Angels?

Gen, 6:4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.

This is one great example of misusing Scripture. Search the Bible until your fingers fall off, and you will not find Yehovah God committing sin. Why in the world do I throw that in here?

God created Angels to be His servants, and Angles do not reproduce.

Matthew 22:30 ESV​

For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.
In Heaven, we will no longer reproduce, but will be like the Angels who do not reproduce. Let's look for a moment at possibilities.
Sons of God (Biblical Hebrew: בְנֵי־הָאֱלֹהִים, romanized: Bənē hāʾĔlōhīm, [1] literally: "the sons of Elohim " [2]) is a phrase used in the Tanakh or Old Testament and in Christian Apocrypha. The phrase is also used in Kabbalah where bene elohim are part of different Jewish angelic hierarchies.
Men are great at using themselves to relate to anything else, but Yehovah God had the Holy Scriptures recorded and they interpret themselves and that must be accomplished with the aid of Ruah ha'Mashiach, a.k.a. The Holy Spirit.

Mark 4:11​

English Standard Version​

11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables,​

It is not meant for the Lost Man to understand the parables of God, and they are revealed to the person who submits to the leadership of Yahweh, because those people are indwelt with the Ruah ha’Machiah and He interprets for them.

Colossians 1:26-29​

New American Standard Bible 1995​

26 that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His [a]saints, 27 to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. 28 We proclaim Him, admonishing every man and teaching every man [b]with all wisdom, so that we may present every man [c]complete in Christ. 29 For this purpose also I labor, striving according to His [d]power, which [e]mightily works within me.​

The simple truth is revealed to those who are the Children of God because they are filled with the Spirit of His Presence. To this end, the Sons of God, spoken of in this passage are the God Fearing, God Worshipping Jews who married the daughters of the unchosen.

Ok, so in context let’s remember Moses is writing Genesis. He is emphasizing to the Hebrew people they are not to marry any of the “Canaanites” in the promised land.

The “Sons of God” are the descendants of Seth. The “sons of men” are descendants of Cann.

They are not angels at all and as you pointed out, angels are spiritual beings unable to reproduce.

Peace to you

th1bill said:

. . . Jews . . . .

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?
Jews weren't until after Judah.

I agree the sons of God [Genesis 6:4] were to be Godly men.

37818 said:

?
Jews weren't until after Judah.

I agree the sons of God [Genesis 6:4] were to be Godly men.

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Sons of God are, without exception, possessors of the Spirit of God, whether created with the Spirit as Adam and the angels that fell or those who were born of the Spirit, the church, in the NT times. Adam and the sons of God in Genesis 6 were tested and fell. Those sons of God in the body of Christ cannot fall because they are sealed unto the day of redemption of the body at the resurrection. The Spirit within them is also the seal. The church receives the Spirit of God , not through a creation, but through a new creation, a second birth,

Here is a passage that speaks of the fall in Ge 6 and one can note that it is in the context of sexual sins.

2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; (read context)

These angel are still there since those days.

Obviously not all fallen angels participated in this conspiracy to corrupt the DNA of the humans thus making it impossible for God to bring in the promised seed of the woman and his ultimate victory over the spirit world.

Angels are always men and when appearing they appear as young men in the OT.
Holy angels have appeared in the apostolic age to humans unawares because of their appearance.
No unholy angel has appeared after the flood suggesting they no longer have the ability.

There is no scripture in the KJV that says these angels were unable to impregnate women. It says only they do not marry and are not given in marriage. A reason for that is they are all males. SONS of God is a real tip off. It means there is a fixed number of angels that did not change with the hybrids.

God said he is destroying the first order of earth because the whole earth was corrupt. He killed all but eight of them.

Ge 6:11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

This following is alone what is said of Noah.

Ge 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
10 And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

Some have suggested that the disembodied spirits of the hybrids are the devils we read about in the NT that have such a desire to possess a body. That is not yet my position but I bring it up here because there is some sense to it.

Corrupted humanity could not be saved.

Some have suggested that the mark of the beast might in some way alter the DNA of those who receive it. I do know that no one who receives it can be saved but I have not reached the point that is my teaching on the subject. There is some sense to the idea.

There is much to know about the doctrine of angels and I am in the learning mode.

JD731 said:

Sons of God are, without exception, possessors of the Spirit of God, whether created with the Spirit as Adam and the angels that fell or those who were born of the Spirit, the church, in the NT times. Adam and the sons of God in Genesis 6 were tested and fell. Those sons of God in the body of Christ cannot fall because they are sealed unto the day of redemption of the body at the resurrection. The Spirit within them is also the seal. The church receives the Spirit of God , not through a creation, but through a new creation, a second birth,

Here is a passage that speaks of the fall in Ge 6 and one can note that it is in the context of sexual sins.

2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; (read context)

These angel are still there since those days.

Obviously not all fallen angels participated in this conspiracy to corrupt the DNA of the humans thus making it impossible for God to bring in the promised seed of the woman and his ultimate victory over the spirit world.

Angels are always men and when appearing they appear as young men in the OT.
Holy angels have appeared in the apostolic age to humans unawares because of their appearance.
No unholy angel has appeared after the flood suggesting they no longer have the ability.

There is no scripture in the KJV that says these angels were unable to impregnate women. It says only they do not marry and are not given in marriage. A reason for that is they are all males. SONS of God is a real tip off. It means there is a fixed number of angels that did not change with the hybrids.

God said he is destroying the first order of earth because the whole earth was corrupt. He killed all but eight of them.

Ge 6:11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

This following is alone what is said of Noah.

Ge 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
10 And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

Some have suggested that the disembodied spirits of the hybrids are the devils we read about in the NT that have such a desire to possess a body. That is not yet my position but I bring it up here because there is some sense to it.

Corrupted humanity could not be saved.

Some have suggested that the mark of the beast might in some way alter the DNA of those who receive it. I do know that no one who receives it can be saved but I have not reached the point that is my teaching on the subject. There is some sense to the idea.

There is much to know about the doctrine of angels and I am in the learning mode.

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I know of no one that was more corrupt than I was, Musicians drink, drug, share women and there is no limit to their sin. God wants all to be saved, and as I read scripture, He calls every one of us to repent and to be saved. Some of your views are your opinions, but are not scriptural.

There is a rule I live by; Scripture is without chapter and there are no verses applied by the Author. And no scripture, passage of scripture, nor collection of scripture can be fully understood without the light of all scripture shinning on it. In this light, the Holy Light from Yehovah God, scripture is self interpreting.

Shalom, my brother.

37818 said:

?
Jews weren't until after Judah.

I agree the sons of God [Genesis 6:4] were to be Godly men.

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A bit picky, but true, I should have said Hebrew.

Shalom!

th1bill said:

I know of no one that was more corrupt than I was, Musicians drink, drug, share women and there is no limit to their sin. God wants all to be saved, and as I read scripture, He calls every one of us to repent and to be saved. Some of your views are your opinions, but are not scriptural.

There is a rule I live by; Scripture is without chapter and there are no verses applied by the Author. And no scripture, passage of scripture, nor collection of scripture can be fully understood without the light of all scripture shinning on it. In this light, the Holy Light from Yehovah God, scripture is self interpreting.

Shalom, my brother.

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Generally, I study the doctrines of the scriptures by comparing words and phrases and consider how broad the application of a subject is intended in a given text. For instance, I was very interested in who is called a son of God in the scriptures so I searched it out. Only two men in the OT scriptures were referred to as the son of God. They were the first Adam (Lk 3:38) and Jesus Christ, later referred to as the last Adam. The nation of Israel was also called the son of God collectively, but that is obviously metaphorical or figurative.

Next we have a group whose only reference as sons of God to the point of Ge 6 were some beings that impregnated the daughters of men and produced giants as offspring. BTW, all the giants in scripture from this point going forward are wicked and evil and none were ever saved. The next encounter we have with the sons of God are in Job 1 and Satan is with them at a seemingly prearranged meeting with God. There were no saved men present at this event described here to Job.

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

The sons of God are identified with the morning stars. Now we have a metaphor with meaning.

Jesus Christ, having a dual nature, God and man is called "the morning Star" and as a man possessed the Spirit in his body from his birth. He was born of a virgin and was fully man and God was his Father, making him the son of God. Now, since the resurrection,, All those who believe God, that he sent his son to redeem any and all men who will bow the knee to God and come to him through Jesus Christ by faith in his work for them will be saved. Being saved is defined by the receiving the image of Jesus Christ, who is the image of God. This is accomplished by receiving his Spirit, who is his Life. Consider what John the apostle said of it:

1 Jn 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
John had received the gift of the Spirit on the day Jesus Christ resurrected from the dead in John 20. It was then he became a son of God personally. Soul, body, and the Spirit of Christ, a trinity.

I concluded from my studies that each entity that was called the son of God was a created being who possessed the trinitarian image of God by having his Spirit in them. Adam and those sons of God had the Spirit until they fell by sinning. They were created by God specially. So are we. The difference between us and Adam and the sons of God who fell is they were not sealed by the Spirit as are we . We are "in Christ" and reckoned sinless, our sins having been put away even while we live. Sin cannot have dominion over us because of this eternal sacrifice of Christ for us. Our sins are washed away by his blood Re 1:5.

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

The Spirit is in the individual believer and also in the collective body of Christ, making all believers in him one with him who is the head of the body.

I have trusted Jesus Christ as my saviour from sin and I am confident that what God has said, that he will receive me, having come to him in the name of Jesus Christ, forgiven my sins and birthed me into the kingdom of his dear son, thus making me a son of God. I hope you have too.

I wanted you to see my reasoning and logic for my position on the sons of God. I want to praise my Lord Jesus Christ for his marvelous salvation. Amen!

Greetings to th1bill JD731 in our Lord Jesus Christ. May God's truth pierce the darkness of our minds and break down walls we have constructed against His truth.

To be transparent before starting this post, angels did not procreate with human woman nor is their any evidence that they did within the Holy Scripture. Further, it is counter to biblical reasoning.

This topic, imo, is a very large one. What I mean by that is that there is much evidence to be reviewed to fully unpack the truth that angels did not procreate with human women per the oral fables of the corrupted Jewish culture that was eventually recorded in the Book of Enoch during the Intertestamental period.

th1bill said:

Sons of God (Biblical Hebrew: בְנֵי־הָאֱלֹהִים, romanized: Bənē hāʾĔlōhīm, [1] literally: "the sons of Elohim "

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The exact Hebrew idiom הָֽאָדָ֔ם בְּנ֣וֹת (bə-nō-wṯ hā-’ā-ḏām) can only be found in the following verses (Gen 6:2,4; Job 1:6,2:7,38:7). Its English translation, word for word, is "sons of God". Within the Job verses, the idiom "sons of God" refers to (i) spiritual affiliation with the subject being (ii) angels.

JD731 said:

The next encounter we have with the sons of God are in Job 1 and Satan is with them at a seemingly prearranged meeting with God. There were no saved men present at this event described here to Job.

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Your statement is misleading, i.e., when you say "no saved men present at this event". The reasons being is that for proper exegesis of Genesis 6:1-4, it doesn't require there to be "saved men" represented in the Job verses. This is a common error made predominantly by Gen 6:2,4 angel advocates.

The Angel Advocate argument usually goes something like this...
1. The Genesis 6 Hebrew idiom ḇə-nê- hā-’ĕ-lō-hîm translates to English as "sons of God".
2. According to the "Rule of First Mention" in hermeneutics, the initial appearance in the Bible reveals meaning and should be considered for later development.
3. The Hebrew idiom ḇə-nê- hā-’ĕ-lō-hîm (in its exact form) is only used in Job 1:6,2:7,38:7 and Genesis 6:2,4.
4. The Book of Job was written first if put in chronological order (then Genesis by Moses).
5. The context we find this Hebrew idiom in the book of Job has angels as the subject matter.

Up to this point the angel advocate has followed proper exegesis. But this is the point in which the angel advocate stops doing proper exegesis. The angel advocate then says, the idom ḇə-nê- hā-’ĕ-lō-hîm means angels. This is blatantly false and with this slight turn of hand, the angle advocate tumbles off into error.

To be clear, the Hebrew phrase ḇə-nê- hā-’ĕ-lō-hîm is translated word for word as "sons of God". Within the Bible, the imagery of “sons of..” denotes membership, lineage, tribal affiliation, favor, condition and “spiritual allegiances”; it denotes ‘whose you are’ and to whom you affiliate. THIS is the MEANING of the idiom "sons of God".

Two points about the idiom 'sons of...' that is consistently used in Genesis, Job, and throughout the entire Bible.
(a) Idioms are usually unique to language or culture. Often context is needed to get the full meaning.
(b) In the Bible the idiom "sons of..." denotes a membership of tribe, ethical standard, and favor. It denotes 'whose you are'. There is no instance within the Bible that this is not the case.

So we now know the meaning of "sons of God" and must discover the subject that it is being applied to. In the case of the Job verses we know that the subjects of the idiom are angels. How do we know this? Because of context. Context is needed to discover the subjects of idioms IN EVERY CASE.

In other words, the proper understanding of the Job verses (1:6,2:7, 38:7) is that the writer (Job) is using a common form of idiom in the Bible that denotes belonging, whose are they, to what tribe do they belong, of whose reputation are they representing. With this understanding, we can see clearly what Job is doing in v6,2:7,38:7. He is denoting one individual or tribe and ethical standard (the devil), who is not in favor of God, with another group, tribe and ethical standard (good angels in favor of God).

Keep seeking God's truth as if it were hidden treasure (Prov 2)

Greetings JD731. Hope and Peace to you in our Lord Jesus Christ

JD731 said:

There is no scripture in the KJV that says these angels were unable to impregnate women.

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Further, there are no verses that say that angels can impregnate human woman. Lets use some biblical reasoning skills on this topic.

Argument from Reason - After Their Own Kind Concept
We are instructed in 1 Corinthians 15:39-40 that “all flesh is not the same flesh”. The two verses go on to tell us that there is “one kind of flesh of men” (1Cor 15:39) and also there are “celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies” (1Cor 15:40). In other words, the flesh of one cannot intermingle with the flesh of another because “all flesh is not the same flesh” (1Cor 15:39). An interesting fact that relates to our inquiry is that God created the species here on earth “according to their kind” (Gen 1:24-25) so as not to be able to procreate, intermingle DNA, with other species. Although deviant sexual behaviors can be practiced, humans cannot procreate with bears, horses, cows, nor dogs. Additionally, bears cannot procreate with horses, nor dogs with cows. It is clear that God has created boundaries and limits to what species mankind can procreate with. It would be reasonable to think these boundaries pertained to all species outside of the human race, including angels. Angels were most likely created according to their kind (celestial and terrestrial bodies), just like every other created species in the Bible (Gen 1:24-25, 1 Cor 15:39-40). One might ask, if the Scripture tells us that “all flesh is not the same flesh” (1Cor 15:39) and God made this boundary for mankind to be unable to intermingle genetic material with other species, then what would be God’s purpose for not including this boundary between humans and angels?

Argument From Reason - Angels Not Intended To Marry Concept
Logic would seem to tell us that if angels were never intended to marry (Matt 22:30) or be given in marriage in heaven. Then those angels were never given the ability to reproduce, i.e., they were never intended to be given a directive of “be fruitful and multiply” (Gen 1:22). For what would be God’s purpose for giving angels the ability to reproduce if none of the angels were ever intended to marry or be given a directive of “be fruitful and multiply”? Since sexual relations is only permitted through marriage for self aware beings then it follows that if God never intends angels to marry then He never intends angles to procreate. Further, all the angels referenced in the Bible are done in the masculine, which leads us to two additional points. The first point, grammatical gender is not the same as actual gender. Just because angels are spoken of in the grammatical masculine sense does not mean they are physically of masculine gender, they may be of no gender whatsoever. There is no biblical evidence that reveals that angels actually have a masculine gender (in the reproduction sense). Second, IF it was the case that all angels are of masculine gender, then it is reasonable to think that angels were never intended to procreate with other angels at all because there are no feminine gender angels. So why would God then give them the ability to reproduce with humans if He considered inter-species cohabitation as an abomination and had no intention of angels reproducing with angels?

Argument From Reason - God Created All Things Good Concept
(1) God created all things (John 1:3, Rev 4:11, Col 1:16)
(2) Everything that God created was/is first good (Gen 1:31), for God does not have “pleasure in wickedness” (Psa 5:4).
(3) God created some beings with moral agency (humans and angels).
(4) There is evil in the world.
(5) Therefore, everything that was created was created by God, was first created good, and then became evil/fallen due to moral agency.
(6) Evil spirits are said to be the offspring of evil in the book of Enoch, a new species, neither angel nor human that is created by evil to do evil.
(7) For (6) to be true, either (1b) God did not create all things or (2b) God created evil, to do evil, and therefore is not all good.
(C) Neither (1b) nor (2b) can be true due to (1) and (2) which are necessarily true.
(C) Therefore, (6) is false.


Angels cannot procreate with human woman according to biblical reasoning.


Keep seeking God's truth as if it were hidden treasure (Prov 2)

Paleouss said:

Greetings JD731. Hope and Peace to you in our Lord Jesus Christ

Further, there are no verses that say that angels can impregnate human woman. Lets use some biblical reasoning skills on this topic.

Argument from Reason - After Their Own Kind Concept
We are instructed in 1 Corinthians 15:39-40 that “all flesh is not the same flesh”. The two verses go on to tell us that there is “one kind of flesh of men” (1Cor 15:39) and also there are “celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies” (1Cor 15:40). In other words, the flesh of one cannot intermingle with the flesh of another because “all flesh is not the same flesh” (1Cor 15:39). An interesting fact that relates to our inquiry is that God created the species here on earth “according to their kind” (Gen 1:24-25) so as not to be able to procreate, intermingle DNA, with other species. Although deviant sexual behaviors can be practiced, humans cannot procreate with bears, horses, cows, nor dogs. Additionally, bears cannot procreate with horses, nor dogs with cows. It is clear that God has created boundaries and limits to what species mankind can procreate with. It would be reasonable to think these boundaries pertained to all species outside of the human race, including angels. Angels were most likely created according to their kind (celestial and terrestrial bodies), just like every other created species in the Bible (Gen 1:24-25, 1 Cor 15:39-40). One might ask, if the Scripture tells us that “all flesh is not the same flesh” (1Cor 15:39) and God made this boundary for mankind to be unable to intermingle genetic material with other species, then what would be God’s purpose for not including this boundary between humans and angels?

Argument From Reason - Angels Not Intended To Marry Concept
Logic would seem to tell us that if angels were never intended to marry (Matt 22:30) or be given in marriage in heaven. Then those angels were never given the ability to reproduce, i.e., they were never intended to be given a directive of “be fruitful and multiply” (Gen 1:22). For what would be God’s purpose for giving angels the ability to reproduce if none of the angels were ever intended to marry or be given a directive of “be fruitful and multiply”? Since sexual relations is only permitted through marriage for self aware beings then it follows that if God never intends angels to marry then He never intends angles to procreate. Further, all the angels referenced in the Bible are done in the masculine, which leads us to two additional points. The first point, grammatical gender is not the same as actual gender. Just because angels are spoken of in the grammatical masculine sense does not mean they are physically of masculine gender, they may be of no gender whatsoever. There is no biblical evidence that reveals that angels actually have a masculine gender (in the reproduction sense). Second, IF it was the case that all angels are of masculine gender, then it is reasonable to think that angels were never intended to procreate with other angels at all because there are no feminine gender angels. So why would God then give them the ability to reproduce with humans if He considered inter-species cohabitation as an abomination and had no intention of angels reproducing with angels?

Argument From Reason - God Created All Things Good Concept
(1) God created all things (John 1:3, Rev 4:11, Col 1:16)
(2) Everything that God created was/is first good (Gen 1:31), for God does not have “pleasure in wickedness” (Psa 5:4).
(3) God created some beings with moral agency (humans and angels).
(4) There is evil in the world.
(5) Therefore, everything that was created was created by God, was first created good, and then became evil/fallen due to moral agency.
(6) Evil spirits are said to be the offspring of evil in the book of Enoch, a new species, neither angel nor human that is created by evil to do evil.
(7) For (6) to be true, either (1b) God did not create all things or (2b) God created evil, to do evil, and therefore is not all good.
(C) Neither (1b) nor (2b) can be true due to (1) and (2) which are necessarily true.
(C) Therefore, (6) is false.


Angels cannot procreate with human woman according to biblical reasoning.


Keep seeking God's truth as if it were hidden treasure (Prov 2)

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I would only add that marriage is not merely a ceremony or celebration. Marriage is a joining. It is a common term. In cooking, you must mix your sauces and let them sit overnight to allow the flavors to marry. It becomes something different over time as the flavors are joined to each other. Physically, this happens over time with food. When you talk of relationships, it is something that happens as what is called a relationship until it is solemnized by a ceremony. The result is a joining.
So when Scripture says that angels are not married or given in marriage it means that they are not joined with any other creature and are not given to be so.
The concept is not limited to cooking. It is a concept used with ropes and many other things because the word marry is a joining, not a party or ceremony.

Paleouss said:

Greetings JD731. Hope and Peace to you in our Lord Jesus Christ

Further, there are no verses that say that angels can impregnate human woman. Lets use some biblical reasoning skills on this topic.


Keep seeking God's truth as if it were hidden treasure (Prov 2)

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Thanks for your treatment of my comments on the subject of angels. I admit that that you could be right on your position and you have obviously adopted a particular manner of study that has led you to your conclusions and it seems to me that you are locked in on them. Therefore I will not answer you point by point because I don't think I can convince you to my way of thinking.

My approach to the words is one of simplicity. The Lord once said that a man must come as a little child trusting him completely and Paul, a man of great intellect said he knows nothing save Jesus and him crucified and when he does know something it is through revelation of the Spirit.

I do think I was accurate when I said that "sons of God" are always in the context of created beings with the Spirit and the appear in only three times in the OT scriptures. There was the "Son of God" in the gospels and this was a man born of a woman that was across "kinds." So there is evidence that a spirit being can produce a physical person.

Not only that but when God had Adam, Eve, and the serpent under interrogation in Ge 3 for their sin he said this to the serpent:

14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, (beguiled the woman) thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it (the seed of the woman) shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Verse 15 seems to be a long range prophecy concerning at least two entities that will oppose one another, the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent. We know about a virgin born physical man who had a dual character, both man and God, whose Father was God, who was also a Spirit. It seems unlike God to present two hermeneutical principles in the same sentence, having the seed of the woman to be physical and the seed of the serpent to be a figure of speech.

We do know the original creation was much different before the judgement of the flood and we are told very little about it. We are told that the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair and they took them wives of the ones they chose and the result was they bore a giant hybrid from the union. Nowhere in the Bible is a definition for the daughters of men to be understood as female children of justified men as opposed to unjust men. Neither is there any evidence since the cross of Christ and the resurrection that sons of God who are married to unsaved females produced giants, mighty men, men of renown.

We do know that more than one class of angels exist. There are the Seraphim and the Cherubim, the Archangels and the ministering spirits sent forth to minister to them who shall be ministers of salvation. There are a group that is referred to as the "Watchers." It could be that these "sons of God" could be a unique class of angels and at least some of them at some point left their own habitation and God judged them and reserved them to the final judgement in chains.

The angels habitation is in the second heaven and the metaphor for angels is stars. When the LORD is referring to the LORD of hosts he is speaking of this army of angels, ready for battle. One third of the host rebelled with Satan and followed him. We have some information about the activity of the angels from the coming of Jesus Christ to suffer until he comes back to reign.

I could be wrong but I am at this point holding firm because your explanation left many unanswered questions. I will quote the end of the rebel angels.

Re 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.



Thanks for engaging.

Greetings

JD731 said:

Thanks for your treatment of my comments on the subject of angels.

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And thank you for what appears to be a considerate, well thought out post.

JD731 said:

I do think I was accurate when I said that "sons of God" are always in the context of created beings with the Spirit and the appear in only three times in the OT scriptures.

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I agree with some of your analysis. But where I didn't agree was when you said in post #4...

JD731 said:

Sons of God are, without exception, possessors of the Spirit of God, whether created with the Spirit as Adam and the angels that fell or those who were born of the Spirit, the church, in the NT times.

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There are some nit-picky things I would change the wording (because I think they would lead to error) but the major objection regarding our topic is when you wrote "and the angels that fell". Now I am unclear as to your full implication of this because you didn't expand but I presumed it was the usual Gen 6:2,4 angel advocate line of thought. That line of thought being...

(1) All angels are created good and called at one time "angels of God" (Gen 28:12, Gen 32:1, Matt 22:30, Luke 12:8, Luke 12:9, Luke 15:10, John 1:51, Hebrews 1:6).
(2) Some angels then fall
(3) Those fallen angels were once created good
(4) Therefore fallen angels are called "angles of God" after they fall

If we study the Scripture we find out that the above logic is in error. Within the biblical text, angels that are in the favor of God are referred to as being “angels of God” (Gen 28:12, Gen 32:1, Matt 22:30, Luke 12:8, Luke 12:9, Luke 15:10, John 1:51, Hebrews 1:6), “sons of the mighty” (Psalm 89:6), “holy ones” (Psalm 89:5), “holy watchers” (Daniel 4:13). Those that are not referenced as being in God’s favor (like fallen angels) are depicted within the biblical text as being “cursed” (Matt 25:41), “leading the world astray” (Rev 12:9), being in Hell and chained (2Pet 2:4), or kept in chains under darkness (we are excluding Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7 for the time being).

This fact, that no image of spiritual affiliation is used for the fallen, is reinforced by the understanding that no other reference within the biblical text gives imagery or affiliation of being ‘from’ or ‘of’ God in the present tense to any fallen angel or profane unbelieving man. At the very most, the fallen angel might be referred to as being "perfect" (Eze 28:15) in the past tense like Isaiah 14:12, "How you have fallen from heaven, you star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth...".

It would then follow that applying the idiom "sons of God" to the fallen just because they were once good and once in the favor of God (but now are not) would be an error. The Bible doesn't give monikers of favor to the fallen, therefore "sons of God" in Genesis 6:2,4 cannot be a fallen man or angel.

JD731 said:

here was the "Son of God" in the gospels and this was a man born of a woman that was across "kinds."

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This appears to be an unnecessary reach. I don't fell comfortable accepting this as truth based on God's word. What you have basically done is suggested that God is a lier because the Son of God came in the flesh. It's not my truth that "all flesh is not the same flesh" (1Cor 15:39), it is God's. It's not my truth that there is only "one kind of flesh of men" (1Cor 15:39), it is God's. It is not my truth that there is also a flesh of "celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies" (1cor 15:40), it is God's truth according to His word to us.

JD731 said:

So there is evidence that a spirit being can produce a physical person.

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To be accurate, the "spirit being" in which you speak is the Holy Spirit, i.e., the third person of the Trinity (God). The "physical person" in which you speak is the Son of God (eternal and has no beginning or end, He is the Alpha and Omega), i.e., the second person of the Trinity (God).

With a sleight of language, one cannot use what God can do as an example of what created things can or cannot do. Particularly if there is evidence or reasonable biblical reasoning to the contrary.

JD731 said:

Not only that but when God had Adam, Eve, and the serpent under interrogation in Ge 3 for their sin he said this to the serpent:

14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, (beguiled the woman) thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it (the seed of the woman) shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Verse 15 seems to be a long range prophecy concerning at least two entities that will oppose one another, the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent. We know about a virgin born physical man who had a dual character, both man and God, whose Father was God, who was also a Spirit. It seems unlike God to present two hermeneutical principles in the same sentence, having the seed of the woman to be physical and the seed of the serpent to be a figure of speech.

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Well, I have a lot of objections to what you just wrote. But for the sake of staying on topic, I'll refrain. I don't see anything here that would suggest that angelic beings can procreate with human women. Are you saying that Satan will procreate with a human woman?

JD731 said:

It could be that these "sons of God" could be a unique class of angels and at least some of them at some point left their own habitation and God judged them and reserved them to the final judgement in chains.

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I would like to point out that what you just wrote is speculation. That is, you speculate that these might be "a unique class of angels" to get around the explicit biblical truth that "all flesh is not the same flesh" (1Cor 15:39). We would be preferring speculation to dismiss obvious truth in order to continue hold something to be true that may not be.

JD731 said:

We do know the original creation was much different before the judgement of the flood and we are told very little about it. We are told that the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair and they took them wives of the ones they chose and the result was they bore a giant hybrid from the union. Nowhere in the Bible is a definition for the daughters of men to be understood as female children of justified men as opposed to unjust men. Neither is there any evidence since the cross of Christ and the resurrection that sons of God who are married to unsaved females produced giants, mighty men, men of renown.

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As I said in my first post. This topic is large and requires a lot of sifting to expel the errors. A couple of points since this topic you just addressed in the quote above could use its own thread.

(a) Nowhere in scripture does is say "the result was they bore a giant hybrid from the union". Nor is there any verse that implies it.

You are referring to Genesis 6:1-4. In particular, the hybrid comment is referring to Genesis 6:4 which again, doesn't say that or imply it.

(b) "daughter's of men" is an idiom just like "sons of God". It has meaning that is common in the Bible and particularly in the OT, imo, and is clearly referring to the "daughters" from Genesis 6:1.

For a good study, dive into Genesis 6:1 and particularly the Hebrew word כִּי־הֵחֵל (kî hê·ḥêl), often translated to English as “when began” (NKJV, ESV, NASB). According to Strong’s, the root ḥālal H2490, translates to profane, defile, pollute, desecrate, begin. This Hebrew word hê·ḥêl occurs only 19 times within the entire Bible in this exact form. Of those 19 occurrence of hê·ḥêl in this exact form, the Hebrew word is clearly used 18 of those times within the context of defilement and rebellion.

So Genesis 6:1 is referring to ungodly men and by implication, ungodly daughters. In other words, Genesis 6:1 is meant to be read like this, imo, ...[So it] happened, when began/profane man to multiply on the face of the earth,".

JD731 said:

The angels habitation is in the second heaven and the metaphor for angels is stars. When the LORD is referring to the LORD of hosts he is speaking of this army of angels, ready for battle. One third of the host rebelled with Satan and followed him. We have some information about the activity of the angels from the coming of Jesus Christ to suffer until he comes back to reign.

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I'm missing the point here. If you thought it was important to the case that angels can procreate with human woman you might present it a different way.

JD731 said:

Thanks for engaging.

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Thank you and blessing to you and yours


May God's truth be glorified

Paleouss said:

Greetings


And thank you for what appears to be a considerate, well thought out post.

I agree with some of your analysis. But where I didn't agree was when you said in post #4...

There are some nit-picky things I would change the wording (because I think they would lead to error) but the major objection regarding our topic is when you wrote "and the angels that fell". Now I am unclear as to your full implication of this because you didn't expand but I presumed it was the usual Gen 6:2,4 angel advocate line of thought. That line of thought being...

(1) All angels are created good and called at one time "angels of God" (Gen 28:12, Gen 32:1, Matt 22:30, Luke 12:8, Luke 12:9, Luke 15:10, John 1:51, Hebrews 1:6).
(2) Some angels then fall
(3) Those fallen angels were once created good
(4) Therefore fallen angels are called "angles of God" after they fall

If we study the Scripture we find out that the above logic is in error. Within the biblical text, angels that are in the favor of God are referred to as being “angels of God” (Gen 28:12, Gen 32:1, Matt 22:30, Luke 12:8, Luke 12:9, Luke 15:10, John 1:51, Hebrews 1:6), “sons of the mighty” (Psalm 89:6), “holy ones” (Psalm 89:5), “holy watchers” (Daniel 4:13). Those that are not referenced as being in God’s favor (like fallen angels) are depicted within the biblical text as being “cursed” (Matt 25:41), “leading the world astray” (Rev 12:9), being in Hell and chained (2Pet 2:4), or kept in chains under darkness (we are excluding Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7 for the time being).

This fact, that no image of spiritual affiliation is used for the fallen, is reinforced by the understanding that no other reference within the biblical text gives imagery or affiliation of being ‘from’ or ‘of’ God in the present tense to any fallen angel or profane unbelieving man. At the very most, the fallen angel might be referred to as being "perfect" (Eze 28:15) in the past tense like Isaiah 14:12, "How you have fallen from heaven, you star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth...".

It would then follow that applying the idiom "sons of God" to the fallen just because they were once good and once in the favor of God (but now are not) would be an error. The Bible doesn't give monikers of favor to the fallen, therefore "sons of God" in Genesis 6:2,4 cannot be a fallen man or angel.


This appears to be an unnecessary reach. I don't fell comfortable accepting this as truth based on God's word. What you have basically done is suggested that God is a lier because the Son of God came in the flesh. It's not my truth that "all flesh is not the same flesh" (1Cor 15:39), it is God's. It's not my truth that there is only "one kind of flesh of men" (1Cor 15:39), it is God's. It is not my truth that there is also a flesh of "celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies" (1cor 15:40), it is God's truth according to His word to us.

To be accurate, the "spirit being" in which you speak is the Holy Spirit, i.e., the third person of the Trinity (God). The "physical person" in which you speak is the Son of God (eternal and has no beginning or end, He is the Alpha and Omega), i.e., the second person of the Trinity (God).

With a sleight of language, one cannot use what God can do as an example of what created things can or cannot do. Particularly if there is evidence or reasonable biblical reasoning to the contrary.

Well, I have a lot of objections to what you just wrote. But for the sake of staying on topic, I'll refrain. I don't see anything here that would suggest that angelic beings can procreate with human women. Are you saying that Satan will procreate with a human woman?

I would like to point out that what you just wrote is speculation. That is, you speculate that these might be "a unique class of angels" to get around the explicit biblical truth that "all flesh is not the same flesh" (1Cor 15:39). We would be preferring speculation to dismiss obvious truth in order to continue hold something to be true that may not be.

As I said in my first post. This topic is large and requires a lot of sifting to expel the errors. A couple of points since this topic you just addressed in the quote above could use its own thread.

(a) Nowhere in scripture does is say "the result was they bore a giant hybrid from the union". Nor is there any verse that implies it.

You are referring to Genesis 6:1-4. In particular, the hybrid comment is referring to Genesis 6:4 which again, doesn't say that or imply it.

(b) "daughter's of men" is an idiom just like "sons of God". It has meaning that is common in the Bible and particularly in the OT, imo, and is clearly referring to the "daughters" from Genesis 6:1.

For a good study, dive into Genesis 6:1 and particularly the Hebrew word כִּי־הֵחֵל (kî hê·ḥêl), often translated to English as “when began” (NKJV, ESV, NASB). According to Strong’s, the root ḥālal H2490, translates to profane, defile, pollute, desecrate, begin. This Hebrew word hê·ḥêl occurs only 19 times within the entire Bible in this exact form. Of those 19 occurrence of hê·ḥêl in this exact form, the Hebrew word is clearly used 18 of those times within the context of defilement and rebellion.

So Genesis 6:1 is referring to ungodly men and by implication, ungodly daughters. In other words, Genesis 6:1 is meant to be read like this, imo, ...[So it] happened, when began/profane man to multiply on the face of the earth,".


I'm missing the point here. If you thought it was important to the case that angels can procreate with human woman you might present it a different way.


Thank you and blessing to you and yours


May God's truth be glorified

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I wish I had your way with words because I admire your eloquence, but I suppose I am victim to my own decisions about my education. By the way, nice post.

Shalom.

th1bill said:

I wish I had your way with words because I admire your eloquence, but I suppose I am victim to my own decisions about my education. By the way, nice post.

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Thank you for the compliment. The truth of my words, if there are any, is from God. All the errors are mine. Glory be to God!

th1bill said:

Shalom.

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Peace to you as well, brother

Paleouss said:

Greetings


And thank you for what appears to be a considerate, well thought out post.

I agree with some of your analysis. But where I didn't agree was when you said in post #4...

There are some nit-picky things I would change the wording (because I think they would lead to error) but the major objection regarding our topic is when you wrote "and the angels that fell". Now I am unclear as to your full implication of this because you didn't expand but I presumed it was the usual Gen 6:2,4 angel advocate line of thought. That line of thought being...

(1) All angels are created good and called at one time "angels of God" (Gen 28:12, Gen 32:1, Matt 22:30, Luke 12:8, Luke 12:9, Luke 15:10, John 1:51, Hebrews 1:6).
(2) Some angels then fall
(3) Those fallen angels were once created good
(4) Therefore fallen angels are called "angles of God" after they fall

Click to expand...

It is not within the ways of God to throw terms out without defining them. When he uses the term "sons of God" he gives enough information in other parts of the Bible so we can use wisdom in our studies and we can compare them. With diligence and a bended knee and a heart to receive the light God gives, the Spirit teaches us through the words he has chosen.

Here is what I know for sure about the sons of God. As I have said already, the term is used for both men and angels. There were only two men in the OT times that were said to have the Spirit of God as an indwelling presence in their bodies that gave them power to obey God in everything. They were in the image of God, both of them, a trinity, soul, body. and the Spirit of God indwelling them. However, there is not true obedience without a test and when Adam was tested he fell by his own free will to fall, and the scriptures said he died that day. The fall was his spiritual death. It simply meant that the presence of God in the person of the Spirit departed his person leaving him as a bi-partite creature, soul and body with no inherent power over the flesh, the world and the devil. Ge 5:1, all the offspring of Adam were born in his image, soul and body, into a world with sin ruling as a sovereign over all those born of his bloodline. This according to Romans 5, You should read the chapter now to see that I am telling you the truth. Luke writes in his chapter 3 verse 38 that Adam was the son of God.

The second man (do you get the picture from 1 Cor 15) is Jesus Christ. He was born of the virgin Mary, of God, his father, and separated from the tainted bloodline of Adam yet having a dual character, God and man in the same person. He was in the image of God from his birth and the scripture says these things about him

Ga 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: This man Jesus (Jehovah is salvation) was from his birth filled with the Spirit of God and his righteousness came from the power of the Spirit which was in him. I will give you two scriptures to prove this though I could give you many more.

1 )Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jn 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

2) Jn 3:31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.
33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.
34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

Life is the Holy Spirit of God and the Spirit is Life, God himself.

The testimony of God is that there are only two men in the OT times that were sons of God, being in his trinitarian image, which lets out the possibility that the sons of God in Ge 6 who married the daughters of men and produced giants as offspring from the union were themselves men of the human race. Now, I would like to posit some reasoning for this conclusion and hope you will consider it.

First, a purpose of God in sending Jesus Christ is to renew the pristine order through him, which is a world without sin and a perfect man having dominion over it all. It is stated here.

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

If men in Ge 6 already had the Holy Ghost and were regenerated by him then the work of Jesus Christ would not be needed. Men without the Holy Ghost are not saved. They are not in the image of Jesus Christ who is the very image of God. (he that has seen me has seen the Father, he once said).

1 Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Romans 8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

1 Jn 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God,
This is after the cross and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

But here is logic and reasoning from the scriptures that cannot be denied:

Ga 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise (the Spirit, Life - read Verse 14 now) by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

In Romans 8 the scriptures say this:
Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

I am making a biblical case that those who were called sons of God in Ge 6 cannot be men. The Spirit of God must indwell the body of the son of God.
Ro 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Sadly, hardly anyone among the Baptists on this board can define what it means to be saved. Regeneration is defined as having ones sins washed away by the blood of Christ and the renewing of the Holy Ghost. It is RE generation. It is being born again of the Soirit when we believe from the heart what Jesus Christ accomplished for us in his sinless life on earth and in his death and resurrection. We are born again in his family and are children of God.

My conclusion is that all that is said about Jesus Christ being the only way to God takes a great hit if the sons of God are men in Ge 6.

We can speak about the angels later.