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Baptism Doth Also Now Save Us

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
God simply decides who He wants to save out of the bunch. Remember, He's not obligated to save anyone at all—looks like quite the loving God to me.
God saves but the question is why does He save one person and not another?

If we go by your view then it is based on the whim of God, an arbitrary choice. Is that what you are saying?

If there is no condition for ones salvation except God's choice of whom He will save and He could have saved all but lets the vast majority burn in hell that does not seem very loving to me.

When you make a claim, it's expected that it should be backed up by Scripture. So far, I'm not seeing that from your side.
So what Paul has said about the coming of Christ through the line of Isaac and Jacob considering Rom 9:5 "from whom is the Christ according to the flesh" is not clear enough for you.

If one is given faith, hears the Gospel, and believes it, then what the text says makes perfect sense.

Where do you get this "one is given faith". You make the claim but we do not see that in scripture.

What we do see is man responding with faith to the various means God uses to draw man to Himself.

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed,...

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes,

I see the person responding with faith to the gospel message but what I do not see is your idea that God has to give them faith. That has to be read into to the text.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
'We only use the term 'Calvinism' for shortness. That doctrine which is called 'Calvinism' did not spring from Calvin; we believe that it sprang from the great Founder of all truth. ...... We use the term then, not because we impute any extraordinary importance to Calvin's having taught these doctrines. We would be just as willing to call them by any other name, if we could find one which would be better understood, and which on the whole would be as consistent with fact........
'I have my own private opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what is nowadays called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the gospel if we do not preach justification by faith, without works; nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in His dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing, unchangeable eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah; nor do I think we can preach the gospel, unless we base it upon the special and particular redememption of His elect and chosen people which Christ wrought out upon the cross.'

[C.H. Spurgeon. From Chapter 13 of The Early Years, volume 1 of his autobiography ]

To be a Calvinist is nothing else than to be a Biblicist.

So would prefer to be called an Augustinian as that is the foundation of the false teachings that have come down to modern day calvinists through Calvin.

Augustine ran back to the pagan teachings he had held and incorporated them into his teaching which Calvin later picked up and have been brought forward into the teachings of calvinists today.

If calvinism were indeed biblical then it's DoG/TULIP would actually align with scripture but they do not.
 

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
So would prefer to be called an Augustinian as that is the foundation of the false teachings that have come down to modern day calvinists through Calvin.
No, Calvinist suits me fine, thanks.
Augustine ran back to the pagan teachings he had held and incorporated them into his teaching which Calvin later picked up and have been brought forward into the teachings of calvinists today.

If calvinism were indeed biblical then it's DoG/TULIP would actually align with scripture but they do not.
They do align with Scripture, and if you knew Scripture properly you would realise that. Now stop with the snide comments. They do you no credit.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
No, Calvinist suits me fine, thanks.

They do align with Scripture, and if you knew Scripture properly you would realise that. Now stop with the snide comments. They do you no credit.

What snide remarks Martin?

The fact is that the basis of calvinism is Augustine's pagan philosophy.

If you knew your bible you would realize that pagan philosophy does not align with scripture.

I would seem that you think the proper way to understand scripture is to make scripture support your false religion.

Dr. Ken Wilson’s “The Foundation of Augustinian-Calvinism” is a summarization of his Oxford doctoral thesis.

In Chapter 1

Wilson sets off by defining these influential philosophies as ‘Stoicism, Neoplatonism, Gnosticism, and Manicheanism’ that all gave life to Augustine’s later theology, coining what Wilson describes as “divine unilateral predetermination of individuals’ eternal destines” or “DUPIED” (pg.5) in short. Wilson mentions that for the Stoics, there was assumed freedom that was ultimately “hidden within a mere facade of “free will (Pg.7)”. For Neoplatonists, a free choice meant that there is a need for the restoration “by divine infusion to restore the will (pg.9).” For Gnostics, “all works are predestined, discipline and abstinence effect nothing, and the elect are saved by knowing that they are saved (pg.12).” Lastly, for Manicheans, man’s “‘enslaved will’ cannot choose – it is damned until unilaterally released” by God’s own initiative (pg.14). In summation, Wilson notes that all these philosophies “requires the divine being to unilaterally awaken a “dead soul” who then only can respond to the divine person (pg.16).”



"The idea that God unchangeably predestines His own children to reject His own truth for His own glory is so intuitively false that we don’t need to refute it.
We just need to make sure that everyone understands that’s what Calvinism entails so they know to reject it." L. Flowers
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
As I see it the only way a Calvinist can preach the biblical truth of salvation is to preach as an Arminian. They would have to preach that the gospel is the power of God for salvation to all that freely believe, that if they confess with their mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in their heart that God raised Him from the dead, they would be saved.

If they preached the Callvinist view of salvation that if they were not picked out prior to creation then they were lost and there was nothing they could do about it. They would just have to wait for God to give them faith if they happened to be one of the lucky ones that He had picked out. If He did not then well they should just be happy as His sending them to hell was just to glorify Him.
 

Craigbythesea

Well-Known Member
Unfortunately this is not quite what Paul wrote. The NSRV has added the word 'as' on two occasions.
Here is the NKJV translation: 'there is also an antitype that saves us - baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience towards God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.'

The point is that the subordinate clauses tell us what the baptism that saves is not, and what it actually is. It is not getting wet - the removal of dirt or filth from the flesh. The getting wet is an ordinance of Jesus Christ (Matt. 28:19) and not be be ignored or disobeyed, but it does not save. The baptism that saves is 'the answer [or 'pledge'] of a good conscience towards God.' It can only be the baptism of the Holy Spirit which enables the one saved by grace to obey the ordinance of Christ. That seems to have been your experience; it was also mine.

I rather think they did.
Christians, with the exception of those whose theology is Baptist (with or without add-ons), believe that the grace of God for salvation is normatively conferred upon the believer through water baptism. And this was the virtually the unanimous view of the Church for 1600 years—even surviving the first 100 years of the Protestant Reformation!

However, this was NOT my experience! I was saved and filled with the Holy Spirit for several weeks before I was baptized in water by immersion. Millions of other Christians have had a similar experience. But Peter did not share that experience, and in his first epistle, he wrote,

1 Peter 3:21 ὃ καὶ ὑμᾶς ἀντίτυπον νῦν σῴζει βάπτισμα, οὐ σαρκὸς ἀπόθεσις ῥύπου ἀλλὰ συνειδήσεως ἀγαθῆς ἐπερώτημα εἰς θεόν, δι’ ἀναστάσεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ
22 ὅς ἐστιν ἐν δεξιᾷ τοῦ θεοῦ πορευθεὶς εἰς οὐρανὸν ὑποταγέντων αὐτῷ ἀγγέλων καὶ ἐξουσιῶν καὶ δυνάμεων. (NA28)

21. And baptism, which this prefigured, now saves you—not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22. who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers made subject to him. (NRSV)

In each of these two verses, there is only one verb in the indicative mood—and hence there is only one main clause in each of the verses. In verse 21, the verb that is in the indicative mood is the verb σῴζει (saves) giving us the primary clause, “baptism now saves you.” All of the other clauses are subordinate clauses, and being subordinate clauses, they can add qualifiers, but they cannot change the primary clause, “baptism now saves you.” Peter wrote it, but I did not experience it. A whole lot has happened in the church since Peter penned these words, and they are not applicable to everyone today.

However, there are some people today who insist that Peter is NOT teaching here about water baptism, but spiritual baptism even though Peter himself wrote,

1 Peter 3:20. who in former times did not obey, when God waited patiently in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.
21. And baptism, which this prefigured, now saves you--not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for {Or [a pledge to God from]} a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22. who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers made subject to him.

Indeed, even Calvin expressly taught that in this passage of Scripture Peter is teaching about water baptism.
 

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
What snide remarks Martin?

The fact is that the basis of calvinism is Augustine's pagan philosophy.
Not a fact, but a silly, prejudiced error.
If you knew your bible you would realize that pagan philosophy does not align with scripture.

I would seem that you think the proper way to understand scripture is to make scripture support your false religion.
Here is another snide remark. No quotation, no evidence, no Scriptural evidence, just a rather nasty way of putting forward your unbiblical views. You need to stop it.
Dr. Ken Wilson’s “The Foundation of Augustinian-Calvinism” is a summarization of his Oxford doctoral thesis.

In Chapter 1

Wilson sets off by defining these influential philosophies as ‘Stoicism, Neoplatonism, Gnosticism, and Manicheanism’ that all gave life to Augustine’s later theology, coining what Wilson describes as “divine unilateral predetermination of individuals’ eternal destines” or “DUPIED” (pg.5) in short. Wilson mentions that for the Stoics, there was assumed freedom that was ultimately “hidden within a mere facade of “free will (Pg.7)”. For Neoplatonists, a free choice meant that there is a need for the restoration “by divine infusion to restore the will (pg.9).” For Gnostics, “all works are predestined, discipline and abstinence effect nothing, and the elect are saved by knowing that they are saved (pg.12).” Lastly, for Manicheans, man’s “‘enslaved will’ cannot choose – it is damned until unilaterally released” by God’s own initiative (pg.14). In summation, Wilson notes that all these philosophies “requires the divine being to unilaterally awaken a “dead soul” who then only can respond to the divine person (pg.16).”
These things have nothing to do with Augustine's theology. PhD graduates who don't believe the Bible are two a penny in the Church of England and I expect they are also in some American denominations.
"The idea that God unchangeably predestines His own children to reject His own truth for His own glory is so intuitively false that we don’t need to refute it.
We just need to make sure that everyone understands that’s what Calvinism entails so they know to reject it." L. Flowers
Flowers shows that he doesn't understand what Calvinism is at all.
It is pretty clear to me that you have never read any Augustine, and probably no Calvin. If you had done so you would be embarrassed to quote such drivel. Here is an actual quotation from Augustine:

'No one will say that "free-will" actually vanished from the human race because of the first man's sin. Yet it is true that sin robbed mankind of "liberty," the liberty that existed in paradise - that is, the liberty we can define as "perfect righteousness with immortality." That is why human nature statnds in need of divine grace. So the Lord says, "If the Son sets you free, you will be really free" (John 8:36) - free for a good and righteous life. Even so, free-will h[as not entirely perished from sinners; for free will is the power by which people commit sin! This is especially the case with all who delight in sinning and love their sin; they choose to do what pleases them [c.f. John 3:19. M.M.]. The Apostle says, 'When you were the slaves of sin, you were free from righteousness' (Romans 6:20). It is clear that people can only become "slaves of sin" only because they are in fact free; for the thing that makes people "free from righteousness is their own sinful choice! By contrast, however, the only thing that makes people "free from sin" is the grace of the Saviour. The admirable teacher Paul makes this very distinction: free from righteousness - set free from sin (Romans 6:20, 22). He says "free" from righteousness, not "set free" from it; but to prevent his Christian readers from taking any credit to themselves, he does not say that they are "free" from sin, but "set free" from it. He deliberately uses the phrase "set free" in harmony with the Lord's statement, "if the Son sets you free." For the children of mankind cannot live a good life unless God makes them into His children. How then can Julian of Eclanum try to pretend that the power to live a good life comes from our own free-will? Only God's grace gives this power through Jesus Christ our Lord.'
[Augustine of Hippo, Concerning Two Letters of Pelagius, chapter one, section 5]

The next question is, what is paganism, and did Augustine follow it? Paganism is a term for polytheistic or pantheistic, nature-oriented religions that often revere multiple deities and the earth itself. [from an AI definition. Here is Augustine again:

'But what is my God? I put this question to the earth. It answered, "I am not God," and everything on earth said the same. I asked the sea and the chasms of the deep, and the living things that creep in them, but they replied, "We are not your God. Seek what is above us." So I sopke to the blowing winds, but the entire atmosphere and all that lives in it replied, "I am not God." Then I asked the sky the sun, the moon, the stars; but they told me, "We are not the God you seek." I spoke to everything around me, all that my senses revealed to me, and I said, "Since you are not my God, tell me about Him. Tell me something of my God!" In a clear and loud voice they replied: "God is the One who made us." I asked these questions simply by gazing at these things, and their beauty was the only answer they gave.'
[Augustine of Hippo, Confessions, Book 10, chapter 6]

In giving these extracts, I am not endorsing everything Augustine wrote. My touchstone is not he, nor Calvin, nor anyone else, but the Bible.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Not a fact, but a silly, prejudiced error.
Martin you are ignoring historical facts.

Do your own research if you think I am wrong. Your claims mean nothing if you cannot back them up.

Here is another snide remark. No quotation, no evidence, no Scriptural evidence, just a rather nasty way of putting forward your unbiblical views. You need to stop it.
Martin I am just responding to the errors that we see in calvinism.
The calvinist DoG/TULIP is not biblical as has been pointed out on this board many times.

That you wish to follow a man-made religion does not make it the standard Martin. The bible is the standard and calvinism has moved away from that standard.

These things have nothing to do with Augustine's theology. PhD graduates who don't believe the Bible are two a penny in the Church of England and I expect they are also in some American denominations.
So you just ignore historical facts. Martin you are proving that it is not the truth you want but rather just agreement with your calvinist views.

FYI Dr. Wilson is a full-time as a Professor of Systematic Theology and Church History at Grace School of Theology.

Only a handful of people in the world have read all of Augustine’s extant works, and Dr. Wilson may be one of only two scholars who have read the massive Augustinian collection in the order it was written (chronologically). This chronological analysis exposed that “Augustine departed from what the earliest church fathers believed about people’s freedom to choose God,” says Wilson.


“The early church did not view God as deterministic, but Augustine changed that by combining Christianity with Gnostic Manichaeism, Stoicism, and Neoplatonism.” Because of Augustine’s immersion in Greek philosophy (Stoicism and Neoplatonism) and Gnostic Manichaeism, his version of Christianity became deterministic – everything is unilaterally predetermined by God.

Martin you do not have to like what Dr Wilson says but you cannot deny the truth of what he says.
Flowers shows that he doesn't understand what Calvinism is at all.
That is the standard response from all you calvinists to someone that points out the errors of your religion.

Even when we quote your favorite teachers you say it is wrong.

The reality is that those that oppose calvinism do so because we do understand calvinism.

As L.Flowers correctly said there are only two views of Calvinism
If error:
The reason most Christians reject it is because they have good discernment.
If true:
The ultimate reason most resist it is because God sovereignly and unchangeably decreed their resistance for His own glory.

The next question is, what is paganism, and did Augustine follow it?
So are you saying that the Stoic, Neoplatonist, Gnostic and Manichean philosophy were not pagan?

Well since their views have been adopted by calvinism then you would have to hold that view.

Stoics, assumed freedom “hidden within a mere facade of “free will”
Neoplatonists, a free choice “by divine infusion to restore the will.”
Gnostics, “the elect are saved by knowing that they are saved”
Manicheans, man’s “‘enslaved will’ cannot choose – it is damned until unilaterally released”

In summation, Wilson notes that all these philosophies “requires the divine being to unilaterally awaken a “dead soul”

I have asked other calvinists to provide proof that counters what Dr.Wilson has said but none have even made the attempt. The ball is now in your park Martin.
 

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Martin you are ignoring historical facts.

Do your own research if you think I am wrong. Your claims mean nothing if you cannot back them up.


Martin I am just responding to the errors that we see in calvinism.
The calvinist DoG/TULIP is not biblical as has been pointed out on this board many times.

That you wish to follow a man-made religion does not make it the standard Martin. The bible is the standard and calvinism has moved away from that standard.


So you just ignore historical facts. Martin you are proving that it is not the truth you want but rather just agreement with your calvinist views.

FYI Dr. Wilson is a full-time as a Professor of Systematic Theology and Church History at Grace School of Theology.

Only a handful of people in the world have read all of Augustine’s extant works, and Dr. Wilson may be one of only two scholars who have read the massive Augustinian collection in the order it was written (chronologically). This chronological analysis exposed that “Augustine departed from what the earliest church fathers believed about people’s freedom to choose God,” says Wilson.


“The early church did not view God as deterministic, but Augustine changed that by combining Christianity with Gnostic Manichaeism, Stoicism, and Neoplatonism.” Because of Augustine’s immersion in Greek philosophy (Stoicism and Neoplatonism) and Gnostic Manichaeism, his version of Christianity became deterministic – everything is unilaterally predetermined by God.

Martin you do not have to like what Dr Wilson says but you cannot deny the truth of what he says.

That is the standard response from all you calvinists to someone that points out the errors of your religion.

Even when we quote your favorite teachers you say it is wrong.

The reality is that those that oppose calvinism do so because we do understand calvinism.

As L.Flowers correctly said there are only two views of Calvinism
If error:
The reason most Christians reject it is because they have good discernment.
If true:
The ultimate reason most resist it is because God sovereignly and unchangeably decreed their resistance for His own glory.


So are you saying that the Stoic, Neoplatonist, Gnostic and Manichean philosophy were not pagan?

Well since their views have been adopted by calvinism then you would have to hold that view.

Stoics, assumed freedom “hidden within a mere facade of “free will”
Neoplatonists, a free choice “by divine infusion to restore the will.”
Gnostics, “the elect are saved by knowing that they are saved”
Manicheans, man’s “‘enslaved will’ cannot choose – it is damned until unilaterally released”

In summation, Wilson notes that all these philosophies “requires the divine being to unilaterally awaken a “dead soul”

I have asked other calvinists to provide proof that counters what Dr.Wilson has said but none have even made the attempt. The ball is now in your park Martin.
Oh boy! I actually quoted some of Augustine, and you couldn't be bothered to so much as mention it. I know more about Augustine than you may suppose. I know that before his conversion he was into Manichaeism and then Neoplatonism. That is no secret. But what does it matter? 'Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.' Judge Augustine, and many other Christians who have gone through erroneous phases by what they write or preach, not what they may have believed at some stage in the past. Paul was a Pharisee! It may well be that a Christian leader is stronger for having been exposed to other teachings before his conversion. At the very least he is able to counsel those enmeshed in the same errors that he once was.
In summation, Wilson notes that all these philosophies “requires the divine being to unilaterally awaken a “dead soul”
That is not their error. So does the Bible. :)
 

Martin Marprelate

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Manicheans, man’s “‘enslaved will’ cannot choose – it is damned until unilaterally released”
I don't believe this is correct. Mani taught that the universe could be explained as a conflict between the two equal forces of Light and Darkness. Humans must realise that they are a mixture of these two forces, and devote their lives to purifying themselves from all darkness.
To purify themselves, people must abstain from everything that binds them to the physical material world.

There is more to it than that, but it sounds more of a works religion than one of grace.
 

37818

Well-Known Member
I would say that he was saved by the ark.
Yes, Noah and his family were saved by being in the ark. But what was Noah and his family saved from by water of the flood being in the ark?
2 Peter 3:6, Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: . . . .

Romans 6:4, . . . we also should walk in newness of life.
 
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Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Oh boy! I actually quoted some of Augustine, and you couldn't be bothered to so much as mention it. I know more about Augustine than you may suppose. I know that before his conversion he was into Manichaeism and then Neoplatonism. That is no secret. But what does it matter? 'Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.' Judge Augustine, and many other Christians who have gone through erroneous phases by what they write or preach, not what they may have believed at some stage in the past. Paul was a Pharisee! It may well be that a Christian leader is stronger for having been exposed to other teachings before his conversion. At the very least he is able to counsel those enmeshed in the same errors that he once was.

That is not their error. So does the Bible. :)

I note that you did not even bother to address the pagan views that Augustine brought into the church and which your calvinism still promotes.

Yes we do need to judge Augustine by what he wrote which is just what Dr. Wilson and many other scholars have done.

If Augustine had not run back to his earlier pagan views then it would not be a problem, but he did and as a result they were carried forward by Calvin and later calvinists.

And now you even go so far as to support pagan philosophy yourself
Manicheans, man’s “‘enslaved will’ cannot choose – it is damned until unilaterally released”

Odd that you would say that as the bible is quite clear that man can hear and respond to the gospel message and Paul even says it is "the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes"

And further says man has no excuse for not knowing God. " For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse."

So while your pagan philosophy says God has to “unilaterally awaken a “dead soul”
The bible shows that man has the free will which enables anyone too respond to the truth of salvation through faith.

I have asked other calvinists to provide proof that counters what Dr.Wilson has said but none have even made the attempt.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
I don't believe this is correct. Mani taught that the universe could be explained as a conflict between the two equal forces of Light and Darkness. Humans must realise that they are a mixture of these two forces, and devote their lives to purifying themselves from all darkness.
To purify themselves, people must abstain from everything that binds them to the physical material world.

There is more to it than that, but it sounds more of a works religion than one of grace.

Since I have not read Mani I can not comment on what he wrote.

The problem is what Augustine wrote and what he brought into the church and that calvinism carries forward.

Are you saying that these pagan views are not found in calvinism?

Stoics, assumed freedom “hidden within a mere facade of “free will”
Neoplatonists, a free choice “by divine infusion to restore the will.”
Gnostics, “the elect are saved by knowing that they are saved”
Manicheans, man’s “‘enslaved will’ cannot choose – it is damned until unilaterally released”
 
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