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Old Covenant?

JonC

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Van said:
The first covenant was NOT flawed based on the members,
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So God messed up and fixed His mistake?

Van said:
The flaw was the first covenant did not make the flawed members perfect, but the second one did.
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Yes...that is exactly what I said. The Old Covenant was not designed to perfect man. It showed man his sin.

But you are saying what I was saying, just differently.

Take away man with his imperfection. The Old Covenant would work. Add man, it will not.

Hey! Paul was right. Go figure.
 
C

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Van said:
No, the fault in the first covenant was that it did not make those covered perfect. That is why we now have the Everlasting New Covenant providing eternal security.
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I think that has already been brought out.

Whose fault was it that the Old was not sufficient? Certainly not God being that man has now placed himself at the mercy and grace of God for his very survival.

It took time for God to provide a Redeemer for man to be totally redeemed.

Man is at fault every step of the way, in that the Old was not sufficient to undo what he had done.

But in God's mercy and grace the Old was sufficient to forgive sin based on the promise of God to provide a future way to be totally redeemed.
 
C

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Charlie24 said:
I think that has already been brought out.

Whose fault was it that the Old was not sufficient? Certainly not God being that man has now placed himself at the mercy and grace of God for his very survival.

It took time for God to provide a Redeemer for man to be totally redeemed.

Man is at fault every step of the way, in that the Old was not sufficient to undo what he had done.

But in God's mercy and grace the Old was sufficient to forgive sin based on the promise of God to provide a future way to be totally redeemed.
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Not trying to argue in the negative but only taking the insufficiency of the Old to its logical conclusion.
 
Ascetic X

Ascetic X

Active Member
percho said:
Is there a verse in the bible that states anyone has entered his rest? Please point it or them out.
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Hebrews 4:3,10

For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
 
V

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
JonC said:
So God messed up and fixed His mistake?


Yes...that is exactly what I said. The Old Covenant was not designed to perfect man. It showed man his sin.

But you are saying what I was saying, just differently.

Take away man with his imperfection. The Old Covenant would work. Add man, it will not.

Hey! Paul was right. Go figure.
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Hopefully we have reached a consensus. The fiction that God made a mistake, is your take, not mine.
 
V

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Charlie24 said:
I think that has already been brought out.

Whose fault was it that the Old was not sufficient? Certainly not God being that man has now placed himself at the mercy and grace of God for his very survival.

It took time for God to provide a Redeemer for man to be totally redeemed.

Man is at fault every step of the way, in that the Old was not sufficient to undo what he had done.

But in God's mercy and grace the Old was sufficient to forgive sin based on the promise of God to provide a future way to be totally redeemed.
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Again, you say the first covenant was not sufficient, when it was sufficient for its purpose, to provide a stepping stone to the New Covenant.

It did not "take time," God took time, He established the "fullness of time." See Galatians 4:4
 
V

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
percho said:
Is there a verse in the bible that states anyone has entered his rest? Please point it or them out.
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Yes, of course scripture says every born anew believer has entered, past tense, His rest. See post 25.

Ask yourself why you could not find it. Perhaps you need to learn how to study scripture.

A simple word search of your Exhaustive Concordance for "rest" would have turned up Hebrews 3:18, 4:1, 3, 10.

It would have taken less than 15 minutes.
 
JonC

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Van said:
Hopefully we have reached a consensus. The fiction that God made a mistake, is your take, not mine.
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??

I never said that God made a mistake.

I agreed with your conclusion- that the Old Covenant could not provide what was necessary ("make flawed people perfect").
 
P

percho

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
JonC said:
??

I never said that God made a mistake.

I agreed with your conclusion- that the Old Covenant could not provide what was necessary ("make flawed people perfect").
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Amen

The covenant is the same but the old man, is made the new man, in Christ.
 
JonC

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
percho said:
Amen

The covenant is the same but the old man, is made the new man, in Christ.
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That is what many miss.

Both Covenants are manifestations of God's righteousness - one through the law and the other through faith.

The Old Covenant showed us God's righteousness manifested through law. Through obedience the Old Covenant testified to one's righteousness. Through disobedience it testified to one's unrighteousness.

To the disobedient (man in the image of Adam) it was a certificate of debt. It showed our delinquency.

But the New Covenant is a better covenant. We are recreated.
 
V

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The Old Covenant is NOT the same as the New Covenant in His Blood. The New and Everlasting Covenant promises to make our dead souls alive through the blood of the Lamb.
 
M

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The difference between the old and new covenants is that the old was conditional and the new is unconditional. Compare Heb. 8:9 with 8:11. 'For they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 'The most prominent feature of the Sinaitic ('first,' 'old') covenant is the law. It is interesting to observe its conditional nature in contrast to the 'covenants of promise' (Eph. 2:12).

Gen 9:11 (Noahic). Thus I establish My covenant with you: Never again shall all flesh be cut off by the waters of the flood.”

Gen 12:2 (Abrahamic). “I will make you a great nation; I will bless you and make your name great; and you shall be a blessing……….And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”

1Chron 17:11 (Davidic). “And it shall be, when your days are fulfilled, when you must go to be with your fathers, that I will set up your seed after you, who will be one of your sons; and I will establish his kingdom.”

Exod 19:5 (Sinaitic). “Now therefore if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people.”

The “I will” of the covenants of promise contrasts with the “if you will” of the Sinaitic. Note also the “He will” when the New Covenant is announced.

Matt 1:21. “…..And you shall call His name Jesus for He will save His people from their sins.”

Luke 1:32. “He will be great and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father, David.”

‘For all the promises of God In Him are Yes, and in Him, Amen, to the glory of God’ (2Cor 1:20). The covenants of promise are fulfilled in Christ.
 
JonC

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Martin Marprelate said:
The difference between the old and new covenants is that the old was conditional and the new is unconditional.
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I am not sure "conditional" is the right word. The Old Covenant contained a blessing and a curse. So being declared righteous was conditional.

But most theologians recognize that the New Covenant is conditional in the same way (rejection of the Light results in a curse).
 
V

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Martin Marprelate said:
The difference between the old and new covenants is that the old was conditional and the new is unconditional. Compare Heb. 8:9 with 8:11. 'For they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 'The most prominent feature of the Sinaitic ('first,' 'old') covenant is the law. It is interesting to observe its conditional nature in contrast to the 'covenants of promise' (Eph. 2:12).

Gen 9:11 (Noahic). Thus I establish My covenant with you: Never again shall all flesh be cut off by the waters of the flood.”

Gen 12:2 (Abrahamic). “I will make you a great nation; I will bless you and make your name great; and you shall be a blessing……….And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”

1Chron 17:11 (Davidic). “And it shall be, when your days are fulfilled, when you must go to be with your fathers, that I will set up your seed after you, who will be one of your sons; and I will establish his kingdom.”

Exod 19:5 (Sinaitic). “Now therefore if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people.”

The “I will” of the covenants of promise contrasts with the “if you will” of the Sinaitic. Note also the “He will” when the New Covenant is announced.

Matt 1:21. “…..And you shall call His name Jesus for He will save His people from their sins.”

Luke 1:32. “He will be great and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father, David.”

‘For all the promises of God In Him are Yes, and in Him, Amen, to the glory of God’ (2Cor 1:20). The covenants of promise are fulfilled in Christ.
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Superb post, thanks!
 
M

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
JonC said:
I am not sure "conditional" is the right word. The Old Covenant contained a blessing and a curse. So being declared righteous was conditional.

But most theologians recognize that the New Covenant is conditional in the same way (rejection of the Light results in a curse).
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I don't see how these "most theologians" can recognize that. Hebrews 8:10-12. 'For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God and they shall be My people. None of them shall teach his neighbour, and none his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.'
Everyone in the new covenant knows the Lord, and has His law written on his heart. So I don't see how it can possibly be conditional. Anyone who doesn't believe is not in the new covenant.
 
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