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Old Covenant?

JonC

Moderator
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@Martin Marprelate

What I mean by my comment is that both the Old and New Covenants have conditions that man must meet.

This is why Reformed Theology (I use that because you hold some Reformed ideas) holds that the New Covenant is conditional.

R.C. Sproul, for example, stated that the New Covenant is conditional because it requires faith and obedience from believers. He noted that there are both conditional and unconditional aspects of the covenant (God promises to fulfill it in Christ). Sproul viewed the difference between the covenants as one of works vs faith with God enabling people to believe.

J I Packer viewed the New Covenant as primarily unconditional by faith, but with conditional aspects.

Joel Beek stated that the New Covenant is characterized by unconditional grace but is conditional in terms of faith and "new" obedience.

John Owen viewed the New Covenant as fundamentally unconditional but conditional in terms of administration.

John Knox viewed it as unconditional in its grace or promise, but lived out conditionally based on faith and obedience.

Wesley viewed it as conditioned on faith and obedience.

Spurgeon viewed it as both conditional and unconditional (different aspects) with the promise being unconditional but with the condition of faith.
 

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
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Semantically, belief is the condition. If you are in the condition of belief you are in the new covenant. If you’re unbelieving, you are not in the new covenant.
Just because you omitted the word if, doesn’t make it unconditional. Believe is what we are told to do. If you believe (see Hebrews 3) you may have rest.

Romans 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

The new covenant with Israel is not a new thought. It is new in that it replaces the law.

Galatians 3:17
And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness.

That was before the first covenant. That was before the “new covenant.” But it is the new covenant.
Thanks for your thoughtful reply. Obviously everyone in the new covenant is trusting in Christ, but the new covenant is not by faith, it is through the blood of Christ (Matt. 26:28; Mark 14:24; Luke 22:20; 1 Cor. 11:25. The word 'new' is not in the Critical Text of Matthew or Mark, but it is in the large majority of the extant manuscripts), and therefore not conditional. I cannot find anywhere that faith is directly tied into the N.C. It is not in Hebrews 8, and Hebrews 11 makes no mention of the N.C.
I shudder at the thought of this thread being hijacked into yet another wearisome Arm vs. Cal debate, but I would say that faith is the gift of God (Eph. 2:8; 2 Tim. 1:9).
Reformed paedobaptists like Sproul, Beeke and Packer regard the new covenant as being a sort of re-working of the old, so that they can tie circumcision into baptism. Reformed Baptists (and, interestingly, John Owen) see the two covenants as being quite separate.
 

37818

Well-Known Member
. . . N.C. It is not in Hebrews 8, . . . .
It is, Hebrews 8:8-12, . . . Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

From Jeremiah 31:31-34.
 

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
A few more thoughts while I have a little time.
The new covenant is usually regarded as the outworking of the Covenant of Grace (also called the Eternal Covenant, Covenant of Peace or Council of Redemption). It may be helpful to quote from the WCF Larger Catechism:

Q.30. Doth God leave all mankind to perish in the estate of sin and misery?

Ans. God doth not leave all mankind to perish in the estate of sin and misery, into which they fell by the breach of the……. covenant of works; but of His mere love and mercy delivereth His elect out of it, and bringeth them into an estate of salvation by the second covenant, commonly called the covenant of grace.

Q.31. With whom was the Covenant of Grace made?

Ans. The Covenant of Grace was made with Christ as the second Adam, and in Him with all the elect as His seed.

What we find is that God the Father, in eternity, has given to Christ a vast number of sinners to redeem. We see this in John 6:39 and also in John 17:24. "Father, I desire that they also whom you gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me...." Not even one of those given by the Father to the Son will be lost; every last one will be redeemed. This is also spelled out in Eph. 1:3-14, where we see that the Holy Spirit was also involved, sealing Christ's people for salvation at the Last Day.

All this was determined, before ever there was a world, in the Covenant of Grace. That is why Paul can say of the Thessalonians, ‘But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth’ (2Thes 2:13 ). The whole of the Bible may be seen as the outworking of this great covenant and the accomplishment of God’s gracious plan for our salvation.

References to the Covenant of Grace can be found in various parts of the Bible if one is prepared to look for them as the following examples will show:-

Luke 22:22. “And truly the Son of Man goes as it has been determined……” Determined where and by whom if not in the Covenant of Grace?

John 6:38-39. “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.” Christ has been given a people and the task by the Father which He is determined to fulfil. What can this refer to if not the Covenant of Grace?

John 10:16. “And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.” Not, “I will bring,” but, “I must bring.” Our Lord had been given a commission to fulfil.

John 10:17-18. “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.” Where did Christ receive this command, the doing of which merited so well the Father’s love? In the Covenant of Grace, of course.

Phil 2:6-8 (my translation). ‘Who, being in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be held to His advantage, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.’ In the Covenant of Grace, our Lord gave up temporarily that equality with the Father that had existed from all eternity, and became the willing servant of Exodus 21:5-6 and Psalm 40:6-8 in order to rescue those who had been given to Him (John 17:2, 6 ).

Heb 2:13. ‘Here am I and the children whom God has given to Me.’ Given by the Father to the Son in the Covenant of Grace to be redeemed from sin and brought to heaven.

A helpful book on this subject is The Divine Covenants by A.W. PInk. Here is an excerpt:

‘God made covenants with Noah, Abraham, David; but were they, as fallen creatures able to enter into covenant with their august and holy Maker? Were they able to stand for themselves, or to be sureties for others? The very question answers itself. What, for instance, could Noah possibly do which would ensure that the earth should never be destroyed again by a flood? These subordinate covenants were nothing more or less than the Lord’s making manifest, in an especial and public manner, the grand covenant: making known something of its glorious contents, confirming their own personal interest in it, and assuring them that Christ, the great covenant Head, should be of themselves and spring from their seed.
‘This is what accounts for that singular expression which occurs so frequently in Scripture: “Behold, I establish My covenant with you and your seed after you” (Gen 9:9 ). Yet there follows no mention of any conditions, or work to be done by them: only a promise of unconditional blessings. And why? Because the “conditions” were to be fulfilled and the “work” was to be done by Christ, and nothing remained but to bestow the blessings upon His people. So when David says, “He hath made with me an everlasting covenant”
(2Sam 23:5 ) he simply means, God had admitted him into an interest in the everlasting covenant and made him partaker of its privileges. Hence it is that when the apostle Paul refers to the various covenants which God had made with men in Old Testament times, he styles them not “covenants of stipulations” but “covenants of promise”

Tow other helpful books on Covenant Theology from a credobaptist perspective are:
Covenant Theology from Adam to Christ (RBAP, 2005) which contains two 17th Century works: Nehemiah Coxe's A Discourse of the Covenants and an extract from John Owen's mammoth commentary on Hebrews 8:3-16.
The Distinctiveness of Baptist Covenant Theology by Pascal Denault (SGCB, 2013 in my copy, but I believe there has been a more recent revision).
 
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Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
It is, Hebrews 8:8-12, . . . Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

From Jeremiah 31:31-34.
I'm sorry. Perhaps I did not make myself clear. I meant that I cannot find the word faith in Hebrews 8. Obviously the new covenant is there, and again in Heb. 10.
 

Ben1445

Well-Known Member
Thanks for your thoughtful reply. Obviously everyone in the new covenant is trusting in Christ, but the new covenant is not by faith, it is through the blood of Christ (Matt. 26:28; Mark 14:24; Luke 22:20; 1 Cor. 11:25. The word 'new' is not in the Critical Text of Matthew or Mark, but it is in the large majority of the extant manuscripts), and therefore not conditional. I cannot find anywhere that faith is directly tied into the N.C. It is not in Hebrews 8, and Hebrews 11 makes no mention of the N.C.
I shudder at the thought of this thread being hijacked into yet another wearisome Arm vs. Cal debate, but I would say that faith is the gift of God (Eph. 2:8; 2 Tim. 1:9).
Reformed paedobaptists like Sproul, Beeke and Packer regard the new covenant as being a sort of re-working of the old, so that they can tie circumcision into baptism. Reformed Baptists (and, interestingly, John Owen) see the two covenants as being quite separate.
Faith is man’s response to any covenant.
Abraham believed God.
Hebrews 11 lists a selection of examples of people who believed God, regardless of which covenant they were under.
Which covenant was Abel under?
You cannot separate faith from any covenant.
 

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Faith is man’s response to any covenant.
Abraham believed God.
Hebrews 11 lists a selection of examples of people who believed God, regardless of which covenant they were under.
Which covenant was Abel under?
You cannot separate faith from any covenant.
I don't think I have separated faith from any covenant.
Thanks for your thoughtful reply. Obviously everyone in the new covenant is trusting in Christ, but the new covenant is not by faith, it is through the blood of Christ
Just to be entirely clear, no one gets into heaven without repenting and putting his trust in Christ for salvation. I am suggesting that both those things are gifts of God.
And Abel was not "under" any covenant, but he was a beneficiary of the covenant of grace.
 
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