Baptism Doth Also Now Save Us

[SovereignGrace]

Jews used to baptize everyone and everything in any number of ways and for all kinds of reasons.

They would baptize a couch before sitting on it if they felt the situation called for it.

That’s quite a stretch to the meaning applied to βαπτισμός (baptismos). That word doesn’t solely mean immersion, but washing as well. So, they weren’t literally immersing couches in water, but washing them. I know this user hasn’t been on here in a while, but wanted to address the post even when the poster no longer frequents the forum.

 

[Silverhair]

You have not proved that he did. According to all I have read, he left them behind when he became a Christian.

Have you read all of Augustine? Dr. Wilson did and he came to the conclusion that Augustine incorporated pagan views into his theology.

But Wilson is not the only one to say that.

You say he left those views behind when he became a Christian but we see those same pagan views in today's calvinism.

Calvin heavily relied on Augustine for his doctrinal views, often quoting him extensively in his writings, particularly in "Institutes of the Christian Religion." Augustine's teachings on grace, salvation, and predestination significantly influenced Calvin's theology, making Augustine a central figure in Calvin's understanding of Christian doctrine.

So if the pagan views did not come from Augustine then where did Calvin get them?

 

[Silverhair]

These religions are far more complicated than that. I studied Classics at University as an unconverted teenager and I did study something of Platonism, both in its earlier form in Greece and its later form in the Roman Empire. It is a fact that many (most?) of the early Church Fathers were converted out of Neoplatonism. Justin Martyr was one that you may have heard of; Aristides and Athenagoras (look them up!) were two more. Clement of Alexandria described the Christian as the "true Gnostic." I can probably dig out half a dozen others if you want.

The Stoics, as I recall, made a great thing of the human will. They taught that the human could only find true fulfilment by living in harmony with reason.

All Christians came out of some false views so saying Justin Martyr came out of a false religion is not a surprise.

But coming out of a false religion is not the problem it is that Augustine brought the false pagan views into the church and Calvin just carried them forward.

Clement of Alexandria may have described the Christian as the "true Gnostic." But he was not ascribing Gnostic philosophy to Christians.

Gnostic philosophy is a collection of religious and philosophical ideas that emphasize personal spiritual knowledge (gnosis) over traditional religious authority. It often involves the belief in a flawed creator god (the demiurge) and a higher, transcendent divine being, focusing on the idea that the material world is imperfect and that salvation comes through mystical insight.

Christians have the true knowledge of the means of salvation a clearer understanding of who God is.

From what you write I have to conclude that you are in agreement with the pagan views of the Stoics, Neoplatonists, Gnostics, & Manicheans.

 

[percho]

That’s quite a stretch to the meaning applied to βαπτισμός (baptismos). That word doesn’t solely mean immersion, but washing as well. So, they weren’t literally immersing couches in water, but washing them. I know this user hasn’t been on here in a while, but wanted to address the post even when the poster no longer frequents the forum.

I was going to post.

Luke 12:50 but I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how am I pressed till it may be completed!

In the reality is not the above baptism the baptism that saves us? Is not water baptism just a picture of we being baptized unto the death of Christ showing us to having been made righteous in Christ, with Christ having gone through the death [baptism]? [a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ;]

Consider;
Heb 2:14,15 Seeing, then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, he himself also in like manner did take part of the same, that through [the] death he might destroy him having the power of death -- that is, the devil -- and might deliver those, whoever, with fear of death, throughout all their life, were subjects of bondage,