a fire, accusing and shaming you. Weeping and gnashing of teeth.
I agree...and we'll stated.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
One theological thought on the subject (by someone smarter than me that spent a lot more time than I invested thinking about it) is that the DEGREE of punishment should match the nature of the individual sinned against. [We see this in human Civil Law where shooting a police officer is more serious than shooting a taxi driver, because one is an attack on the authority that the Officer represents.] So how "serious" are crimes against an INFINITE and PERFECT GOD? How great a punishment does an infinitely evil act deserve?
Personally, I found the argument interesting, but a little too dark.
My thoughts on the subject roam back to Genesis 1 and 2. Unlike the rest of creation, man was not just "spoken" into being. God breathed some of his breath/spirit into us. Hypothetically, what if Human Souls are eternal (survive after death) because they are made of the "breath of God" ... a substance that is itself eternal. Annihilation is not possible, not because God delights in eternal suffering, but because we are made of something eternal and indestructible. So God has only two choices ... forever with him or forever away from him. ECT is an unavoidable consequence of our actions that demand eternal separation (why they cannot be near God is a question far above my pay grade).
I think the appeal of Annihilation is the revealed nature of God in contrast to the perceived nature of Hell.
People who object to the idea of eternal punishment tend to think of Hell as God eternally punishing the wicked. I do not believe this type if thinking is biblically sustainable.
Scripture tells us that the Lake of Fire was prepared for Satan and his demons. It is fitting that those who remain under him, with Satan as their master, accompanies him in that fate.
But Hell was prepared. Scripture does not say God staffs it, or oversees Hell. This place is also called the "outter darkness". Those who end up there are said to be "cast out".
I do not view Hell as God punishing the wicked for eternity. I think were God to actively engage in any way with those in Hell it would be a reprieve of sorts.
I think the eternal and utter agnoy is the complete absence of God. Those cast away have no hope. They have no life. They have no peace. They have no God.
People who object to the idea of eternal punishment tend to think of Hell as God eternally punishing the wicked. I do not believe this type if thinking is biblically sustainable.
Scripture tells us that the Lake of Fire was prepared for Satan and his demons. It is fitting that those who remain under him, with Satan as their master, accompanies him in that fate.
But Hell was prepared. Scripture does not say God staffs it, or oversees Hell. This place is also called the "outter darkness". Those who end up there are said to be "cast out".
I do not view Hell as God punishing the wicked for eternity. I think were God to actively engage in any way with those in Hell it would be a reprieve of sorts.
I think the eternal and utter agnoy is the complete absence of God. Those cast away have no hope. They have no life. They have no peace. They have no God.
easternstar
Active Member
I don't hold to universalism, but I am very doubtful about eternal hell. I do believe in eternal free will. What that means for the afterlife, I don't know, and I don't believe anybody else knows. I also believe that God is loving, merciful, and just, and infinitely so, more-so than any human is or could be.
There is no such thing as "eternal hell" but there is "eternal punishment" in Hades and Gehenna. The lost go into everlasting punishment in the everlasting fire. Matthew 25:41, 46. At a minimum, eternal punishment refers to everlasting separation from God, whether the person is aware of the separation or has been destroyed after just punishment for his or her sins. Everlasting torment is a view held by many, but not me.
I have been busy of late and I just saw this thread while catching up. It was on this subject and Kirk Cameron that I posted that long video for comment.
How much can a man do in 70 years?
Not too much. Just break the whole law.
James 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
A maximum punishment for someone who is guilty of all.
Just a thought.
Mankind is always first in his own cause.
easternstar
Active Member
Lots of good posts here, and some good and valid points made, I believe. I am still undecided about what I believe. But I think I still lean toward annihilation.
I believe the Jews didn't believe in the soul's immortality. So, where did that come from in Christianity -- the scriptures only? My readings suggest that Greek philosophy was an influence.
I believe the Jews didn't believe in the soul's immortality. So, where did that come from in Christianity -- the scriptures only? My readings suggest that Greek philosophy was an influence.
It was the Sadducees that denied the resurrection and immortality. The Pharisees believed in the afterlife through the resurrection.
As far back as Abraham they believed in a future heavenly home whose builder and maker was God. claiming to be pilgrims on this earth.
Annihilation is not taught in Scripture. In Rev. 20 the souls of those in Hell are called up for judgement and notice their bodies are also called up.
They are cast into the Lake of Fire body and soul forever.
Those in Hell are still there from 6000 years ago to the present, waiting for this calling to judgement.
easternstar
Active Member
Yes, I know what the Sadducees and Pharisees believed. But Jewish beliefs, as a whole,were more varied.
easternstar
Active Member
Here is an excellent article on Christian mortalism, even if it is on Wikipedia. Read all the way to the end -- fascinating.
en.wikipedia.org
Christian mortalism - Wikipedia
Yes, the Sadducees denied a resurrection of any kind. That's kind of sad, you see? [That's how I always remember the difference between the Sadducees and Pharisees. LOL!]
That's also why they ignorantly challenged Jesus about the hypothetical husband who died and his widow married the brother, and then he died and she married the other brother and on and on seven times. They really thought they had him trapped when they asked, if there is a resurrection, then which brother will be her husband?
I've always loved Jesus' answer. "You are mistaken because you don't know the scripture." We should all look at ourselves through the lens of THAT verse!
Speaking of things Jesus Christ said, whatever or wherever you believe hell is, he said it is eternal. There is no annihilation.
I don't take that lightly or with glee. Neither does God.
easternstar
Active Member
You say that with a certainty that I don't believe is warranted.
Ascetic X
Active Member
@easternstar - I wonder if annihilation might be more cruel and horrible than eternal conscious self-torment.
Annihilation sounds nice if you compare it to perpetual dreamless sleep. But can you imagine having never existed? That seems worse in some ways. Like you had never been born.
Eternal agony in hell at least is accompanied by a sense of self. I almost think that having my self intact, even with nightmarish anguish, in total darkness, might be better than being turned off completely. No mind. No memories. No me.
Non-existence due to annihilation — we cannot really fathom what that would be like. Of course, satan and his demons might prefer that to living in the lake of fire forever. But they are completely evil and unrepentant.
We humans might be able to recall happy, peaceful, love-filled times in our past. Might not provide any relief, but at least our identity remains.
Both annihilation and eternal punishment seem dreadful to me. I want heaven to be full and hell to be empty. But either reality, not existing or conscious torment, are so awful, we should strive to lead people to Christ so they avoid damnation.
Annihilation sounds nice if you compare it to perpetual dreamless sleep. But can you imagine having never existed? That seems worse in some ways. Like you had never been born.
Eternal agony in hell at least is accompanied by a sense of self. I almost think that having my self intact, even with nightmarish anguish, in total darkness, might be better than being turned off completely. No mind. No memories. No me.
Non-existence due to annihilation — we cannot really fathom what that would be like. Of course, satan and his demons might prefer that to living in the lake of fire forever. But they are completely evil and unrepentant.
We humans might be able to recall happy, peaceful, love-filled times in our past. Might not provide any relief, but at least our identity remains.
Both annihilation and eternal punishment seem dreadful to me. I want heaven to be full and hell to be empty. But either reality, not existing or conscious torment, are so awful, we should strive to lead people to Christ so they avoid damnation.
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Well I just learned something! I was not aware of your input on that conversation with Christ and the Sadducees.
I've never seen it that way.