Unbelief vs Belief ?

DaveXR650 · Sunday at 1:05 PM

Martin Marprelate said:
The Arminian firefighter turns up and finds that none of the prisoners want to escape. They think it's great there and don't believe the building is really burning!

I thought more along the lines of the Provisionist version using the above cartoon. "Long my imprisoned spirit lay, fast bound in sin and nature's night"
"Thou provided a firetruck and thus the way, and left it to me to somehow get out!"

Anthony Pritchard · Sunday at 1:18 PM

Martin Marprelate said:
I don't see this as showing any uncertainty by Spurgeon. He is using an illustration. If my memory serves, he likens the two lines to a railway track. The fact is that God's word teaches both the absolute sovereignty of God and man's responsibility (John 6:39-40; Matt. 11:25-30). That we may struggle to reconcile them with our own human reasoning should not surprise us (Isaiah 55:8-9; Romans 11:33-36) and it did not surprise Spurgeon or other Particular Baptists.
Spurgeon suffered in many ways, both physically and with depression. I have a book published by the Metropolitan Tabernacle called The Suffering Letters of C.H. Spurgeon. In those letters, he details his illnesses and how it is his firm grasp of theology, especially the sovereignty of God in all things that sustains him.

I appreciate your reply, but I think you are missing the point I was making. I am not denying that Spurgeon affirmed both divine sovereignty and human responsibility. I am saying that his metaphor of “two parallel lines that meet only in eternity” is itself an admission that his system, Calvinism, produces an imbalance, evident to himself as well, that he could not resolve on the level of doctrine.

You call it “just an illustration,” but illustrations are not neutral. They reveal how a man understands the thing he is illustrating. And Spurgeon’s illustration does not describe harmony; it describes irreconcilability, two lines that cannot be brought together “upon any human anvil.”

That is not how Scripture speaks.

Scripture never presents two contradictory doctrines that are reconciled at the Throne of God. It never speaks of two truths that only meet in eternity. It never describes the gospel as a set of parallel lines that defy doctrinal unity. That language comes from Spurgeon, not from the apostles.

You cite John 6 and Matthew 11. I agree with both passages wholeheartedly. But neither of them presents the gospel as a contradiction we must accept without understanding. They present one truth: God works upon the heart, and man genuinely responds. There is no “railway track” metaphor in the text, no parallel lines, no philosophical tension. That imagery arises only when a system demands it.

Spurgeon’s suffering, his depression, and his reliance on God’s sovereignty for comfort are not in dispute. I am not questioning his faith or his devotion. I am pointing out that his metaphor is a theological patch, an attempt to hold together two claims that his inherited system required but Scripture never describes.

If the Bible taught two lines that cannot meet until eternity, I would gladly affirm it. But it does not. That language exists only in Spurgeon’s writings, not in the Word of God, not in the early churches, and not in apostolic doctrine.

So my point remains: Spurgeon’s metaphor reveals a struggle within himself to reconcile Calvinism, not a struggle inside Scripture. Scripture never presents these doctrines as reconcilable, Calvinism does. And Spurgeon’s illustration shows how far even the Prince of Preachers was willing to reach to justify the unjustifiable tension his system created.

This is not a criticism of Spurgeon’s devotion or his suffering. It is simply an observation that the metaphor itself is a theological patch, a way of holding together two claims that Scripture never presents.

Ben1445 · Sunday at 10:14 PM

David Lamb said:
Have you ever heard or read somebody who believes the Doctrines of Grace (Calvinism, as you call it) saying anything resembling, "Look at me. I must be so special for God to have chosen me"? Can you quote anyone saying/writing such a thing? They are more likely to echo hymn words lke these:

Chosen not for good in me,
Waked from coming wrath to flee,
Hidden in the Saviour’s side,
By the Spirit sanctified--
Teach me, Lord, on earth to show,
By my love, how much I owe.

Or these:

My God has chosen me,
Though one of nought,
To sit beside my King
In heaven's court.
Hear what my Lord has done,
O the love that made Him run
To meet His erring son!
This has God wrought.

3 Not for my righteousness,
For I have none,
But for His mercy's sake,
Jesus, God's Son,
Suffered on Calvary's tree -
Crucified with thieves was He -
Great was His grace to me,
His wayward one!

Please pardon us for our concern for others.

I was taught freely ye have received, freely give.

Ben1445 · Sunday at 10:17 PM

Martin Marprelate said:
The Arminian firefighter turns up and finds that none of the prisoners want to escape. They think it's great there and don't believe the building is really burning!

This is reality, Arminian or not. It’s funny that you mention their own will, as if you think they have a choice.

They that are whole need not a physician.

It doesn’t mean that they don’t need Him. It means they don’t think they need Him so they don’t go to Him.

Ben1445 · Sunday at 10:21 PM

DaveXR650 said:
I thought more along the lines of the Provisionist version using the above cartoon. "Long my imprisoned spirit lay, fast bound in sin and nature's night"
"Thou provided a firetruck and thus the way, and left it to me to somehow get out!"

That doesn’t represent the provisionist position. The somehow has already been provided. The only thing left to do is yield. Yielding would mean not doing what you think is the best thing and following the instructions of the Saviour.

Silverhair · Monday at 12:30 AM

David Lamb said:
I didn't say anything about me being a Jew. I am English. And I keep telling you that you are wrong. Calvinists do not think they were so special that God picked them out of all those other sinners to be saved. If that were true, they would be boasting. Paul, in reminding Christians that they had been saved by God's grace, says:

(Eph 2:8-10 NKJV) For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Since you referred to God picking out Israel and you think God picked you out I thought it was a reasonable question.

And I keep pointing out to you what calvinism teaches. Your the ones that claim you were chosen before creation, your the ones that say you have to be given faith after you are saved.

I quoted two of your main calvinists and you still say I have it wrong. Perhaps it is you that is just ignoring the realities of the philosophy that you follow.

David the boasting we see in calvinism is in the things they say and claim for themselves.

Why did you not answer the questions I asked you David?

Do you think God picked you out prior to creation?

Do you agree with limited atonement?

Do you believe in unconditional election?

Do you agree with these two calvinists or not.
“A cardinal point of Reformed theology is the maxim: ‘Regeneration precedes faith.’ [R.C. Sproul Chosen By God, pp.72-73].
“A man is not saved because he believes in Christ; he believes in Christ because he is saved”. [L. Boettner The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination, Page 75]

The God given order is believe first then God saves, as we see clearly in the following verses.
Eph 1:13 And in Him, having heard and believed the word of truth—the gospel of your salvation—you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Rom 10:13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

By the way, the reason a person cannot boast is because they were saved by the grace of God once they have believed in His risen Son.

Which as I have shown you is the opposite of what calvinism teaches.

Silverhair · Monday at 12:41 AM

Martin Marprelate said:
May I refer you to Bambi and the wise words of Thumper's mother: "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all" (c.f. Job 13:5).

Would you rather that I go along with the error of calvinism or point you to the truth of scripture?

I have shown many times that the basis of calvinism is pagan philosophy brought into the church by Augustine. You ignore the historical facts and cling to your man made philosophy. Why is that?

You know what they say. The truth will set you free.

I have offered you truth now all you have to do is accept it.

David Lamb · Monday at 1:11 AM

Ben1445 said:
Please pardon us for our concern for others.

I was taught freely ye have received, freely give.

I was taught that, too, and I am sorry if you took anything I have written as suggesting that I have no concern for others, If, by careless wording, I gave you that impression, I humbly apologise.

David Lamb · Monday at 1:32 AM

Silverhair said:
Since you referred to God picking out Israel and you think God picked you out I thought it was a reasonable question.

And I keep pointing out to you what calvinism teaches. Your the ones that claim you were chosen before creation, your the ones that say you have to be given faith after you are saved.

I quoted two of your main calvinists and you still say I have it wrong. Perhaps it is you that is just ignoring the realities of the philosophy that you follow.

David the boasting we see in calvinism is in the things they say and claim for themselves.

Why did you not answer the questions I asked you David?

Do you think God picked you out prior to creation?

Do you agree with limited atonement?

Do you believe in unconditional election?

Do you agree with these two calvinists or not.
“A cardinal point of Reformed theology is the maxim: ‘Regeneration precedes faith.’ [R.C. Sproul Chosen By God, pp.72-73].
“A man is not saved because he believes in Christ; he believes in Christ because he is saved”. [L. Boettner The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination, Page 75]

The God given order is believe first then God saves, as we see clearly in the following verses.
Eph 1:13 And in Him, having heard and believed the word of truth—the gospel of your salvation—you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Rom 10:13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

By the way, the reason a person cannot boast is because they were saved by the grace of God once they have believed in His risen Son.

Which as I have shown you is the opposite of what calvinism teaches.

To answer your questions that II somehow neglected to answer before (sorry about that): Yes I do believe that God chose whome He would save before Creation. Paul wrote:

(Eph 1:3-4 NKJV) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

Yes, I believe in what the acronym calls "Limited Atonement". Surely we all do, except for universalists, for we believe that it is those who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ who are saved (unless, of course, you say that Christ atoned for unsaved people too).

Yes, believe n unconditional election. How could anybody fulfil any conditions for election? It took place "before the foundation of the world."

Now for your point about regeneration/new birth coming before belief. As Paul say that unsaved sinners are dead in trespasses and sins, they need new life in order to have faith. However, that doesn't mean, nor do Calvinists believe, that a sinner can be granted newness of life, then weeks, months or years later, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Martin Marprelate · Monday at 4:04 AM

Ben1445 said:
This is reality, Arminian or not. It’s funny that you mention their own will, as if you think they have a choice.

They that are whole need not a physician.

It doesn’t mean that they don’t need Him. It means they don’t think they need Him so they don’t go to Him.

I do think they have a choice. I have repeatedly said so, as have generations of Calvinists. It really would be helpful if you stopped reading caricatures of what Calvinists believe and listened to what they actually believe.
Imagine yourself walking through the woods and suddenly coming across a cage with a lining of befouled, rotting straw. The stench is horrible. In the cage is a man dressed in filthy moth-eaten rags.
You first thought is to release the man, but as you approach, you hear him talking to himself. "Oh, it's great in here! This is really living! I'm so lucky to be here!" The cage isn't actually locked, but you realise that just to open the cage will not help; the man won't leave of his own accord. He's happy there. He needs to come to a proper understanding of his situation.

That is how it is for most unsaved people. When I was witnessing recently at a big acricultural show in my area, I would offer a New Testament to folk walking by. Many of them would just wave me away, saying, "No thanks, I'm fine!" I always want to run after them and shout at them: "You're not fine! You're dead in trespasses and sins, and you're on your way to hell!" But it needs the Lord to open their hearts to see their situation.

The good news is that we gave away about 750 N.T.s and dozens of tracts and other literature. May God open the eyes of those that took the literature to read it and find the Saviour

Ben1445 · Monday at 5:23 AM

Martin Marprelate said:
I do think they have a choice. I have repeatedly said so, as have generations of Calvinists. It really would be helpful if you stopped reading caricatures of what Calvinists believe and listened to what they actually believe.
Imagine yourself walking through the woods and suddenly coming across a cage with a lining of befouled, rotting straw. The stench is horrible. In the cage is a man dressed in filthy moth-eaten rags.
You first thought is to release the man, but as you approach, you hear him talking to himself. "Oh, it's great in here! This is really living! I'm so lucky to be here!" The cage isn't actually locked, but you realise that just to open the cage will not help; the man won't leave of his own accord. He's happy there. He needs to come to a proper understanding of his situation.

That is how it is for most unsaved people. When I was witnessing recently at a big acricultural show in my area, I would offer a New Testament to folk walking by. Many of them would just wave me away, saying, "No thanks, I'm fine!" I always want to run after them and shout at them: "You're not fine! You're dead in trespasses and sins, and you're on your way to hell!" But it needs the Lord to open their hearts to see their situation.

The good news is that we gave away about 750 N.T.s and dozens of tracts and other literature. May God open the eyes of those that took the literature to read it and find the Saviour

but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord;

As I read what Paul said in 2 Cor. 4, it says that if we hide the gospel it is hidden to the lost. But by preaching it, they have the light of the gospel that shines brightly enough for any to see but that they have been blinded.
What Paul is saying is that preaching of the word of the gospel is what overcomes the blindness.

DaveXR650 · Monday at 8:33 AM

Ben1445 said:
That doesn’t represent the provisionist position. The somehow has already been provided. The only thing left to do is yield. Yielding would mean not doing what you think is the best thing and following the instructions of the Saviour.

Ben. I forgot to mention. In the glove compartment of the firetruck is a complete owner's manual.

Martin Marprelate said:
You first thought is to release the man, but as you approach, you hear him talking to himself. "Oh, it's great in here! This is really living! I'm so lucky to be here!" The cage isn't actually locked, but you realise that just to open the cage will not help; the man won't leave of his own accord. He's happy there. He needs to come to a proper understanding of his situation.

Seriously though, Martin's illustration is the best I have heard on what the true situation really is. And the cage isn't locked except by the man's own will which has him convinced he's doing fine. His wonderful free will is actually the problem. And in truth I don't go so far either as to say regeneration precedes faith, but I do say that there is a work of the Spirit, and enlightening or awakening, of just the "seeing" of your true situation, that is essential and prior to anything you do, if you are to get out of that cage.

In my poor attempt at humor I was quoting a line from Wesley's "And Can it Be" where he says "Long my imprisoned spirit lay, fast bound by sin and nature's night. Thine eye diffused a quickening ray, I woke, the dungeon flamed in light. My chains fell off, my heart was free. I rose, went forth and followed thee." Here you have a true non-Calvinist writing about a "quickening ray", which is actually probably more than enlightening. Quickening is usually related to life-giving, so maybe Wesley believed regeneration preceded faith after all, or at least nearly the same time.

Ben1445 · Monday at 3:51 PM

DaveXR650 said:
Ben. I forgot to mention. In the glove compartment of the firetruck is a complete owner's manual.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.
What better Owner’s manual than the Bible written by the Manufacturer and Owner and written to the steward?

Ben1445 · Monday at 3:54 PM

DaveXR650 said:
…regeneration preceded faith after all, or at least nearly the same time.

It is not reasonable nor accurate to assume that they happen at different times.
If you are alive and regenerated, you cannot be unsaved and dead in sin.

Silverhair · Monday at 4:48 PM

David Lamb said:
To answer your questions that II somehow neglected to answer before (sorry about that): Yes I do believe that God chose whome He would save before Creation.

First, I want to thank you for answering the questions.

According to your view you must also agree that God condemned the vast majority of humanity before creation. But that view calls the justice and honesty of God into question. Are you saying God lied when He said He "desires all men to be saved" [1Ti 2:4]

Are you saying that the Jesus got it wrong when He said Joh 12:32 "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw everyone to Myself.” Or do you think "EVERYONE" really means some?

Jesus Christ is the "Elect one" [Isa_42:1] and we are only one of the elect when He is in us through faith [Col 1:27] in other words saved. Are you suggesting that you were saved prior to creation? That sounds a bit arrogant to me.

David Lamb said:
Yes, I believe in what the acronym calls "Limited Atonement".

The atonement that Christ Jesus provided is real and true for all people not just the calvinist few. Christ died for the world of sinners. The bible is quite clear on this, 1Jn_2:2 ...propitiation for the whole world, 1Ti 2:6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all..., Rom 5:6 ... Christ died for the ungodly.

The atonement saved no one but it made salvation possible for everyone.

Jesus Christ was the "atoning sacrifice for our sins" 1Jn_2:2 and by that sacrifice "when we were enemies of God, we were reconciled to Him through the death of His Son" Rom_5:10. But the Atonement/Reconciliation saved no one. We have to trust in the risen Christ or we are still lost. "how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through His life!" Rom_5:10

David Lamb said:
Yes, believe n unconditional election. How could anybody fulfil any conditions for election? It took place "before the foundation of the world."

So you think you were saved prior to creation. The bible disagrees with you, so you have to decide whether you will trust the word of God or the false teachings of man.

The bible points to the condition of salvation in a number of places.
Joh 3:16 "...that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe ... you will be saved.

Rom 10:13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Eph 1:13 And in Him, having heard and believed the word of truth...

Heb_11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.

Your errors just keep mounting up David.

David Lamb said:
Now for your point about regeneration/new birth coming before belief. As Paul say that unsaved sinners are dead in trespasses and sins, they need new life in order to have faith.

Being spiritually dead does not mean unable to respond to the drawing of God.

Jesus makes it clear that the time when the [spiritually] dead will hear the voice of the Son of God unto life is “now.”
How does this happen? It happens through faith in Christ, "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears G191 (G5723) My word and believes G4100 (G5723) in Him who sent Me has G2192 (G5719) everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. (Joh_5:24, NKJV, emphasis mine)
These are three present [simple statements of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time] active [the subject as the doer or performer of the action] verbals.
Here Jesus plainly describes the initial movement from spiritual death to spiritual life. The one who hears the words of Jesus in faith (just hearing is not enough, they must also believe/trust) passes from spiritual death to spiritual life. Faith in Jesus Christ clearly marks the transition from death to life and that is a perfect description of what constitutes regeneration. Regeneration {being born again} is the beginning of spiritual life, and is thereby marked by the initial transition from death to life.

Calvinism has a person saved prior to them ever trusting in Christ Jesus. In actual fact calvinism has rendered Christ unnecessary as the absolutely elect must have been saved without him; and the non-elect cannot be saved by him.

Silverhair · Monday at 4:54 PM

Ben1445 said:
It is not reasonable nor accurate to assume that they happen at different times.
If you are alive and regenerated, you cannot be unsaved and dead in sin.

The order is important, you believe and then you are regenerated/saved/born again.

Act 16:30 ... “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
Act 16:31 ...“Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved,...”

The calvinist have you saved before you believe.

David Lamb · Tuesday at 2:49 AM

Silverhair said:
First, I want to thank you for answering the questions.

According to your view you must also agree that God condemned the vast majority of humanity before creation. But that view calls the justice and honesty of God into question. Are you saying God lied when He said He "desires all men to be saved" [1Ti 2:4]

God condemns sin. All without exception (apart from Jesus of course!) are sinners. All are condemned by God to start with. Of course God doesn't lie. But God does whatever He pleases:

(Isa 46:9-11 NKJV) Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,' Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it.

So 1 Timothy 2:4 cannot mean that God is (as it were) wringing His hands and saying, "Oh, how I wish that every person without exception would be saved, but they are not!"

Jesus sad that nobody can come to Him unless the Father draws them, and also:

(Joh 6:37 NKJV) All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

Silverhair said:
Are you saying that the Jesus got it wrong when He said Joh 12:32 "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw everyone to Myself.” Or do you think "EVERYONE" really means some?

So if He meant "every person without exception," why doesn't everybody come to Jesus? Why did Jesus say to some of His hearers, "You are not of My sheep?"

Silverhair said:
Jesus Christ is the "Elect one" [Isa_42:1] and we are only one of the elect when He is in us through faith [Col 1:27] in other words saved. Are you suggesting that you were saved prior to creation? That sounds a bit arrogant to me.

I am not suggesting it. Scripture tells us:

(Eph 1:3-6 NKJV) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

Silverhair said:
The atonement that Christ Jesus provided is real and true for all people not just the calvinist few. Christ died for the world of sinners. The bible is quite clear on this, 1Jn_2:2 ...propitiation for the whole world, 1Ti 2:6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all..., Rom 5:6 ... Christ died for the ungodly.

There you go again. Where did your idea that Calvinists believe only a few will be saved come from? He lay down His life for His sheep, and of them there are a multitude which no man can number.

Silverhair said:
The atonement saved no one but it made salvation possible for everyone.

So the angel, according to you, should have told Joseph, "You shall call His name Jesus because He will make salvation a possibility for His people." And how could He "see the travail of His soul and be satisfied" if that travail was n vain for some for whom He died?

Silverhair said:
Jesus Christ was the "atoning sacrifice for our sins" 1Jn_2:2 and by that sacrifice "when we were enemies of God, we were reconciled to Him through the death of His Son" Rom_5:10. But the Atonement/Reconciliation saved no one. We have to trust in the risen Christ or we are still lost. "how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through His life!" Rom_5:10

That makes a nonsense of atonement. How can a sinner be reconciled to God and not be saved? Nowhere in the New Testament do we read the word "reconciled" applied to people who remained in their sins and unbelief.

Silverhair said:
So you think you were saved prior to creation. The bible disagrees with you, so you have to decide whether you will trust the word of God or the false teachings of man.

I was saved when by God's grace I believed on the Lord Jesus Christ. God's election took place before Creation. This is clear from Ephesians, where n Chapter 1 we read that believers are chosen before the foundation of the world, and in Chapter 2 that sinners dead in trespasses and sins are raised up by God, and saved by His grace. Did I word a post so carelessly that you thought I was saved before Creation? f so, humbly apologise.

Silverhair said:
The bible points to the condition of salvation in a number of places.
Joh 3:16 "...that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe ... you will be saved.

Rom 10:13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Eph 1:13 And in Him, having heard and believed the word of truth...

Heb_11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.

Your errors just keep mounting up David.

But believe that sinners must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved.

Silverhair said:
Being spiritually dead does not mean unable to respond to the drawing of God.

How can somebody spiritually dead do something spiritual like responding to the drawing of God?

Silverhair said:
Jesus makes it clear that the time when the [spiritually] dead will hear the voice of the Son of God unto life is “now.”

Yes, like the physically dead Lazarus was raised at the voice of Jesus. Lazarus wasn't given a choice. Jesus raised him. The same with the spiritually dead:

(Eph 2:4-6 NKJV) But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Silverhair said:
How does this happen? It happens through faith in Christ, "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears G191 (G5723) My word and believes G4100 (G5723) in Him who sent Me has G2192 (G5719) everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. (Joh_5:24, NKJV, emphasis mine)
These are three present [simple statements of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time] active [the subject as the doer or performer of the action] verbals.
Here Jesus plainly describes the initial movement from spiritual death to spiritual life. The one who hears the words of Jesus in faith (just hearing is not enough, they must also believe/trust) passes from spiritual death to spiritual life. Faith in Jesus Christ clearly marks the transition from death to life and that is a perfect description of what constitutes regeneration. Regeneration {being born again} is the beginning of spiritual life, and is thereby marked by the initial transition from death to life.

Calvinism has a person saved prior to them ever trusting in Christ Jesus. In actual fact calvinism has rendered Christ unnecessary as the absolutely elect must have been saved without him; and the non-elect cannot be saved by him.

That just isn't true. We need new life to believe, and everybody who has been given new life does believe. Jesus spoke of being born again. Can anybody give birth to themselves? Of course not!

Silverhair · Tuesday at 4:12 PM

David Lamb said:
God condemns sin. All without exception (apart from Jesus of course!) are sinners. All are condemned by God to start with. Of course God doesn't lie. But God does whatever He pleases:

I agree God does not lie but your calvinism makes God seem to lie. Calvinism says only those preselected can come to Him but the bible says all can come to Him and are judged for not doing so.

And yes God can do as He pleases and that is why, as we see in scripture, I say that God has given man a limited free will with which man can respond to the various means God uses to draw them to Himself.

God desires that all be saved [1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved] but He does not force anyone to be saved, that view comes from calvinism. So, no, God is not wringing His hands as cavinists like to say.

David Lamb said:
So if He meant "every person without exception," why doesn't everybody come to Jesus? Why did Jesus say to some of His hearers, "You are not of My sheep?"

Are you confused by what Christ said [Joh 12:32 "And I, ...will draw all men to Myself."] It seems you are confusing draw with drag. The offer of salvation is for all people but they have to respond in faith. It is the calvinists that say God forces people to come to Him by Irresistible Grace even those that do not believe as according to calvinism salvation is Unconditional.

They were not His sheep because they had not believed in Him.

Context would clear up the error in your thinking. Jesus was speaking to Jews that questioned who He was.
Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me.
Joh 10:26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.

If the Jews had believed the works that Christ had done then they would have become one of His sheep.
Joh 10:37 "If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;
Joh 10:38 but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father."

David Lamb said:
I am not suggesting it. Scripture tells us:

So if calvinists were saved prior to creation and only they will be saved why the cross, why the gospel message. Your philosophy has just turned the whole bible on it's head.

For the calvinists must have been saved without him; and the non -calvinists cannot be saved by him

David Lamb said:
There you go again. Where did your idea that Calvinists believe only a few will be saved come from? He lay down His life for His sheep, and of them there are a multitude which no man can number.

How many calvinists have existed in comparison to the total number of people that have lived?

Calvinists say only those picked out prior to creation. Only those that are included in the Unconditional Election will partake of the Limited Atonement and will be drawn to God by His Irresistible Grace. So all men do not have an equal chance to know or trust in God. Your own philosophy precludes this.
So your philosophy is the one that removes the cross, the gospel message, evangelism, missionaries etc. God according to your theology has already picked out all those and only those who are saved.

So when you refer to the great multitude which no man can number Rev 7:9, Rev 19:1, Rev 19:6 you show that the calvinist view is wrong.

Calvinism composes about 7% of the Protestant denominations. However, when considering all of the 2.6 billion people who identify as Christian, Calvinists make up approximately “2.7%, or 1 out of every 37 Christians in the world.” Just How Prevalent Is Calvinism?

David Lamb said:
That makes a nonsense of atonement. How can a sinner be reconciled to God and not be saved? Nowhere in the New Testament do we read the word "reconciled" applied to people who remained in their sins and unbelief.

So your saying that the word of God is nonsense? The bible is clear enough if you will just trust it.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies of God, we were reconciled to Him through the death of His Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through His life!

The atonement does not save anyone but it make salvation available to all. While Christ's death made salvation possible as Paul said in 1Co_15:16-17 "For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!"

Calvinist's have conflated atonement and salvation. That is why you say people are saved and then given faith to believe.

David Lamb said:
I was saved when by God's grace I believed on the Lord Jesus Christ. God's election took place before Creation. This is clear from Ephesians, where n Chapter 1 we read that believers are chosen before the foundation of the world, and in Chapter 2 that sinners dead in trespasses and sins are raised up by God, and saved by His grace. Did I word a post so carelessly that you thought I was saved before Creation? f so, humbly apologise.

The only "Elect one" is Christ Jesus and you are only elect when you are in Christ through faith.

Paul is writing to believers not unbelievers.
God's choice should not be understood in the Islamic sense of determinism nor in the Calvinistic sense of "God chooses some versus God did not choose others," but in a covenantal sense. God promised to redeem fallen mankind [Gen_3:15]
God calls all in Christ [Joh_3:16; 1Ti_2:4; 2Pe_3:9; 1Jn_2:2; 1Jn_4:14] Utley

David Lamb said:
But believe that sinners must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved.

Since we are all sinners then that is the only ones that can choose to believe on Christ Jesus.

The condition of salvation is trusting in the risen Son but calvinism says there is no condition.

Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, ...

Rom 10:13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Rom 10:9 that if you confess ... “Jesus is Lord,” and believe ... God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

David Lamb said:
How can somebody spiritually dead do something spiritual like responding to the drawing of God?

Calvinism say the spiritually dead cannot seek God, the bible disagrees
Isa 55:6 Seek the LORD while He may be found; call on Him while He is near.
Isa 55:7 Let the wicked man forsake his own way and the unrighteous man his own thoughts; let him return to the LORD, that He may have compassion, and to our God, for He will freely pardon.

Jas 4:8 Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded

David Lamb said:
Yes, like the physically dead Lazarus was raised at the voice of Jesus. Lazarus wasn't given a choice. Jesus raised him. The same with the spiritually dead:

You are trying to conflate physical dead with spiritual death. The physically dead can do nothing, they cannot sin or repent. The spiritually dead can do both and we see in scripture that they in fact do so.

As you rightly pointed out we do not save ourselves but we are saved by the grace of God through faith [Eph 2:8]

David Lamb said:
That just isn't true. We need new life to believe, and everybody who has been given new life does believe. Jesus spoke of being born again. Can anybody give birth to themselves? Of course not!

So you just give your opinion and ignore scripture because it shows that your view is wrong.

Show me where Christ got it wrong. Christ says it is by hearing and believing you say it is not. You say they have to be saved before they can believe.

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears G191 (G5723) My word and believes G4100 (G5723) in Him who sent Me has G2192 (G5719) everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. [Joh_5:24, NKJV]

David Lamb · Wednesday at 3:21 AM

Silverhair said:
I agree God does not lie but your calvinism makes God seem to lie. Calvinism says only those preselected can come to Him but the bible says all can come to Him and are judged for not doing so.

And yes God can do as He pleases and that is why, as we see in scripture, I say that God has given man a limited free will with which man can respond to the various means God uses to draw them to Himself.

God desires that all be saved [1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved] but He does not force anyone to be saved, that view comes from calvinism. So, no, God is not wringing His hands as cavinists like to say.

God forcing people to be saved is not a Calvinist belief, nor do Calvinists like to say that God is wringing His hands.

Silverhair said:
Are you confused by what Christ said [Joh 12:32 "And I, ...will draw all men to Myself."] It seems you are confusing draw with drag. The offer of salvation is for all people but they have to respond in faith. It is the calvinists that say God forces people to come to Him by Irresistible Grace even those that do not believe as according to calvinism salvation is Unconditional.

They were not His sheep because they had not believed in Him.

No, that is the wrong way round. Jesus said;

(Joh 10:26 NKJV) But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.

Not, "You are not of My sheep because you do not believe."

Silverhair said:
Context would clear up the error in your thinking. Jesus was speaking to Jews that questioned who He was.
Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me.
Joh 10:26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.

If the Jews had believed the works that Christ had done then they would have become one of His sheep.
Joh 10:37 "If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;
Joh 10:38 but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father."

(see above - they did not believe because they were not of His sheep. You have turned His words around.

Silverhair said:
So if calvinists were saved prior to creation and only they will be saved why the cross, why the gospel message. Your philosophy has just turned the whole bible on it's head.

I have told that Calvinists do not believe they were saved before Creation.. God's election was before Creation. Being saved happens when a sinner believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, because of Christ's completed work on the cross.

Silverhair said:
For the calvinists must have been saved without him; and the non -calvinists cannot be saved by him

That s just untrue. Calvinists too believe salvation is all of Christ.

Silverhair said:
How many calvinists have existed in comparison to the total number of people that have lived?

No idea!

Silverhair said:
Calvinists say only those picked out prior to creation. Only those that are included in the Unconditional Election will partake of the Limited Atonement and will be drawn to God by His Irresistible Grace. So all men do not have an equal chance to know or trust in God. Your own philosophy precludes this.
So your philosophy is the one that removes the cross, the gospel message, evangelism, missionaries etc. God according to your theology has already picked out all those and only those who are saved.

So when you refer to the great multitude which no man can number Rev 7:9, Rev 19:1, Rev 19:6 you show that the calvinist view is wrong.

Nonsense. God has not given us an exact number of those He "chose before the foundation of the world."

Silverhair said:
Calvinism composes about 7% of the Protestant denominations. However, when considering all of the 2.6 billion people who identify as Christian, Calvinists make up approximately “2.7%, or 1 out of every 37 Christians in the world.” Just How Prevalent Is Calvinism?

Do you imagine that Calvinists believe that only they are saved? They don't.

Silverhair said:
So your saying that the word of God is nonsense? The bible is clear enough if you will just trust it.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies of God, we were reconciled to Him through the death of His Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through His life!

I fully agree with Romans 5:10

Silverhair said:
The atonement does not save anyone but it make salvation available to all. While Christ's death made salvation possible as Paul said in 1Co_15:16-17 "For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!"

Jesus and His atoning work actually saves people.

(Mat 1:21) And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins."

Silverhair said:
Calvinist's have conflated atonement and salvation. That is why you say people are saved and then given faith to believe.

The only "Elect one" is Christ Jesus and you are only elect when you are in Christ through faith.

Paul is writing to believers not unbelievers.
God's choice should not be understood in the Islamic sense of determinism nor in the Calvinistic sense of "God chooses some versus God did not choose others," but in a covenantal sense. God promised to redeem fallen mankind [Gen_3:15]
God calls all in Christ [Joh_3:16; 1Ti_2:4; 2Pe_3:9; 1Jn_2:2; 1Jn_4:14] Utley

Since we are all sinners then that is the only ones that can choose to believe on Christ Jesus.

The condition of salvation is trusting in the risen Son but calvinism says there is no condition.

Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, ...

Rom 10:13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Rom 10:9 that if you confess ... “Jesus is Lord,” and believe ... God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Another of your false ideas about what Calvinists believe. They certainly do not believe that anybody can be saved unless they believe in Jesus.

Silverhair said:
Calvinism say the spiritually dead cannot seek God, the bible disagrees
Isa 55:6 Seek the LORD while He may be found; call on Him while He is near.
Isa 55:7 Let the wicked man forsake his own way and the unrighteous man his own thoughts; let him return to the LORD, that He may have compassion, and to our God, for He will freely pardon.

Jas 4:8 Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded

You are trying to conflate physical dead with spiritual death. The physically dead can do nothing, they cannot sin or repent. The spiritually dead can do both and we see in scripture that they in fact do so.

As you rightly pointed out we do not save ourselves but we are saved by the grace of God through faith [Eph 2:8]

Exactly, by the grace of God.

Silverhair said:
So you just give your opinion and ignore scripture because it shows that your view is wrong.

I do not ignore scripture.

Silverhair said:
Show me where Christ got it wrong. Christ says it is by hearing and believing you say it is not. You say they have to be saved before they can believe.

No, I say one must be born again/given new life to believe.

Silverhair said:
"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears G191 (G5723) My word and believes G4100 (G5723) in Him who sent Me has G2192 (G5719) everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. [Joh_5:24, NKJV]

I believe that verse too.

Silverhair · Wednesday at 9:16 AM

David Lamb said:
God forcing people to be saved is not a Calvinist belief, nor do Calvinists like to say that God is wringing His hands.

What do you think Irresistible Grace means? You just used used those words, God is wringing His hands, in your privios post. And I have seen many calvinists use the same expression.

David Lamb said:
No, that is the wrong way round. Jesus said;

(Joh 10:26 NKJV) But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.

Not, "You are not of My sheep because you do not believe."

Pulling one verse out of context, as you have done, is a sure way to lead to error.

Context will clear up that confusuion
Joh 10:25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me.
Joh 10:26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.

Joh 10:37 "If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;
Joh 10:38 but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand...

If they had believed then that would have been His sheep. You are puttting the cart before the horse. You want people saved prior to them believing.

David Lamb said:
(see above - they did not believe because they were not of His sheep. You have turned His words around.

[see above- context will clear up your confusion]

David Lamb said:
I have told that Calvinists do not believe they were saved before Creation.. God's election was before Creation. Being saved happens when a sinner believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, because of Christ's completed work on the cross.

As we see in scripture [Isa_42:1] Christ is the Elect One. Again just read ing verse in context will clear up the confusion you have.

When you place the emphasis on "chosen before the foundation of the world" you fail to understand that if we are already in Christ from the foundation of the world, then we were never "in Adam" and never needed salvation.

We are chosen because we are “IN CHRIST” the Chosen one of God.
Eph_1:4 does not say that He chose us “to be in Him”.
It says He chose us “in Him”.
When we believe and put our faith and trust in Christ, we are in put “in Him.”
Eph_1:4-5 teaches HOW we come to be saved and become a part of the family of God and are adopted as son.
It does not teach WHO will be a part of this family.

David Lamb said:
That s just untrue. Calvinists too believe salvation is all of Christ.

Then why do you say you were in Christ prior to creation? If one is in Christ they are saved.

Remember your the ones that claim only those chosen prior to creation are saved.

Your on philosophy betrays you.

David Lamb said:
No idea!

But they cannot be the great multitude which no one could count that we see in Rev 7:9. The bible again shows the error of the calcinist philosophy.

David Lamb said:
Nonsense. God has not given us an exact number of those He "chose before the foundation of the world."

God told us How we can be saved not Who would be saved.

Calvinist claim they were picked out prior to creation. Since calvinists, who are the only ones who claim they were pre chosen, make up just a small percentage of Christians then where do you get the multitude which no man can number Rev 7:9, Rev 19:1, Rev 19:6.

The word of God again shows the error of calvinism.

You have taken the truth of God's word and turned it on it's head.

David Lamb said:
Do you imagine that Calvinists believe that only they are saved? They don't.

You say only those picked out prior top creation will be saved even though the bible does not say that. Look at your DoG/TULIP your claim re Eph 1:4. The vast majority of humanity does not fit into your philosophy thus are excluded from the possibility of salvation.

So your saying there is more than one way to be saved. The calvinist way and the biblical way.

David Lamb said:
I fully agree with Romans 5:10

Then you are denying calvinism.

David Lamb said:
esus and His atoning work actually saves people.

(Mat 1:21) And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins.

David you seem to be confused. You say you agree with Rom 5:10 then say the atonement saves. Which is it?

David Lamb said:
Another of your false ideas about what Calvinists believe. They certainly do not believe that anybody can be saved unless they believe in Jesus.

You just said the atonement saves "Jesus and His atoning work actually saves people."

And then said you agree with Rom 5:10 ...we shall be saved by His life.

You seem a bit confused.

Christ's death, atonement, saved no one but it made salvation possible for all for all that would trust in the risen Christ.

1Co 15:17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.

David Lamb said:
Exactly, by the grace of God.

I agree that we are saved by the grace of God Eph 2:8 "For it is by grace you have been saved through faith,..."

But calvinism says man cannot seek God and you just ignore scripture that shows your view is wrong. Avoiding the truth does not make it go away.

The bible clearly shows the error of calvinism and you just ignore the verses that show this so you can hold to that false teaching. Why is that David?

Calvinism say the spiritually dead cannot seek God, the bible disagrees
Isa 55:6 Seek the LORD while He may be found; call on Him while He is near.
Isa 55:7 Let the wicked man forsake his own way and the unrighteous man his own thoughts; let him return to the LORD, that He may have compassion, and to our God, for He will freely pardon.

David Lamb said:
I do not ignore scripture.

You say you do not ignore scripture but you have done that through our whole interaction. I have contrasted calvinism with scripture and you just hold to your calvinism but offer not scripture that supports your view.

David Lamb said:
No, I say one must be born again/given new life to believe.

My question for you is if you are already "born again/saved" why do you need faith?

The philosophy you follow has you saved prior to creation, born again/saved so you then can believe. What you hold to is not biblical but rather it is a man-made philosophy.

Christ says it is by hearing and believing you say it is not. You say they have to be saved/born again before they can believe.

It seems you would rather believe Calvin that Christ.

David Lamb said:
I believe that verse too.

You say you believe John 5:24 but you just said "one must be born again/given new life to believe."

It cannot be both David. You either believe Christ or Calvin.

Unbelief vs Belief ?

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