Salvation of Mankind

Why did the man call Jesus "Lord" if he did not believe Jesus was his Lord? How did he know about Jesus, the kingdom, etc. if he had not previously heard about it?

While you are at it, go ahead and explain the rest of those verses you continue to ignore...

 

First, I reject the term “gospel regeneration.” We are talking about what the Scripture teaches about being born again.

No it doesn’t. When God ordains the ends he ordains the means. The preaching of the gospel to the elect is also a part of God’s plans. God is the one who tied salvation to the message (Rom 10:13; 1 Cor 1:18ff.; 1 Peter 1:21-25). Certainly God can do anything he wants to in whatever manner is consistent with his nature. In Scripture, God has told us how he does things.

You ever hear of sign language??? It is a language of communication with the deaf. This is a ridiculous objection because the gospel can be read, can be explained in a variety of ways to people of all intellects. For those mental incompetents, we can be sure that God judges fairly. You cannot contradict the clear teaching of Scripture by the minute exceptions.

Again, a severe misunderstanding of theology. God gives man the ability to go and preach the gospel and where he ordains the ends, he ordains the means.

Not really, because Christ was referring to the atonement. Sins had been atoned for. However, the fruit of election is clearly worked out in time. In your gospel, there does not seem to be a need for Paul to have told the Philippian jailer to “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.” He should have told him just to rejoice that he was already saved.

How is the bringing of life different than regeneration?? By definition, regeneration is being born, hence coming to life and in Scripture it is clearly tied to the message preached.

God’s sovereignty is tied only to God’s purposes of himself to act in accordance with his nature and eternal plan. Man’s ability to preach the gospel is a part of this.

At the heart of this discussion is a blatant denial of biblical truth. If you were not saved in response to the preaching of the gospel message then you were not saved.

It pleased God by the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe (1 Cor 1:22).
You were born again … through the word of God (1 Peter 1:22).
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ (Rom 10:17).

You can dispute this all you want but it is clear in Scripture. At this point there is no essential difference between you and Ray. Both have constructed a logical view that fails to take Scripture into account. While you are on totally opposite ends of the spectrum (from blatant arminian to whatever you are – I don’t even want to use the name Calvinist for you), your similarities in methodology are frighteningly similar.

When Scripture speaks, I do not have the option of redefining it so that it can fit my preconceived notion of what ought to be.

 

Agreed. That wasn't the point. The point was that doing the will of God is not the same as salvation.

People who live in areas where the gospel could not be heard or is not heard cannot possibly be saved. Without a doubt, that is the teaching of Scripture. The Bible is most certainly not wrong about this.

 

People who live in areas where the gospel could not be heard or is not heard cannot possibly be saved. Without a doubt, that is the teaching of Scripture. The Bible is most certainly not wrong about this.

This is not exactly what the Bible says. This is an implicatation of what the Bible says. What the Bible says is:

Romans 2

5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,

All of our actions have a reason. God has written His truths in our hearts. We may deny them or we may accept them. Why we accept them or deny them isn't the issue(Total Predestination through Total Free Will or somewhere in between), the issue is that what you are saying is limiting God. The final judgement is God's. What you are saying isn't Biblically iron clad.

In other words, I believe you are putting words into God's mouth.

[ April 17, 2002, 10:39 AM: Message edited by: Tuor ]

 

Are you ignoring all the verses I listed above that very clearly teach what I have said? Rom 10 is explicit -- they cannot be saved without belief; they cannot believe with hearing; they cannot hear with a preacher because faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

The Romans 2 passage you are referring to is most likely hypothetical. Because God is impartial, all those who have sufficient works of righteousness will be granted eternal life. Therefore, no one can claim that God is impartial. However, Paul refutes your claim in Rom 3:10-12 where he expressly and explicitly says that no one is seeking God.

Far to teh contrary, it does seem iron clad based on Scripture. It is true that the final judgment is God's. The question is, Can God judge by a standard other than the standard that he has told us he will judge by? The answer is no; if he did, he would be untruthful and unjust to himself.

I have quoted the Word of God. It is up to you to say why that Scripture does not mean what it says.

 

The Romans 2 passage you are referring to is most likely hypothetical. Because God is impartial, all those who have sufficient works of righteousness will be granted eternal life. Therefore, no one can claim that God is impartial. However, Paul refutes your claim in Rom 3:10-12 where he expressly and explicitly says that no one is seeking God.

If no one seeks God, then what are we doing here? I believe I am seeking God, but since nobody does this, my attempts must be in vain.

 

Those who refuse to preach the gospel are NOT doing what God wants them to do. Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, told Timothy, "But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry." (II Tim. 4:5)

[ April 17, 2002, 02:57 PM: Message edited by: Historic Baptist ]

 

Of course, true biblical evangelists are not under a mission board that supplies their needs. God will supply all their needs. By the way, Tynadale1946, I have read ORIGINAL OLD SCHOOL Primitive Baptist writings, and they were NOT anti-missions, but anti-mission board. I share that same belief, but to say that the elect will be saved willy nilly is not only unbiblical but shows some people's disrespect for the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ for which the Apostles gave their life...

Just think of it this way...If it weren't for the Apostles' and the Baptists who came from Whales (Europe) over to America you wouldn't know the truth you do today. The Primitive Baptists came from the Historic Baptists who came from Whales (Europe)....so don't be to quick to put down missionary labor.

[ April 17, 2002, 03:11 PM: Message edited by: Historic Baptist ]

 

I wish you would get in the habit of reading contextually, both Scripture and my posts. You take so many things out of context and end up with crazy statements. Romans 3 is talking about the natural man -- those who are in sin. You are seeking God because God has unilaterally given you the will and desire to seek him. Your seeking is the fruit of regeneration in your life.

 

Creation testifies to God's nature

Creation is also the Word of God

 

Larry, why does God need anything to make someone want to seek Him out? Why couldn't God give that desire to someone who lives in a region where the Bible does not exist?

 

God doesn't "need" anything. Man is the one who needs something because sin has so affected man so as to turn him completely against God.

He could ... but it is contrary to what he said he would do.

 

So you are saying the message of the Bible brings the desire to follow God. It 'turns on' the desire in a certain way.

 

"Why couldn't God give that desire to someone who lives in a region where the Bible does not exist?" --Tuor

God could do all things, but is there any scriptural precedant for God doing such a thing? Look at your own experience...were you seeking God before you herad the gospel? Did you wake up one day and say, "I think I'll start seeking after God today?" No, of course not! Look at what Paul the apostle said:

[Rom. 10:14] How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Sometimes if you dare to take scripture at face value, you'll find answers. Paul just cleared up this whole argument in one sentence: "How shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?"

"So you are saying the message of the Bible brings the desire to follow God. It 'turns on' the desire in a certain way." --Tuor

Nobody here is teaching gospel regeneration. A man could sit under the most eloquent preacher of all time and not be phased one bit by the preaching. If there is not Spirit to draw, there is no conversion. I'm sure Pastor Larry also agrees on that point. How does God then call His people?

[II Thess. 2:14] Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Peopl cannot put their trust in someone of whom they have not heard. Paul the apostle has so clearly stated this fact. Peopl don't wake up one day and believe that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God without ever hearing the gospel. Like I said, look at your own experience.

[I Pet. 1:23] Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Christians are born of the Spirit by [means of] the word of God, for it is the gospel that brings to the realization one's guilt before a holy and just God. The Spirit enables us to believe the gospel. The written gospel itself is not sufficient for salvation, and no one here is teaching this. Otherwise, we would not know we were sinners and in need of a Savior were it not for the written word of God telling us so.

[ April 17, 2002, 11:44 PM: Message edited by: Historic Baptist ]

 

No.

God is the one who gives understanding and a desire to seek him. The message is what tells people what to believe and what to do.

 

If what you are saying is true, then it is impossible for a person to actually seek out God on his own. The statment about being able to is a lie. The statement that some Gentiles showing that they have God's laws written on their hearts is a lie.

 

It is impossible for unaided man to seek out God on his own. That is clear from Scripture. That does not mean that the second statement is a lie. The second statement (God's laws written on the hearts) refers to the conscience. Every person has a conscience and instinctively knows the difference between right and wrong. This is because of the innate knowledge of God (Rom 1:18ff) mediated through the conscience of man because of the image of God in man.

So in short, while everyone instinctively knows that there is a God and by nature do things that are a part of the law of God (i.e., condemn stealing, murder, etc.), that does not equate to finding God on their own or apart from the propositional message of God.

 

"There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." [Romans 3:11]

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." [John 6:44]

"And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." [John 6:65]

The written gospel is the good news of what Jesus has done. It is where we find our beliefs and where we first learn of our need of a Savior because of our sin. No conviction, no conversion! You cannot get under conviction without first knowing you're a sinner. You find out you're a sinner by reading/hearing the word of God, the 1611 King James Bible [That is, if you are speaking English]. You would be in a mess if it were not for the written word.

 

"Elder" does not help your position when you do not address the relevant Scriptures. There are many Scriptures that expressly refute your contentions contained herein. Your position is inherently unbiblical because it denies the expressly written truth of God. While you believe the gospel message is unnecessary to salvation, Scripture disagrees with you. Seeing the communicated message of the gospel as necessary for salvation does not in anyway compromise the sufficiency or finality of Christ's atonement. Where God speaks, we do not have the option of disagreeing with him. When he said he was pleased by the foolishness of the message preached to save the ones who believe, we should accept that. When he siad that apart from the word of Christ, faith and salvation are impossible, we should accept that. As an elder, you have a tremendous weight of responsibility placed on your as your pastor your church and minister the word. You will be judged by a higher standard. Therefore, be careful to preach the truth so that you will not be held responsible for not only your own false belief but also those whom you lead down the wrong path.