Baptism Doth Also Now Save Us

[SovereignGrace]

Jews used to baptize everyone and everything in any number of ways and for all kinds of reasons.

They would baptize a couch before sitting on it if they felt the situation called for it.

That’s quite a stretch to the meaning applied to βαπτισμός (baptismos). That word doesn’t solely mean immersion, but washing as well. So, they weren’t literally immersing couches in water, but washing them. I know this user hasn’t been on here in a while, but wanted to address the post even when the poster no longer frequents the forum.

 

[Silverhair]

You have not proved that he did. According to all I have read, he left them behind when he became a Christian.

Have you read all of Augustine? Dr. Wilson did and he came to the conclusion that Augustine incorporated pagan views into his theology.

But Wilson is not the only one to say that.

You say he left those views behind when he became a Christian but we see those same pagan views in today's calvinism.

Calvin heavily relied on Augustine for his doctrinal views, often quoting him extensively in his writings, particularly in "Institutes of the Christian Religion." Augustine's teachings on grace, salvation, and predestination significantly influenced Calvin's theology, making Augustine a central figure in Calvin's understanding of Christian doctrine.

So if the pagan views did not come from Augustine then where did Calvin get them?

 

[Silverhair]

These religions are far more complicated than that. I studied Classics at University as an unconverted teenager and I did study something of Platonism, both in its earlier form in Greece and its later form in the Roman Empire. It is a fact that many (most?) of the early Church Fathers were converted out of Neoplatonism. Justin Martyr was one that you may have heard of; Aristides and Athenagoras (look them up!) were two more. Clement of Alexandria described the Christian as the "true Gnostic." I can probably dig out half a dozen others if you want.

The Stoics, as I recall, made a great thing of the human will. They taught that the human could only find true fulfilment by living in harmony with reason.

All Christians came out of some false views so saying Justin Martyr came out of a false religion is not a surprise.

But coming out of a false religion is not the problem it is that Augustine brought the false pagan views into the church and Calvin just carried them forward.

Clement of Alexandria may have described the Christian as the "true Gnostic." But he was not ascribing Gnostic philosophy to Christians.

Gnostic philosophy is a collection of religious and philosophical ideas that emphasize personal spiritual knowledge (gnosis) over traditional religious authority. It often involves the belief in a flawed creator god (the demiurge) and a higher, transcendent divine being, focusing on the idea that the material world is imperfect and that salvation comes through mystical insight.

Christians have the true knowledge of the means of salvation a clearer understanding of who God is.

From what you write I have to conclude that you are in agreement with the pagan views of the Stoics, Neoplatonists, Gnostics, & Manicheans.

 

[percho]

That’s quite a stretch to the meaning applied to βαπτισμός (baptismos). That word doesn’t solely mean immersion, but washing as well. So, they weren’t literally immersing couches in water, but washing them. I know this user hasn’t been on here in a while, but wanted to address the post even when the poster no longer frequents the forum.

I was going to post.

Luke 12:50 but I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how am I pressed till it may be completed!

In the reality is not the above baptism the baptism that saves us? Is not water baptism just a picture of we being baptized unto the death of Christ showing us to having been made righteous in Christ, with Christ having gone through the death [baptism]? [a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ;]

Consider;
Heb 2:14,15 Seeing, then, the children have partaken of flesh and blood, he himself also in like manner did take part of the same, that through [the] death he might destroy him having the power of death -- that is, the devil -- and might deliver those, whoever, with fear of death, throughout all their life, were subjects of bondage,

 

[SovereignGrace]

Come on guys, this thread is about baptism and not Augustine and what your thoughts about him are. Let's keep this thread from going off into rabbit trails.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Baptism Now Saves Us​

M McGeown
January 18, 2019
These three blog posts written by Rev. Martyn McGeown were originally posted on the Reformed Free Publishing Association's website. We place them together here for the benefit of the reader and because of the importance of the subject.

​

Peter connects salvation not to water baptism, but to the resurrection of Jesus Christ, and therefore also to the cross. There is no resurrection without the cross, for the resurrection of Jesus Christ is his bodily resurrection from the grave three days after his death.​

The Bible says,

21 ὃ καὶ ὑμᾶς ἀντίτυπον νῦν ⸃ σῴζει βάπτισμα, οὐ σαρκὸς ἀπόθεσις ῥύπου ἀλλὰ συνειδήσεως ἀγαθῆς ἐπερώτημα εἰς θεόν, δι’ ἀναστάσεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ,

1 Peter 3:21. And baptism, which this prefigured, now saves you—not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as a pledge to God from a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (NRSV, alternate translation found in a footnote)

We have here only one verb in the indicative mood and hence only one primary clause accompanied by subordinate clauses. That primary clause is “baptism now saves you.” Therefore, Peter connects salvation to water baptism!

Such a blatant perversion of the truth of the word of God as we have in the post under comment should make any God-fearing Christian sick in his stomach.

God, in His infinite wisdom, chose to bless me with a bright, healthy, and objective mind. Therefore, I was never seduced by the false teaching of Calvinism—teachings which are to me repugnant and repulsive.

 

[SovereignGrace]

The Bible says,

21 ὃ καὶ ὑμᾶς ἀντίτυπον νῦν ⸃ σῴζει βάπτισμα, οὐ σαρκὸς ἀπόθεσις ῥύπου ἀλλὰ συνειδήσεως ἀγαθῆς ἐπερώτημα εἰς θεόν, δι’ ἀναστάσεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ,

1 Peter 3:21. And baptism, which this prefigured, now saves you—not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as a pledge to God from a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (NRSV, alternate translation found in a footnote)

We have here only one verb in the indicative mood and hence only one primary clause accompanied by subordinate clauses. That primary clause is “baptism now saves you.” Therefore, Peter connects salvation to water baptism!

Such a blatant perversion of the truth of the word of God as we have in the post under comment should make any God-fearing Christian sick in his stomach.

God, in His infinite wisdom, chose to bless me with a bright, healthy, and objective mind. Therefore, I was never seduced by the false teaching of Calvinism—teachings which are to me repugnant and repulsive.

So, those who have never been baptized die lost?

 

[SovereignGrace]

The Bible says,

21 ὃ καὶ ὑμᾶς ἀντίτυπον νῦν ⸃ σῴζει βάπτισμα, οὐ σαρκὸς ἀπόθεσις ῥύπου ἀλλὰ συνειδήσεως ἀγαθῆς ἐπερώτημα εἰς θεόν, δι’ ἀναστάσεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ,

1 Peter 3:21. And baptism, which this prefigured, now saves you—not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as a pledge to God from a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (NRSV, alternate translation found in a footnote)

We have here only one verb in the indicative mood and hence only one primary clause accompanied by subordinate clauses. That primary clause is “baptism now saves you.” Therefore, Peter connects salvation to water baptism!

Such a blatant perversion of the truth of the word of God as we have in the post under comment should make any God-fearing Christian sick in his stomach.

God, in His infinite wisdom, chose to bless me with a bright, healthy, and objective mind. Therefore, I was never seduced by the false teaching of Calvinism—teachings which are to me repugnant and repulsive.

And this has zero to do with Calvinism my friend. Your side of this debate has an unhealthy obsession with it.

 

[SovereignGrace]

The Bible says,

21 ὃ καὶ ὑμᾶς ἀντίτυπον νῦν ⸃ σῴζει βάπτισμα, οὐ σαρκὸς ἀπόθεσις ῥύπου ἀλλὰ συνειδήσεως ἀγαθῆς ἐπερώτημα εἰς θεόν, δι’ ἀναστάσεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ,

1 Peter 3:21. And baptism, which this prefigured, now saves you—not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as a pledge to God from a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (NRSV, alternate translation found in a footnote)

We have here only one verb in the indicative mood and hence only one primary clause accompanied by subordinate clauses. That primary clause is “baptism now saves you.” Therefore, Peter connects salvation to water baptism!

Such a blatant perversion of the truth of the word of God as we have in the post under comment should make any God-fearing Christian sick in his stomach.

God, in His infinite wisdom, chose to bless me with a bright, healthy, and objective mind. Therefore, I was never seduced by the false teaching of Calvinism—teachings which are to me repugnant and repulsive.

From Adam Clarke's commentary, who was not a Calvinist:


Verse 21. The like figure whereunto, c.] Dr. Macknight has translated this verse so as to make the meaning more clear: By which (water) the antitype baptism (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience towards God) now saveth us also, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

He remarks that the relative ω being in the neuter gender, its antecedent cannot be κιβωτος, the ark, which is feminine, but υδωρ, water, which is neuter.

There are many difficulties in this verse but the simple meaning of the place may be easily apprehended. Noah believed in God; walked uprightly before him, and found grace in his sight; he obeyed him in building the ark, and God made it the means of his salvation from the waters of the deluge. Baptism implies a consecration and dedication of the soul and body to God, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. He who is faithful to his baptismal covenant, taking God through Christ, by the eternal Spirit, for his portion, is saved here from his sins; and through the resurrection of Christ from the dead, has the well-grounded hope of eternal glory. This is all plain; but was it the deluge, itself, or the ark, or the being saved by that ark from the deluge, that was the antitype of which St. Peter speaks? Noah and his family were saved by water; i.e. it was the instrument of their being saved through the good providence of God. So the water of baptism, typifying the regenerating influence of the Holy Spirit, is the means of salvation to all those who receive this Holy Spirit in its quickening, cleansing efficacy. Now as the waters of the flood could not have saved Noah and his family, had they not made use of the ark; so the water of baptism saves no man, but as it is the means of his getting his heart purified by the Holy Spirit, and typifying to him that purification. The ark was not immersed in the water; had it been so they must all have perished; but it was borne up on the water, and sprinkled with the rain that fell from heaven. This text, as far as I can see, says nothing in behalf of immersion in baptism; but is rather, from the circumstance mentioned above, in favour of sprinkling. In either case, it is not the sprinkling, washing, or cleansing the body, that can be of any avail to the salvation of the soul, but the answer of a good conscience towards God-the internal evidence and external proof that the soul is purified in the laver of regeneration, and the person enabled to walk in newness of life. We are therefore strongly cautioned here, not to rest in the letter, but to look for the substance.

1 Peter 3 - Clarke's Commentary - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

1 Peter 3, Clarke's Commentary, Clarke's Commentary offers Christians deep insights into the Scriptures through thorough examination of original texts and historical context.

www.studylight.org

 

[SovereignGrace]

The Bible says,

21 ὃ καὶ ὑμᾶς ἀντίτυπον νῦν ⸃ σῴζει βάπτισμα, οὐ σαρκὸς ἀπόθεσις ῥύπου ἀλλὰ συνειδήσεως ἀγαθῆς ἐπερώτημα εἰς θεόν, δι’ ἀναστάσεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ,

1 Peter 3:21. And baptism, which this prefigured, now saves you—not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as a pledge to God from a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (NRSV, alternate translation found in a footnote)

We have here only one verb in the indicative mood and hence only one primary clause accompanied by subordinate clauses. That primary clause is “baptism now saves you.” Therefore, Peter connects salvation to water baptism!

Such a blatant perversion of the truth of the word of God as we have in the post under comment should make any God-fearing Christian sick in his stomach.

God, in His infinite wisdom, chose to bless me with a bright, healthy, and objective mind. Therefore, I was never seduced by the false teaching of Calvinism—teachings which are to me repugnant and repulsive.

You just cut off the thief on Jesus' right side, as he was never baptized.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

From what you write I have to conclude that you are in agreement with the pagan views of the Stoics, Neoplatonists, Gnostics, & Manicheans.

You would not know a Stoic, Neoplatonist, Gnostic or Manichaean if one bit you on the leg. I think you probably would know a Pelagian though.
However, I am not going to mess up this thread any longer. If you want to pursue your show of ignorance any further, open a new thread.

I apologize to those who wish to discuss baptism. Please carry on.

 

[Silverhair]

You would not know a Stoic, Neoplatonist, Gnostic or Manichaean if one bit you on the leg. I think you probably would know a Pelagian though.
However, I am not going to mess up this thread any longer. If you want to pursue your show of ignorance any further, open a new thread.

I apologize to those who wish to discuss baptism. Please carry on.

So you will continue to run away from the fact that the religious view you hold , calvinism, has those pagan views as it's foundation.

Sad really, but some are content to just follow the pack as it feels safe.

“DISCERNMENT is not simply telling the difference between what is Right and Wrong;
rather, it is the difference between Right and Almost Right.” Charles Spurgeon

But we should let this thread return to the OP .

 

[Van]

Spiritual baptism into Christ saves us. Full stop!

Romans 6:3-7

When we were given to Christ, John 6:37, when we were transferred into Christ, Colossians 1:13, when we believed into Christ, and when we were called into Christ, 1 Corinthians 1:9, when we were baptized into Christ, they were all the same action by God, He put us into Christ, 1 Corinthians 1:30.

 

[Craigbythesea]

From Adam Clarke's commentary, who was not a Calvinist:


Verse 21. The like figure whereunto, c.] Dr. Macknight has translated this verse so as to make the meaning more clear: By which (water) the antitype baptism (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience towards God) now saveth us also, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

He remarks that the relative ω being in the neuter gender, its antecedent cannot be κιβωτος, the ark, which is feminine, but υδωρ, water, which is neuter.

1 Peter 3 - Clarke's Commentary - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

1 Peter 3, Clarke's Commentary, Clarke's Commentary offers Christians deep insights into the Scriptures through thorough examination of original texts and historical context.

www.studylight.org

In this part of your post you are not quoting from Adam Clarke but a quote in his commentary from James MacKnight (1721-1800), a minister in the Church of Scotland—a staunchly Reformed denomination that strictly adheres to the Westminster Confession of faith. That quote is from the following work by MacKnight,

MacKknight, James. A New Literal Translation of All the Apostolical Epistles; From the Original Greek; with A Commentary and Notes. London: Thomas Tegg, 1795. Four Volumes.

 

[SovereignGrace]

In this part of your post you are not quoting from Adam Clarke but a quote in his commentary from James MacKnight (1721-1800), a minister in the Church of Scotland—a staunchly Reformed denomination that strictly adheres to the Westminster Confession of faith. That quote is from the following work by MacKnight,

MacKknight, James. A New Literal Translation of All the Apostolical Epistles; From the Original Greek; with A Commentary and Notes. London: Thomas Tegg, 1795. Four Volumes.

I’m reformed and enjoy Clarke and have used his commentary to help formulate my sermon.

 

[SovereignGrace]

So, those who have never been baptized die lost?

@Craigbythesea

Care to answer this?

 

[kyredneck]

Come on guys, this thread is about baptism

<sigh> I've said this many times over the years, the focus should be on 'saved', and who the audience is:

Baptism was an act of repentance/profession. The only way for those Jews of 'that generation' to be delivered [saved] from the wrath to come and avoid bringing the curses/plagues of Lev 26/Dt 28 upon themselves and their progeny was to repent and profess Christ as LORD, and water baptism was an integral part of that profession.

But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said unto them, Ye offspring of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Mt 3:7

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned. Mk 16:16

40 And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation.
41 They then that received his word were baptized: and there were added unto them in that day about three thousand souls. Acts 2

And it shall be, that every soul that shall not hearken to that prophet, shall be utterly destroyed from among the people. Acts 3:23

the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water: which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ; 1 Pet 3:20,21

Evangelism has gommed up 'saved' by reading it only in the eternal sense. It's NOT 'saved' from hell, it's saved from the wrath to come, upon that very generation.

 

[kyredneck]

the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water: which also after a true likeness doth now save you, even baptism, not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the interrogation of a good conscience toward God, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ; 1 Pet 3:20,21

Peter was an apostle to the:

a) Inuit

b) circumcision

c) Babylonians

 

[kyredneck]

Unto what then were ye Baptized?

"II. BAPTIZED UNTO MOSES (1 Corinthians 10:12)
This bit of history of the Hebrews and of the Exodus gives us a clue as to the meaning of what it means to be baptized "unto" someone or some thing. The Hebrews had been living and working "unto" their Egyptian taskmasters. They labored at making bricks with a view to pleasing these masters and thus doing the bidding of Pharaoh. The Red Sea put a difference in their view of the One to be heeded. It had separated, or marked the death of, themselves to Egypt, and the Egyptians to them. Now they had a new leader, Moses. Their being baptized "unto Moses," then meant that no longer were they to heed the voices of the masters in Egypt, but the voice of a new Master (God) whose spokesman was Moses.

III. BAPTIZED INTO JESUS CHRIST (Romans 6:3)
We are taught that we are baptized into (same word: "unto") Jesus Christ. It is not a matter of location or place, so that baptism puts us literally into Christ. This is no more true than that "baptized unto Moses" put the Hebrews into Moses. It means that baptism (like the Red Sea crossing) drew a line between former masters and the the present leader or master. Baptism declares that we have died to the world. Being dead to it we cannot heed the voice of its god (Satan) or its leaders (taskmasters). We have a new Master (Christ), and are baptized "unto" Him. With a view to heeding Him and no other, we declare (show) our death to the world and our resurrection (new life) unto God. He is our new Master, and we heed the voice of Him Who is our Head, Christ."

 

[Craigbythesea]

I’m reformed and enjoy Clarke and have used his commentary to help formulate my sermon.

Clarke had a gift for recognizing truth wherever he found it. In his commentary on the Epistle to the Romans, he quotes at length (23 pages) Dr. John Taylor’s “A Key to the Apostolic Writings; or, an Essay to explain the Gospel Scheme, and the principle words and phrases which the apostles have used in describing it.” Clarke is perhaps best known today for his insightful comments on Romans 7:14-25, especially these words,

It is difficult to conceive how the opinion could have crept into the Church, or prevailed there, that “the apostle speaks here of his regenerate state; and that what was, in such a state, true of himself, must be true of all others in the same state.” This opinion has, most pitifully and most shamefully, not only lowered the standard of Christianity, but destroyed its influence and disgraced its character. It requires but little knowledge of the spirit of the Gospel, and of the scope of this epistle, to see that the apostle is, here, either personating a Jew under the law and without the Gospel, or showing what his own state was when he was deeply convinced that by the deeds of the law no man could be justified, and had not as yet heard those blessed words: Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way, hath sent me that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost, Act_9:17.

Thank you for sharing with us. May our Lord and savior Jesus Christ abundantly bless you and those who are dear to you.