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Just Wondering? Do you think Catholic Priests Are Saved?

A

Armchair Apologist

Well-Known Member
canadyjd said:
Let me add there can be no edification or conservation when you question the salvation of those you disagree with.
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I know that this is a policy of the BB and I agree that one should not do so in a deragotory, disrespectful, or confrontational manner but we need to give absolute clarity to the understanding of the gospel and what it entails! If someone believes or proclaims a false gospel, they ought to be called out upon it and duly warned but we should do so not out of spite, anger, or pride, but with great humility and a desire for those who are not saved to come to the knowledge of the truth!

I will not come out and tell someone they are not saved but I will speak from an objective, third-person standpoint and say that if one is depending upon the sacramental system of the Roman Catholic Church, they are not saved!

And to be fair, I would say the very same thing to anyone thinking that being a "Baptist" automatically saves them or means that they are saved.;)
 
canadyjd

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
Armchair Apologist said:
I know that this is a policy of the BB and I agree that one should not do so in a deragotory, disrespectful, or confrontational manner but we need to give absolute clarity to the understanding of the gospel and what it entails! If someone believes or proclaims a false gospel, they ought to be called out upon it and duly warned but we should do so not out of spite, anger, or pride, but with great humility and a desire for those who are not saved to come to the knowledge of the truth!
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Well, the BB policy doesn’t say you can question another’s salvation as long as you are nice about it.

I’ve decided, after many years, that I cannot know if someone is saved or not because I cannot see God Holy Spirit indwelling. They could be saved, but misinformed, out of fellowship with God, immature etc.

I agree to correct a professing believer in love, but I’d never declare them saved or unsaved.
Armchair Apologist said:
I will not come out and tell someone they are not saved but I will speak from an objective, third-person standpoint and say that if one is depending upon the sacramental system of the Roman Catholic Church, they are not saved!
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Well, I’ll disagree they are necessarily “unsaved” in such cases. They could be misinformed, and saved, imo. Better to explain why the sacramental system doesn’t convey saving grace.
Armchair Apologist said:
And to be fair, I would say the very same thing to anyone thinking that being a "Baptist" automatically saves them or means that they are saved.;)
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Peace to you
 
A

Armchair Apologist

Well-Known Member
canadyjd said:
Well, I’ll disagree they are necessarily “unsaved” in such cases. They could be misinformed, and saved, imo. Better to explain why the sacramental system doesn’t convey saving grace.
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If someone says they are "not saved," I tend to agree with them.

Let me rephrase here: I believe it is proper to say that anyone trusting in their own works to save them are not saved. This is a blanket, doctrinal statement of fact and I believe that a believer cannot nor should he or she ever try to sugarcoat or marginalize the seriousness and severity of such a statement.

What we can do is keep such a statement in the "third person" and allow the Holy Spirit to do his work and transition this over to the "first" or "second person" as he sees fit.

I stand by my statement though: A Roman Catholic who is trusting in the sacramental system of his or her (Roman Catholic) church to save them is not saved! I would hope that a Roman Catholic would respond saying that their ultimate hope is in something FAR GREATER than the Roman Catholic Church and would then be able to articulate wheren lies this hope!
 
C

Cathode

Well-Known Member
Armchair Apologist said:
Of what "Spoken Word" are you speaking? Where do we find such today and how is it ever authoritative to anyone?
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God’s Word comes down to us in two forms The Spoken Word of God and Written Word of God.

Two traditions, the Oral Tradition and the Written Tradition.

“ Hold to the traditions we taught you, either by word of our mouth or by letter”

Protestantism rejected this, and declared that it would only follow the written tradition alone.
Therefore bible alonism is unscriptural ironically.
 
C

Cathode

Well-Known Member
You find Apostolic Oral teaching in the preaching of the Catholic Church.
The Spoken Word of God explains the Written Word of God.
Right interpretation of Scripture.

Not the countless human interpretations of scripture in Protestantism, human founded traditions of men.
 
JonC

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Novelist said:
The reason I ask is that I have attended several Catholic services (or Masses) that were led by five different priests. During their mini sermon or Homilies, I never once heard any one of them give the plan of salvation. They talked about being kind to your neighbor, overcoming trials in your life, and similar things, but I never heard them say anything about repenting of sin, turning to Christ as your Lord and Savior, or about being born again. I believe this would be the perfect opportunity to give the plan of salvation, but I have never heard it from them. This makes me wonder if they are saved or not as I believe that saved person; priest, pastor, deacon, lay person, church member, etc., if they are truly saved would want to see others saved. I believe that is one sign that a person is saved. I think that some Catholic priests are saved, but I also tend to believe that some are not.
Joe
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Some probably are. Some probably are not. Just like any Christian sect.

You have to remember that the purpose church meeting together is not to reach the lost but to equip the saints. So while I prefer the gospel being given (often those who are seeking find themselves doing so in church) that is not the purpose of the assembly.
 
JonC

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Cathode said:
Bible alonism is about power control, each man enshrines his own interpretation of scripture as the only truth.
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History tells a very different story (the Riman Catholic Church using the Bible and salvation for their own political power). This was how the Reformation began (and the Catholic Church itself made reforms). It is how the Catholic Church controlled armies. It is how the Catholic Church tried to weild power over England.

Scripture, in terms of major doctrines, do not need to be interpreted. There is only one way to believe many biblical texts, and "interpretations" merely explain away the words to hold power over other people.
 
C

Cathode

Well-Known Member
JonC said:
History tells a very different story (the Riman Catholic Church using the Bible and salvation for their own political power). This was how the Reformation began (and the Catholic Church itself made reforms). It is how the Catholic Church controlled armies. It is how the Catholic Church tried to weild power over England.

Scripture, in terms of major doctrines, do not need to be interpreted. There is only one way to believe many biblical texts, and "interpretations" merely explain away the words to hold power over other people.
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Protestantism thinks in terms of power, and spiritual self determination.

They often accuse Catholics of outsourcing their faith to the Church.
In fact its Bible alonists that have outsourced to themselves abitership of the faith.

The Catholic Church rightfully holds authority to teach the true interpretation of scripture, since it was founded by Christ to teach the truth of Christianity.

Bible alone traditions were founded by Luther, human traditions which dissent from each other on interpretation of scripture.
And none of them had anything to do with the Bible, the Bible didn’t come from Protestants or Baptists, only the Catholic Church.
 
rockytopva

rockytopva

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Cathode said:
Protestantism thinks in terms of power, and spiritual self determination.

They often accuse Catholics of outsourcing their faith to the Church.
In fact its Bible alonists that have outsourced to themselves abitership of the faith.

The Catholic Church rightfully holds authority to teach the true interpretation of scripture, since it was founded by Christ to teach the truth of Christianity.

Bible alone traditions were founded by Luther, human traditions which dissent from each other on interpretation of scripture.
And none of them had anything to do with the Bible, the Bible didn’t come from Protestants or Baptists, only the Catholic Church.
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What about the Orthodox before them? The Orthodox is a Christian church too, you know. Nikola Tesla's father, Milutin Tesla, was a respected Serbian Orthodox priest and a gifted writer and poet.
 
JonC

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Cathode said:
Protestantism thinks in terms of power, and spiritual self determination.

They often accuse Catholics of outsourcing their faith to the Church.
In fact its Bible alonists that have outsourced to themselves abitership of the faith.

The Catholic Church rightfully holds authority to teach the true interpretation of scripture, since it was founded by Christ to teach the truth of Christianity.

Bible alone traditions were founded by Luther, human traditions which dissent from each other on interpretation of scripture.
And none of them had anything to do with the Bible, the Bible didn’t come from Protestants or Baptists, only the Catholic Church.
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Some Protestants do. But they carried it over from Roman Catholic doctrine of the union of church and state. But generally Protestants do not think that way (I doubt most Catholics do anymore).

Proving the Roman Catholic Church uses the Bible as a means to gain power is not difficult. Just talk to Roman Catholics.

They teach that the Catholic Church gave us the Bible. They teach the myth that the Catholic Church existed during the time of the Apostles. This was to claim that Jesus' conversation with Peter was giving Peter a status that they now hold. They teach that the Pope is the vicar of God. They teach that priests are mediators between the laity and God. They teach that grace through sacraments are dependent on the Catholic Church. They teach that God has given the Catholic Church the authority to interpret Scripture, to create doctrine and practices apart from God's own words.

You can see the power grab in the Catholic Church. They have created a myth, telling their disciples that they existed centuries before they were actually formed.

Why do Catholics believe all of that? Because their religious cult told them it was true.

Same with Mormons. Why do Mormons believe the Book of Mormon is true? Because their cult tells them it is true.

This is the same with all of the cults. Why did people kill themselves to get on the spaceship behind the comet? Because the cult leaders told them to.


But real Christians have a different authority. We ignore the ramblings of old men, idiots, claiming to be vicars of God. We ignore fools cultists call "father" (an aspect of ancient Roman cults).

Why? Because we have God's Word. We have the words Catholics think is foolishness except as delineated by their cult.


I do understand that you cannot grasp God's words, that you believe you need mediators to explain to you what was written to common men in the common language of that time. But you have chosen to follow old fools rather than Christ.

You ARE the proof that the Roman Catholic Church uses religion as a means of power over people.
 
canadyjd

canadyjd

Well-Known Member
Armchair Apologist said:
If someone says they are "not saved," I tend to agree with them.
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Ok, I didn’t see anyone say they weren’t saved, but I could have missed it.
Armchair Apologist said:
Let me rephrase here: I believe it is proper to say that anyone trusting in their own works to save them are not saved.
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Or… they are saved but misinformed. I can’t see God Holy Spirit indwelling but trust God to correct their misunderstanding if they are saved. Perhaps God will put someone in their life to teach them.
Armchair Apologist said:
This is a blanket, doctrinal statement of fact and I believe that a believer cannot nor should he or she ever try to sugarcoat or marginalize the seriousness and severity of such a statement.
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Well I disagree it is a blanket doctrinal statement.

I agree scripture is clear a person is not saved by works (always with Paul a reference to OT Works of the Law)
Armchair Apologist said:
What we can do is keep such a statement in the "third person" and allow the Holy Spirit to do his work and transition this over to the "first" or "second person" as he sees fit.
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Agggghhhh. Too much grammar here.
Armchair Apologist said:
I stand by my statement though: A Roman Catholic who is trusting in the sacramental system of his or her (Roman Catholic) church to save them is not saved!
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I disagree. We cannot know what God Holy Spirit is doing in their life to guide them into truth, as He did with the Catholic priests, Luther and Calvin.

We should never declare anyone saved or unsaved. Well cannot know with certainty.
Armchair Apologist said:
I would hope that a Roman Catholic would respond saying that their ultimate hope is in something FAR GREATER than the Roman Catholic Church and would then be able to articulate wheren lies this hope!
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Agreed

Peace to you
 
A

Armchair Apologist

Well-Known Member
Cathode said:
God’s Word comes down to us in two forms The Spoken Word of God and Written Word of God.

Two traditions, the Oral Tradition and the Written Tradition.

“ Hold to the traditions we taught you, either by word of our mouth or by letter”

Protestantism rejected this, and declared that it would only follow the written tradition alone.
Therefore bible alonism is unscriptural ironically.
Click to expand...
And how do we know which "Traditions" are ordained of God and commanded of God's people to follow and which "Traditions" were fabricated by men and ought to be discarded?
 
A

Armchair Apologist

Well-Known Member
JonC said:
Some Protestants do. But they carried it over from Roman Catholic doctrine of the union of church and state. But generally Protestants do not think that way (I doubt most Catholics do anymore).

Proving the Roman Catholic Church uses the Bible as a means to gain power is not difficult. Just talk to Roman Catholics.
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Let's be perfectly honest here, organized religion of every form has been used to manipulate the masses pretty much since the beginning of time! The modern Roman Catholic papacy emerged due to the power vacuum that existed when the seat of the Roman Empire transitioned over to Constantinople. The reason Martin Luther was able to prevail was because he had substantial political backing that was capable of withstanding and resisting the powers of the papacy. It was not necessarily due to any sort of "Spiritual Awakening" among the kings and nobles of the Saxons, Lombards, etc., but more because they desired to get out from under the yoke of popery. This enabled the Protestant Reformation but it ultimately resulted in the 30-year war where both sides (Protestantism and Roman Catholicism) used "religion" to serve their own political ambitions!

I am sure there were many good Roman Catholics who simply wanted to live in peace, raise their families and so forth as with the Protestants. As always is the case, it is the kings and nobles who conscript the powerless to go out and fight and die to serve their own political ambitions!

Jesus said "My kingdom is not of this world" but such is a far cry from what the "Church" (the "Christian" establishment) has become! We see this with the so-called "Christian Nationalism" and pastors like Robert Jeffress of First Baptist Dallas who has literally become a "king maker" among Conservative Republicans endorsing candidates and their political campaigning in places such as First Baptist Dallas, Liberty University, and Bob Jones University! Conservative Republicans say everything a Christian wants to hear and often do so not because they possess such values but because espousing such values is the key to the accrual of their political power! Christians ought to be mindful of this and should still "Vote Right" but also remember what Jesus said and tha their true citizenship is in heaven!

Our fight here is not with the political and religious establishments but for the purity and clarity of the gospel which is able to keep our souls from Hell!
 
N

Novelist

Member
JonC said:
Some probably are. Some probably are not. Just like any Christian sect.

You have to remember that the purpose church meeting together is not to reach the lost but to equip the saints. So while I prefer the gospel being given (often those who are seeking find themselves doing so in church) that is not the purpose of the assembly.
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I agree to a point. While reaching the lost may not be the purpose (I prefer to say the SOLE purpose) of assembling together, but if we are commissioned to reach out, reach the lost, and preach the gospel to all nations, then sometime during a church service is the perfect oppotunity.
 
N

Novelist

Member
And I don't get this whole tradition thing and its importance to the Catholic church. It might be a tradition for me to rob a bank on January 1st every year, but that don't mean it's right. I was talking to a Catholic gentleman the other day and he said that they don't believe that the Bible is the real divinely inspired word of God. He said it was written by men and doesn't have much relevance today. I don't know if all Catholics believe that but this guy certainly does. If that's what one believes, then one can make up anything and claim it to be true.
 
JonC

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Novelist said:
I agree to a point. While reaching the lost may not be the purpose (I prefer to say the SOLE purpose) of assembling together, but if we are commissioned to reach out, reach the lost, and preach the gospel to all nations, then sometime during a church service is the perfect oppotunity.
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I agree. Our doors are open (we do not require a membership card to enter). In the Bible tongues were used in the assembly as a sign to the unbeliever.
 
JonC

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Novelist said:
And I don't get this whole tradition thing and its importance to the Catholic church. It might be a tradition for me to rob a bank on January 1st every year, but that don't mean it's right. I was talking to a Catholic gentleman the other day and he said that they don't believe that the Bible is the real divinely inspired word of God. He said it was written by men and doesn't have much relevance today. I don't know if all Catholics believe that but this guy certainly does. If that's what one believes, then one can make up anything and claim it to be true.
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Technically Catholics do not believe the Bible itself. They believe the Bible as related to them through their organization (it is what their leaders say the Bible means and teaches that is important, not God's actual words).
 
JonC

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Armchair Apologist said:
Let's be perfectly honest here, organized religion of every form has been used to manipulate the masses pretty much since the beginning of time! The modern Roman Catholic papacy emerged due to the power vacuum that existed when the seat of the Roman Empire transitioned over to Constantinople. The reason Martin Luther was able to prevail was because he had substantial political backing that was capable of withstanding and resisting the powers of the papacy. It was not necessarily due to any sort of "Spiritual Awakening" among the kings and nobles of the Saxons, Lombards, etc., but more because they desired to get out from under the yoke of popery. This enabled the Protestant Reformation but it ultimately resulted in the 30-year war where both sides (Protestantism and Roman Catholicism) used "religion" to serve their own political ambitions!

I am sure there were many good Roman Catholics who simply wanted to live in peace, raise their families and so forth as with the Protestants. As always is the case, it is the kings and nobles who conscript the powerless to go out and fight and die to serve their own political ambitions!

Jesus said "My kingdom is not of this world" but such is a far cry from what the "Church" (the "Christian" establishment) has become! We see this with the so-called "Christian Nationalism" and pastors like Robert Jeffress of First Baptist Dallas who has literally become a "king maker" among Conservative Republicans endorsing candidates and their political campaigning in places such as First Baptist Dallas, Liberty University, and Bob Jones University! Conservative Republicans say everything a Christian wants to hear and often do so not because they possess such values but because espousing such values is the key to the accrual of their political power! Christians ought to be mindful of this and should still "Vote Right" but also remember what Jesus said and tha their true citizenship is in heaven!

Our fight here is not with the political and religious establishments but for the purity and clarity of the gospel which is able to keep our souls from Hell!
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I partly agree.

There have always been organizations that use the Faith as tools for their own power. This birthed the Catholic Church. We agree there.

I also agree with you about Christian nationalism.

We have two major political parties. The DNC is a wolf that proudly announces its identity. The GOP is a wolf in sheep's clothing. I view the latter as the greater danger.

Our fight is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
 
C

Cathode

Well-Known Member
Armchair Apologist said:
And how do we know which "Traditions" are ordained of God and commanded of God's people to follow and which "Traditions" were fabricated by men and ought to be discarded?
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That’s why the Church is established by Jesus through the Apostles and their successors. The Catholic Church was guided by God to be the pillar and foundation of the Truth.

Luther chose his opinions and interpretations of scripture over the Apostles understanding of scripture handed down.

But the nature of “ Bible alone “ is not static but relativistic, it devolves from personal interpretation to personal interpretation. So no one holds all of Luther’s interpretations today, not even Lutherans.

The golden calf of personal opinion is enshrined in bible alonism, founding thousands of human founded traditions of men.
Even churches of the individual, guys saying they won’t attend a church ever again because the preachers didn’t teach their interpretations of scripture.

They alone are the only ones that truly understand the scripture. Bible alone is ego alone. It appeals to a certain pathology.

So how do you know which traditions are true?

Easy, by process of elimination, timeline and origin.

Protestantism was man founded traditions starting with Luther, Calvin etc.

Human origin, human interpretation, human doctrines, human tradition.

Immediately, you can eliminate all of these human traditions and traditions that devolved from them.
You can save yourself huge amounts of time just by finding out which traditions are human founded. Their origins.

Side note.
A friend of mine asked AI who started the Catholic Church, and the answer came back, Jesus Christ.

He then asked who founded Protestantism and the answer came back, Martin Luther first, but then listed all the other Bible alone , Faith alone human founders that rebelled from each other and separated unity from each other.

So, you can safely disregard all these human founded religions, right of the bat.
Ironically, none of them had anything to do with the Bible. The Bible didn’t come from any of their human founded traditions.

The Bible has it’s origins in the Catholic Church, the Catholic Church preserved all the scriptures from the Apostles through great persecutions and finally canonised the Bible itself.
 
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