Salvation of Mankind

[tyndale1946]

Pastor Larry I told Chris Temple that this same Elder Hulan Bass is willing to a friendly debate. I invited Chris but he declined and the offer still stands.

Another reason, I have not quoted any scriptures in this writing is because, I challenge any advocate of this Gospel-Regeneration Theory or this Gospel-Assisted Regeneration Theory to open discussion over an open bible, publicly or privately, through the mail or the internet. hulbass@thrifty.net

Pastor Larry I would like to see this debate held here on the Baptist Board Debate Forum and if you are a true defender of your position are you going to turn this challenge down? I will contact Elder Bass personally if you want to defend your position... Is the game afoot? I know the Primitive Baptist brethren on the Baptist Board will sure be watching!... Brother Glen

 

[Christopher]

"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain." (I Cor. 15:1-2)

The saints at the church of Corinth received (past tense) and were standing (present tense) in the gospel which Paul preached unto them. Paul told the saints they were saved by the gospel if they kept in memory what he preached. Does this mean the Corinthian saints would be eternally damned if they didn't keep in memory what Paul preached unto them? Perish the thought! The saints at Corinth had already received and were standing in the word which is evidence of eternal life.

I am guessing you believe in the absolute predestination of all things. The subject of predestination only occurs four times in the Bible, and it's always used in the context of the saints' eternal destiny. Never is the word used to speak of anything else.

"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." (Phil. 2:12)

There's no such thing as working out your eternal salvation because "it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." (Rom. 9:16) Jesus Christ and He alone is the author of eternal salvation. (Heb. 5:9)

 

[tyndale1946]

I guess that about covers it Preacher Man... I'll Amen that!... Brother Glen

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by tyndale1946:
Pastor Larry I told Chris Temple that this same Elder Hulan Bass is willing to a friendly debate. I invited Chris but he declined and the offer still stands.

I really do not have time to get into a debate like that. This broad stretches me timewise.

Another reason, I have not quoted any scriptures in this writing is because, I challenge any advocate of this Gospel-Regeneration Theory or this Gospel-Assisted Regeneration Theory to open discussion over an open bible, publicly or privately, through the mail or the internet. hulbass@thrifty.net

I have cited some of the relevant Scripture so go ahead and discuss it. If I have time, I will go toe to toe about the Bible and what God has revealed to us. I will not discuss your personal theories.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Christopher:
"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain." (I Cor. 15:1-2)

I am not sure what your point here is. It does not seem to have any relevance to this discussion at hand.

I am guessing you believe in the absolute predestination of all things. The subject of predestination only occurs four times in the Bible, and it's always used in the context of the saints' eternal destiny. Never is the word used to speak of anything else.

The subject of predestination occurs many more times than six. The word proorizo which is generally translated "predestine" is used 6 times (Acts 4:28; Rom 8:29; Rom 8:30; 1 cor 2:7; Eph 1:5; Eph 1:11). At least two of these are only peripherally related to eternal salvation and perhaps more. So you are wrong on both counts. But again ... what is the point? This appears irrelevant.

There's no such thing as working out your eternal salvation because "it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." (Rom. 9:16) Jesus Christ and He alone is the author of eternal salvation. (Heb. 5:9)

Paul didn't say to work out your eternal salvation so again, this is irrelevant. Paul is telling the reader to live in accordance with their status ... perform their salvation.

 

[Christopher]

"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain." (1 Cor. 15:1-2)

You believe that if you don't hear the gospel you cannot be saved. The written gospel doesn't save anyone. The Living Gospel, Jesus Christ, is where people find salvation. Whether one hears the gospel or not, does it change the fact that Jesus died for them? The written gospel is only the account of what Jesus did. If I deposited $100.00 in your bank account, and you never knew about it, does it change the fact that I deposited $100.00? My question: What happens if one doesn't keep the gospel in memory? God's people are saved by the gospel only if they keep it in memory.

"To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation." (2 Cor. 5:19)

Jesus did the same thing for His people. He imputed His righteousness to them instead of their trespasses. If His people never hear about it, does it change the fact of what Jesus did? Jesus committed the word of reconciliation (the gospel) to the apostles. The word of reconciliation is only the account of what Jesus did and was not intended to be used for a substitute. The gospel is simply the good news of what Jesus did. The gospel is primarily for the sheep; to comfort, edify, educate, exhort, and strengthen them.

"Behold, ye trust in lying words, that cannot profit. Will ye steal, murder, and commit adultery, and swear falsely, and burn incense unto Baal, and walk after other gods whom ye know not; And come and stand before me in this house, which is called by my name, and say, We are delivered to do all these abominations?" (Jer. 7:8-10)

There goes your absolute predestination. If you believe all the elect will hear the gospel, you have to believe the absolute predestination of all things. If not, then how do you know the elect will hear the gospel?

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Christopher:
You believe that if you don't hear the gospel you cannot be saved. The written gospel doesn't save anyone. The Living Gospel, Jesus Christ, is where people find salvation.

]These are both all three true. Why do you presume that Christ would die for someone and then not tell them about it? The Scripture is clear that regeneration comes by the word -- the living and abiding word of God which was preached to you (1 Peter 1:22-25). It is additionally clear that they cannot be saved unless they believe, they cannot believe unless they hear, they cannot hear unless someone tell them (Rom 10:14-16).

What happens if one doesn't keep the gospel in memory? God's people are saved by the gospel only if they keep it in memory.

Why do you presume that God will save someone and then let them forget it? Scripture here is again is clear -- you have been saved if you hold fast your profession (Heb 3:12-14); you have been reconciled if you continue (Col 1:22-24); you have been saved unless you fail the test (2 Cor 13:5). There is no room here for someone to be saved who (1) does not know who they were saved by and what they were saved from, and (2) does not continue in the faith.

"To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation." (2 Cor. 5:19)

What is the "word of reconciliation" and why does God "make an appeal through us (2 cor 5:18)? Why does Paul say "we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God" (2 cor 5:18). This is wholly inconsistent. According to you, the ministry/word of reconciliation is not needed and there is no need to beg people to be reconciled to God.

The gospel is simply the good news of what Jesus did. The gospel is primarily for the sheep; to comfort, edify, educate, exhort, and strengthen them.

Jesus said "I did not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance." Evidently there is a need for it. Once we are saved we are righteous. Therefore, Jesus is not calling us. Who was he calling? The unsaved.

"Behold, ye trust in lying words, that cannot profit. Will ye steal, murder, and commit adultery, and swear falsely, and burn incense unto Baal, and walk after other gods whom ye know not; And come and stand before me in this house, which is called by my name, and say, We are delivered to do all these abominations?" (Jer. 7:8-10)

Once again, a passage totally out of place. What in the world is this doing here? Please constrain your posts to verses dealing with the subject at hand.

If you believe all the elect will hear the gospel, you have to believe the absolute predestination of all things. If not, then how do you know the elect will hear the gospel?

First I never disagreed. Second, I know the elect will hear the gospel because God said that is how people are saved and he will save the elect. You have constructed a false dichotomy by making wrong assumptions.

[ April 22, 2002, 04:43 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

[Christopher]

The Scripture is clear that regeneration comes by the word -- the living and abiding word of God which was preached to you (1 Peter 1:22-25).

"The key to this text is found in the study of the Bible Subject of SEED. By rightly dividing the word of truth (2nd Tim. 2;15) on this subject we find THREE (3) distinct categories therein. 1. Jesus Himself is THE Seed. - Gen. 3:15; Gal. 3:16; 2. Then there is the NEW BIRTH Seed - 1st Peter 1:23; 1st John 3:9; and, 3. There is a Gospel Seed - N.T. Church - John the Baptist - all found in Matt. 13:31-32; Luke 8:11. This word "word" in the Luke text is in the Greek = Rhemas - meaning printed or written; whereas the Greek word in the word "word" in 1st Peter 1:23 is totally different. It is - Logos = meaning the very out-breathing of God Himself, which is implemented by the Voice of the Son of God - John
5:25; 6:63. There is NO WAY that a person can honestly interpret - 1st Peter 1:23 as being "Gospel Regeneration." --Elder Hulan Bass

Why do you presume that God will save someone and then let them forget it?

If what you are saying is true then Paul's whole discourse to the Corinthian saints has no purpose. I guess he was just writing to waste time.

"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain." (1 Cor. 15:1-2)

If you look at all the problems facing the church at Corinth you would easily see they were not keeping in memory that which Paul had preached unto them. However, Paul still addressed them as the church of God, as being sanctified, and called saints. (1 Cor. 1:2)

There is no room here for someone to be saved who (1) does not know who they were saved by and what they were saved from...

So much for those saints who get Alzheimer's or some other serious illness. What do you think about this verse?

"If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself." (2 Tim. 2:13)

Contrary to your view, not all God's saints are faithful.

Why does Paul say "we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God" (2 cor 5:18).

God's people were reconciled to Him when Jesus died on the cross.

"For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life." (Rom. 5:10)

"The verb is not active but passive. He does not call upon them to change themselves for he has already established that it is God who has done the reconciling (v. 18)." --King James Bible Commentary

There are three types of justification:

1. by grace - "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:" (Rom. 3:24) From eternity's standpoint, God's people are only justified by grace ALONE. This is based solely on Christ's finished work on Calvary.

2. by faith - "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:" (Rom. 5:1) From the believer's standpoint, he or she can be justified by faith. Faith contributes to our time salvation, that is, the salvation we are working out here in time. It is through faith we can have "peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."

3. by works - "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (Jas. 2:24) Obviously one cannot be justified by grace, faith, and works. There is only one requirement for eternal salvation, and that is the finished work of Christ on Calvary. Christians are justified by works before men. Just like Jesus said: "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. (Matt. 5:16)

 

[Pastor Larry]

"The key to this text is found in the study of the Bible Subject of SEED.

Really the key is reading the text and seeing what it says. The text talks of the Word of God, calls it the Word that was preached, and references for support an OT passage that has nothing to do with Christ. You are barking up the wrong tree here. Just read the text for what it says.

PL: Why do you presume that God will save someone and then let them forget it? Cristopher: If what you are saying is true then Paul's whole discourse to the Corinthian saints has no purpose. I guess he was just writing to waste time.

This doesn’t make sense. Why would it be a waste of time. 1 Cor 15:1-2 supports me. They received the gospel which Paul preached and were saved by it unless they forget and show themselves to have believed in vain. “Holding fast” there is probably not the idea of losing memory but of turning from it or abandoning it. It is the same idea as in Heb 3:12-14. Paul is denying that salvation has been wrought in those who apostatize.

If you look at all the problems facing the church at Corinth you would easily see they were not keeping in memory that which Paul had preached unto them. However, Paul still addressed them as the church of God, as being sanctified, and called saints. (1 Cor. 1:2)

Had they abandoned the gospel? Certainly not? They were disobedient and immature but we all are. In desperation you are trying to make a text say something it does not say.

So much for those saints who get Alzheimer's or some other serious illness. What do you think about this verse?

"If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself." (2 Tim. 2:13)

Contrary to your view, not all God's saints are faithful.

All God’s saints are faithful. If they are not faithful they are not saints. This is so abundantly obvious from Scripture that it makes me wonder how you can deny it. It is the fifth point of the TULIP. Saints persevere. Obviously someone with Alzheimer’s or a mental condition is a different case. But in that they have not rejected the faith. 2 Tim 2:13 is speaking of the fact that our denials and faithlessness does not change the character of God.

PL: Why does Paul say "we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God" (2 cor 5:18). Christopher: God's people were reconciled to Him when Jesus died on the cross.

To once again show how far you are from the text and how inconsistent you are consider you statement. Paul begs people some thirty years after the cross to be reconciled to God. Then you say they were already reconciled at the cross. I ask about a verse and you totally deny what it says. Talk about useless words of Paul. If everyone was reconciled at the cross then there is no need for the “word/ministry of reconciliation” to be given to us as Paul said it was, there is no need for us to be ambassadors for Christ as Paul said we were, and there is no need to urge people to be reconciled to God. You are ignoring Scripture.

On your types of justification, you might make a case for two types. Scripture combines your types 1 and 2 in Eph 2, where we are saved by grace through faith. You would be very hardpressed to make a distinction from Scripture on these two justifications.

 

[Christopher]

They [Reformed Baptists] tell us that we are justified, not when Christ died for us and satisfied the justice of God, but when we appropriate the work of Christ to ourselves by the instrument of faith.

The Westminster Confession states that "Faith, receiving and resting on Christ and his righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification."

When the Word of God declares that we are justified by faith, it does not make faith a condition or instrument of justification, but the mere recipient. Our justification was accomplished and finished when the Son of God paid our debt and satisfied the justice of God for us at Calvary (Rom. 3:24; 4:25; 5:8-11; Heb. 10:10-14).

Romans 3:24 "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:"

Romans 4:25 "Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification."

Romans 5:8-11 "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. (9) Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. (10) For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. (11) And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement."

Hebrews 10:10-14 "By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (11) And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: (12) But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; (13) From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. (14) For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified." --Don Fortner

I believe Brother Fortner is a Sovereign Grace Baptist, but I always love the truth regardless.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Christopher:
When the Word of God declares that we are justified by faith, it does not make faith a condition or instrument of justification, but the mere recipient.

How is faith a recipient? Was faith alienated from God in unrighteousness? I hardly think so.

Romans 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Romans 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Galatians 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be [/b]justified by faith.[/b]

Brother Don may be a sovereign grace baptist but he missed the boat here. Justification is by faith according to Brother Paul (who was an indepedent Baptist by the way).

To deny justification by faith alone is to deny the explicit statements of Scripture. No one denies that justification was accomplished by Christ in his death. But Scripture is equally clear that there is a necessary component of God-enabled, God-initiated, God-given faith to his elect without which there can be no salvation. The most common verb used with salvation in Scripture is the verb believe. Therefore, I think we ought to stick with it. If someone doesn't believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, then they are not saved and are not justified.

 

[Christopher]

"What is faith, and how does our faith make us righteous? God considers faith righteousness (Rom 4:3). If your faith wavers, have you lost your righteousness? If that is the case, then you have lost your salvation and regained it a thousand times! If your faith has wavered for 30 years, you are no less justified than one whose faith has wavered for 30 seconds. Righteousness does come through faith, but your faith is not your righteousness. Jesus is your righteousness and your faith isn’t what keeps Jesus rightly related to the Father. The moment you put your faith in Jesus’ righteousness, you were forever credited with God’s favorable opinion that you neither earned nor deserved." --Henry Allan Ironside

No one denies that justification was accomplished by Christ in his death. But Scripture is equally clear that there is a necessary component of God-enabled, God-initiated, God-given faith to his elect without which there can be no salvation. --Pastor Larry

So you're saying we were justified at the cross, then, of necessity, we're justified again by believing the Gospel. We're justified by faith in our hearts. This enables us to "have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." (Rom. 5:1) This is our time salvation.

 

[Christopher]

If someone doesn't believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, then they are not saved and are not justified. --Pastor Larry

No one denies that justification was accomplished by Christ in his death. --Pastor Larry

Those two statements seem to contradict each other. Can I please get clarification?

[ April 23, 2002, 06:14 PM: Message edited by: Christopher ]

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Christopher:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />If someone doesn't believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, then they are not saved and are not justified. --Pastor Larry

No one denies that justification was accomplished by Christ in his death. --Pastor Larry

Those two statements seem to contradict each other. Can I please get clarification?</font>[/QUOTE]Sure ... justification accomplished and justification applied are two different things. They are both necessary and sure but distinct.

 

[Christopher]

Sure ... justification accomplished and justification applied are two different things.

Wouldn't this be inconsistant with the Old Testament sacrifices, which were a shadow of Christ's atoning death? Where in the Old Testament did anything have to be done by the people in order to benefit from the sacrifice that was made besides the sacrifice itself? (Not arguing, just questioning.)

 

[Christopher]

What does this mean to you?

"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." (Rom. 5:8-9)

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Christopher:
Wouldn't this be inconsistant with the Old Testament sacrifices, which were a shadow of Christ's atoning death? Where in the Old Testament did anything have to be done by the people in order to benefit from the sacrifice that was made besides the sacrifice itself? (Not arguing, just questioning.)

They had to bring the sacrifice and had to submit in faith to its offering on their behalf. The bringing of the sacrifice was the demonstration of faith. So OT saints were saved by faith just as NT saints were.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Christopher:
What does this mean to you?

"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." (Rom. 5:8-9)

That Christ died for us (in our place or on our behalf) while we were still sinners, thus undeserving. And that his death justified us now, and will save us from eternal wrath. I think the salvation in view is here is the final salvation ready to be revealed in the last time for those who are kept by the power of God through faith (1 Peter 1:7).

I don't think this verse helps your case because it says that we are "now justified." If anything, it implies that we previously were not justified. Which Paul clarifies or expands on later to say that we were justified by faith.

 

[Christopher]

http://www.primitivebaptist.org/writers/crouse%5Fw/chapter%205.asp

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Christopher:
http://www.primitivebaptist.org/writers/crouse%5Fw/chapter%205.asp

I browsed through this article quickly. It is very weak on a number of passages and omits a number more. It assumes its position and then sets out to read every passage in light of that position. Disappointing.