You do know where the Bible came from don’t you?
You at least know it didn’t come from Protestantism in 1611?
You know about the Catholic Councils regarding the Canon at least?
It’s what Catholics do, canonise things.
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Just Wondering? Do you think Catholic Priests Are Saved?
- Thread starter Novelist
- Start date
You do know where the Bible came from don’t you?
You at least know it didn’t come from Protestantism in 1611?
You know about the Catholic Councils regarding the Canon at least?
It’s what Catholics do, canonise things.
Not really mate.
I’ve looked into Bible history for a long time, and no Protestant aided in its construction.
It was an all Catholic show.
All councils of Catholics that determined the Canon guided infallibly by God.
Professor Peter Flint had intellectual honesty and a great grasp of history to admit this. It’s rare amid so much prejudice.
Armchair Apologist
Well-Known Member
You were in my neck of the woods! I live in the Houston area (Sugar Land).
Always been meaning to do some more surf fishing out at San Luis Pass where you had better have a 4x4 in order to avoid getting stuck in the sand. I was out there once and didn't have much luck. Pier 61 and Pelican Island are main go to places when I have the wife and kids/grandkids. I caught a big Bull Red out along the jetty at Freeport Surfside and we often hit up Matagorda to do some fishing and crabbing.
Y'all are ever back in my neck of the woods, let me know! I also know a friend who has a friend who has a boat!
You are correct. No Protestant aided in its construction. It was the Baptists who aided in its construction long before there were any Catholics around.
If the Catholics are so into the Bible as you claim, then why am I the only person in the whole building who brings a Bible when I attend an occasional Catholic Mess with my GF, who is Catholic. I have had several recent discussions with various Catholic folks who know very little about what is in the Bible. I beat them all day long in Bible knowledge. Sad but true.
BTW, it is brutal for me to sit through a Catholic Mess. It is hard to have to listen to of all of the untruths and to see all of the idolatry. When I enter the building I don't bow or even look toward the altar. I just sit there with my ear plugs. I then proceed to read silently from my Bible while everything else is going on. I sit there and I don't stand when everyone else stands. Soon it's over and I breathe easily again. Such a big waste of time, except when I am reading from my Bible of course.
You were in my neck of the woods! I live in the Houston area (Sugar Land).
Always been meaning to do some more surf fishing out at San Luis Pass where you had better have a 4x4 in order to avoid getting stuck in the sand. I was out there once and didn't have much luck. Pier 61 and Pelican Island are main go to places when I have the wife and kids/grandkids. I caught a big Bull Red out along the jetty at Freeport Surfside and we often hit up Matagorda to do some fishing and crabbing.
Y'all are ever back in my neck of the woods, let me know! I also know a friend who has a friend who has a boat!
What sort of surf rig do you have? We use Alveys a lot with 13 to 15 foot rods. Big egg beaters like Stellas.
I use the Abu Garcia chrome rocket made in Sweden version, for estuary and surf as well. But now it’s worth 4-5 times more than when I bought it. It can’t be replaced now, so I think I’ll take care of it and hand it down.
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If you listen to what is happening at Mass, you will hear the scriptures being read out.
The Eucharistic Liturgy is loaded with scripture as well.
Look at Scott Hahn’s account of his first Mass. He saw all the scripture playing out.
“As the Mass moved on, however, something hit me. My Bible wasn’t just beside me. It was before me—in the words of the Mass! One line from Isaiah, another from the Psalms, another from Paul. The experience was overwhelming. I wanted to stop everything and shout, “Hey, can I explain what’s happening in Scripture? This is great!” Still, I maintained my observer status. I remained on the sidelines until I heard the priest pronounce the words of consecration: “This is My body… This is the cup of My blood”. Then I felt all my doubt drain away. As I saw the priest raise that white host, I felt a prayer surge from my heart in a whisper: “My Lord and my God. That’s really you!”
“As the Mass moved on, however, something hit me. My Bible wasn’t just beside me. It was before me—in the words of the Mass! One line from Isaiah, another from the Psalms, another from Paul. The experience was overwhelming. I wanted to stop everything and shout, “Hey, can I explain what’s happening in Scripture? This is great!” Still, I maintained my observer status. I remained on the sidelines until I heard the priest pronounce the words of consecration: “This is My body… This is the cup of My blood”. Then I felt all my doubt drain away. As I saw the priest raise that white host, I felt a prayer surge from my heart in a whisper: “My Lord and my God. That’s really you!”
Yes, there are 3 or 4 verses read, yet no one in attendance has a Bible with them to read along (except me.) I have heard no scripture being read in any liturgy or at any other time during the Mess.
Well good for him. I have had no similar experience at a Catholic Mess.
The measure you measure will be measured unto you.
You will get more out of Mass if you are genuine. If you are there determined to be disengaged, self righteous and not listening, then you will get nothing.
Especially if you are there to mock, calling the Mass, the Mess.
Every Mass has scripture read, The Old Testament, New Testament and Gospel readings.
Don’t tell me you didn’t hear the scripture read at Mass. This is utterly disingenuous.
You are mocking, so the grace he experienced will not be there for you.
It’s a shame.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
When you say someone must “follow” the “true plan” of salvation, you sound like a works based salvation because salvation depends on what someone does.
Salvation is a work of God from start to finish, initiated by God, empowered by God, finished by God.
The plan is explained in 1 Corinthians 1, God was well pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
The message is Jesus Christ, Crucified for sins, resurrected, seen by more than 500 people that knew He had died.
The Catholics have the gospel. God Holy Spirit is able to convict them of that truth, despite Catholic traditions and dogma.
Peace to you
Armchair Apologist
Well-Known Member
Well, you are basically saying that you know which tradition is "legit" because the Roman Catholic Church said so!
The Protestants reevaluated some of these "traditions" and checked them against the scriptures and from there ditched many of them. Most of these so-called "traditions" evolved over the years and were completely non-existent during the apostolic era - especially those pertaining to Mary's immaculate conception, assumption, and so forth.
Baptists admittedly have their own traditions that creep in such as 10AM Sunday School, 11AM Main Service, singing out of a hymnal and always skipping the second to last stanza, etc. Some of these traditions can become quite "Sacred" to certain Baptists especially if you are found sitting in their seat!
The books that make up the Bible were received by the Church. I have already stated that we have two completely different views pertaining to what the Church is but needless to say, it was not a bunch of bishops and cardinals sitting in a room sorting out what books did and what books did not belong in the canon. The church instinctively knew which were authentic, which were not, and which were inspired and canonical and this happened over the course of time. When someone actually compiled the 27 books of the NT, they were simply acknowledging what the church had already received. Nothing more, nothing less. The content of the Apocrypha was always debated among the Jews as well as the Christians and even today, they (Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, etc.) cannot agree on which books of the apocrypha are canononical or should be included.
The Roman Catholic Church as we know it today did not exist during apostolic times. It evolved into what it is over the centuries - especially during the medieval era.
I'm sorry, but there is no way I can be "engaged" in something that is utterly nonsense. Yes, every Mess has a scripture reading, and like I said before, I take my Bible so that I can read along, but what good does it do when no one is reading along or with no preacher to expound upon the scripture being read, and nothing being said in how we can apply that scripture to our daily lives? I am not there to mock. The whole service mocks itself.
Also, some of the "scripture" being read is from books not even in the Bible. Talk about false doctrine.
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Come on now. You know what I mean. You really offend me by saying that I sound like I have a works based salvation. That couldn't be farther from the truth. Salvation is by grace through faith and not of works. That is what I believe. Catholics, though believe in certain works being necessary for salvation. Asking God to save you and asking Christ to come into your heart and forgive you of your sins is not works.
I have had positive scriptural and grace experiences in Baptist churches, but not in a Catholic church, so that is not a shame. What is a shame is that most Catholics, at least the many I have talked to don't even know how to be saved. They believe that by going to church, taking communion, going to confession, and following or participating in the sacraments is what it takes to be saved. These things are works and works will not save you. Salvation is a simple thing. Accept Jesus as your lord and savior, repent or turn away from sin and that's it. Ye must be born again.
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Armchair Apologist
Well-Known Member
I have several but one in particular is a huge Shakespeare rod with a Quantum spinner that unfortunately is still a "Virgin" (still has not caught its first 'significant' fish). Not often I get to break it out as it needs a good bit of room for casting and I don't often get to go out and do the real surf fishing as I would like. I don't think I have anything I paid over $100 for and the advantage of this is that I also do not cry so much when something gets either lost or ruined.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
And yet you mentioned it in support of your position.
And Protestants see God restoring the truth of His Word that was rejected by the Catholic Church in favor of human tradition and out right treachery at times.
Correct, the rejection of the Apostles traditional interpretation of scripture in favor of a corrupt interpretation by a corrupt Catholic Church was catastrophic for all that died believing the lie of plenary indulgences, and of Mary as a co-redeemer.
The 66 books of the Bible were collected by the end of the first century by the Apostolic churches, as the apostles died and believers realized Jesus might not return in their lifetimes.
The Catholic Church did not come into existence until Constantine in the 4th century, despite the attempts to rewrite history.
These 66 books were literally the “canon” (which means a measuring rod). They were the measuring rod by which later books were judged as being written by Apostles or inspired by God.
Later books became known as apocrypha, not scripture.
It wasn’t until the reformation that the Catholic Church decided to “canonize” some of the apocrypha books as “scripture” because they supported some of their errant doctrine. Council of Trent? Mid 1500’s?
So please be intellectually honest. The Catholic Church embraced doctrine not found in scripture recognized as such for almost 1500 years, and when some pious Catholic priests attempted to point out the error, the official church position was to double down on the errors and pretend those books were scripture all along.
And so, you continue to repeat the falsehood to this day
You are delusional
Falsehood
Falsehood.
The Roman Catholic Church is a human established institution that seeks to re-enslave followers into an OT style of works and traditions which Jesus, and His apostles, clearly taught against.
Peace to you
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Not intending to offend you. I’m just trying to get all of us to be careful with our words.
Though the Bible clearly establishes the gospel as the means of salvation, Not everyone follows the same “path” to salvation . Let me explain.
I once knew a man that believed if you didn’t weep when you were saved, you were not really saved. He based that upon repentance as a genuine sorry for past behavior that included weeping in remorse.
He would asked a person if they wept when they were saved. If they said “no”, he would declare them to be unsaved.
I have learned at this late point in my life I shouldn’t declare anyone saved or unsaved and leave such things to our God.
I never doubted.
Agreed in both points.
Where we disagree is the conclusion that if a Catholic believes his works are contributing to his continuing salvation, or even his initial salvation, then he cannot be saved.
I believe God Holy Spirit can bring someone to salvation without a full understanding of the mechanics of how it all fits together.
I would hope that, over time, Holy Spirit would guide them into a deeper understanding of that reality.
Peace to you