Salvation of Mankind

[Historic Baptist]

Why did the man call Jesus "Lord" if he did not believe Jesus was his Lord? How did he know about Jesus, the kingdom, etc. if he had not previously heard about it?

While you are at it, go ahead and explain the rest of those verses you continue to ignore...

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by pinoybaptist:
The problems with gospel regeneration are manifold, it seems:

First, I reject the term “gospel regeneration.” We are talking about what the Scripture teaches about being born again.

1. It ties down the ability of God to save whom He will to the ability of man to obey the "great commission";

No it doesn’t. When God ordains the ends he ordains the means. The preaching of the gospel to the elect is also a part of God’s plans. God is the one who tied salvation to the message (Rom 10:13; 1 Cor 1:18ff.; 1 Peter 1:21-25). Certainly God can do anything he wants to in whatever manner is consistent with his nature. In Scripture, God has told us how he does things.

2. It ties down the salvation of His people to their ability to hear. What about the deaf ? God has no elect among them ?

You ever hear of sign language??? It is a language of communication with the deaf. This is a ridiculous objection because the gospel can be read, can be explained in a variety of ways to people of all intellects. For those mental incompetents, we can be sure that God judges fairly. You cannot contradict the clear teaching of Scripture by the minute exceptions.

3. Gospel regeneration also ties down His own timetables as to Christ's return and the final judgment to the ability of men to go out and preach the gospel.

Again, a severe misunderstanding of theology. God gives man the ability to go and preach the gospel and where he ordains the ends, he ordains the means.

4. Christ should've exclaimed "It's almost finished" at the cross instead of "It is finished".

Not really, because Christ was referring to the atonement. Sins had been atoned for. However, the fruit of election is clearly worked out in time. In your gospel, there does not seem to be a need for Paul to have told the Philippian jailer to “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.” He should have told him just to rejoice that he was already saved.

The gospel is to bring life and immortality to light, to convert those it reaches to God, but not regenerate them, the two being different.

How is the bringing of life different than regeneration?? By definition, regeneration is being born, hence coming to life and in Scripture it is clearly tied to the message preached.

God's sovereignty cannot be tied down to man's ability to preach the gospel. He has His own in every nation, kindred, tongue, tribe. Jesus purchased and redeemed all that the Father had given Him, past, present, future.

God’s sovereignty is tied only to God’s purposes of himself to act in accordance with his nature and eternal plan. Man’s ability to preach the gospel is a part of this.

At the heart of this discussion is a blatant denial of biblical truth. If you were not saved in response to the preaching of the gospel message then you were not saved.

It pleased God by the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe (1 Cor 1:22).
You were born again … through the word of God (1 Peter 1:22).
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ (Rom 10:17).

You can dispute this all you want but it is clear in Scripture. At this point there is no essential difference between you and Ray. Both have constructed a logical view that fails to take Scripture into account. While you are on totally opposite ends of the spectrum (from blatant arminian to whatever you are – I don’t even want to use the name Calvinist for you), your similarities in methodology are frighteningly similar.

When Scripture speaks, I do not have the option of redefining it so that it can fit my preconceived notion of what ought to be.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Tuor:
Pharoah wan't necessarily a part of the elect. The same could be said of Judas.

Agreed. That wasn't the point. The point was that doing the will of God is not the same as salvation.

The point is that if the gospel is required, then those people who live in areas where the gospel could not possibly be heard couldn't possibily be saved. In other words, if what you say is true, then the Bible is wrong.

People who live in areas where the gospel could not be heard or is not heard cannot possibly be saved. Without a doubt, that is the teaching of Scripture. The Bible is most certainly not wrong about this.

 

[Eladar]

People who live in areas where the gospel could not be heard or is not heard cannot possibly be saved. Without a doubt, that is the teaching of Scripture. The Bible is most certainly not wrong about this.

This is not exactly what the Bible says. This is an implicatation of what the Bible says. What the Bible says is:

Romans 2

5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,

All of our actions have a reason. God has written His truths in our hearts. We may deny them or we may accept them. Why we accept them or deny them isn't the issue(Total Predestination through Total Free Will or somewhere in between), the issue is that what you are saying is limiting God. The final judgement is God's. What you are saying isn't Biblically iron clad.

In other words, I believe you are putting words into God's mouth.

[ April 17, 2002, 10:39 AM: Message edited by: Tuor ]

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Tuor:
This is not exactly what the Bible says. This is an implicatation of what the Bible says. What the Bible says is:

Are you ignoring all the verses I listed above that very clearly teach what I have said? Rom 10 is explicit -- they cannot be saved without belief; they cannot believe with hearing; they cannot hear with a preacher because faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

The Romans 2 passage you are referring to is most likely hypothetical. Because God is impartial, all those who have sufficient works of righteousness will be granted eternal life. Therefore, no one can claim that God is impartial. However, Paul refutes your claim in Rom 3:10-12 where he expressly and explicitly says that no one is seeking God.

the issue is that what you are saying is limiting God. The final judgement is God's. What you are saying isn't Biblically iron clad.

Far to teh contrary, it does seem iron clad based on Scripture. It is true that the final judgment is God's. The question is, Can God judge by a standard other than the standard that he has told us he will judge by? The answer is no; if he did, he would be untruthful and unjust to himself.

In other words, I believe you are putting words into God's mouth.

I have quoted the Word of God. It is up to you to say why that Scripture does not mean what it says.

 

[Eladar]

The Romans 2 passage you are referring to is most likely hypothetical. Because God is impartial, all those who have sufficient works of righteousness will be granted eternal life. Therefore, no one can claim that God is impartial. However, Paul refutes your claim in Rom 3:10-12 where he expressly and explicitly says that no one is seeking God.

If no one seeks God, then what are we doing here? I believe I am seeking God, but since nobody does this, my attempts must be in vain.

 

[Historic Baptist]

Those who refuse to preach the gospel are NOT doing what God wants them to do. Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, told Timothy, "But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry." (II Tim. 4:5)

[ April 17, 2002, 02:57 PM: Message edited by: Historic Baptist ]

 

[Historic Baptist]

Of course, true biblical evangelists are not under a mission board that supplies their needs. God will supply all their needs. By the way, Tynadale1946, I have read ORIGINAL OLD SCHOOL Primitive Baptist writings, and they were NOT anti-missions, but anti-mission board. I share that same belief, but to say that the elect will be saved willy nilly is not only unbiblical but shows some people's disrespect for the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ for which the Apostles gave their life...

Just think of it this way...If it weren't for the Apostles' and the Baptists who came from Whales (Europe) over to America you wouldn't know the truth you do today. The Primitive Baptists came from the Historic Baptists who came from Whales (Europe)....so don't be to quick to put down missionary labor.

[ April 17, 2002, 03:11 PM: Message edited by: Historic Baptist ]

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Tuor:
If no one seeks God, then what are we doing here? I believe I am seeking God, but since nobody does this, my attempts must be in vain.

I wish you would get in the habit of reading contextually, both Scripture and my posts. You take so many things out of context and end up with crazy statements. Romans 3 is talking about the natural man -- those who are in sin. You are seeking God because God has unilaterally given you the will and desire to seek him. Your seeking is the fruit of regeneration in your life.

 

[Sularis]

Creation testifies to God's nature

Creation is also the Word of God

 

[Eladar]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
I wish you would get in the habit of reading contextually, both Scripture and my posts. You take so many things out of context and end up with crazy statements. Romans 3 is talking about the natural man -- those who are in sin. You are seeking God because God has unilaterally given you the will and desire to seek him. Your seeking is the fruit of regeneration in your life.

Larry, why does God need anything to make someone want to seek Him out? Why couldn't God give that desire to someone who lives in a region where the Bible does not exist?

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Tuor:
[Larry, why does God need anything to make someone want to seek Him out?

God doesn't "need" anything. Man is the one who needs something because sin has so affected man so as to turn him completely against God.

Why couldn't God give that desire to someone who lives in a region where the Bible does not exist?

He could ... but it is contrary to what he said he would do.

 

[Eladar]

So you are saying the message of the Bible brings the desire to follow God. It 'turns on' the desire in a certain way.

 

[Historic Baptist]

"Why couldn't God give that desire to someone who lives in a region where the Bible does not exist?" --Tuor

God could do all things, but is there any scriptural precedant for God doing such a thing? Look at your own experience...were you seeking God before you herad the gospel? Did you wake up one day and say, "I think I'll start seeking after God today?" No, of course not! Look at what Paul the apostle said:

[Rom. 10:14] How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Sometimes if you dare to take scripture at face value, you'll find answers. Paul just cleared up this whole argument in one sentence: "How shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?"

"So you are saying the message of the Bible brings the desire to follow God. It 'turns on' the desire in a certain way." --Tuor

Nobody here is teaching gospel regeneration. A man could sit under the most eloquent preacher of all time and not be phased one bit by the preaching. If there is not Spirit to draw, there is no conversion. I'm sure Pastor Larry also agrees on that point. How does God then call His people?

[II Thess. 2:14] Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Peopl cannot put their trust in someone of whom they have not heard. Paul the apostle has so clearly stated this fact. Peopl don't wake up one day and believe that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God without ever hearing the gospel. Like I said, look at your own experience.

[I Pet. 1:23] Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Christians are born of the Spirit by [means of] the word of God, for it is the gospel that brings to the realization one's guilt before a holy and just God. The Spirit enables us to believe the gospel. The written gospel itself is not sufficient for salvation, and no one here is teaching this. Otherwise, we would not know we were sinners and in need of a Savior were it not for the written word of God telling us so.

[ April 17, 2002, 11:44 PM: Message edited by: Historic Baptist ]

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Tuor:
So you are saying the message of the Bible brings the desire to follow God. It 'turns on' the desire in a certain way.

No.

God is the one who gives understanding and a desire to seek him. The message is what tells people what to believe and what to do.

 

[Eladar]

If what you are saying is true, then it is impossible for a person to actually seek out God on his own. The statment about being able to is a lie. The statement that some Gentiles showing that they have God's laws written on their hearts is a lie.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Tuor:
If what you are saying is true, then it is impossible for a person to actually seek out God on his own. The statment about being able to is a lie. The statement that some Gentiles showing that they have God's laws written on their hearts is a lie.

It is impossible for unaided man to seek out God on his own. That is clear from Scripture. That does not mean that the second statement is a lie. The second statement (God's laws written on the hearts) refers to the conscience. Every person has a conscience and instinctively knows the difference between right and wrong. This is because of the innate knowledge of God (Rom 1:18ff) mediated through the conscience of man because of the image of God in man.

So in short, while everyone instinctively knows that there is a God and by nature do things that are a part of the law of God (i.e., condemn stealing, murder, etc.), that does not equate to finding God on their own or apart from the propositional message of God.

 

[Historic Baptist]

"There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." [Romans 3:11]

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." [John 6:44]

"And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." [John 6:65]

The written gospel is the good news of what Jesus has done. It is where we find our beliefs and where we first learn of our need of a Savior because of our sin. No conviction, no conversion! You cannot get under conviction without first knowing you're a sinner. You find out you're a sinner by reading/hearing the word of God, the 1611 King James Bible [That is, if you are speaking English]. You would be in a mess if it were not for the written word.

 

[Christopher]

The Gospel - its Function, Purpose, and Utility

Opening Text: 2nd Tim. 1:10 – "But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality TO LIGHT through the gospel."

Please observe that Jesus Christ has already abolished death and has already brought life and immortality. This is a completed fact, and will stand forever, whether The Gospel (Good News Story about it) is ever preached or not.

The Gospel has never created anything, but has located many wonderful things that already existed. The Gospel is like a light switch, once turned on, will illuminate, radiate, magnify, and amplify, whatever is already existing, just as the furniture in a room. The Light does not bring about the existence of the furniture, but does bring such to your knowledge and attention.

Gospel Function:

Not to Create, but to Locate, Educate, Cultivate,(Timely), the (Eternal) Regenerate. A Geiger-Counter does not CREATE, but LOCATES Uranium, if there be such to start with. One thing that must be established in this writing, up-front, is that The Gospel does NOT create, give new life, naturally or spiritually, in any form, degree, or intensity. The Gospel is NOT the MEANS, nor does it even ASSIST, whatsoever, to the smallest micro-degree, concerning the requirements needed to obtain Eternal Salvation or Eternal Life. Only a small fraction, a Remnant only, will ever have the opportunity to even hear The Gospel on the Time-Side of Eternity. Then only a small fraction of this Remnant will response positively and favorably to such, even after hearing it. If The Gospel was designed as the MEANS or to ASSIST in Eternal Salvation and Eternal Life, then the person would have more power than God. God would be anxiously waiting and hoping for your positive response of acceptance, and would be powerless, until your decision. The contingency and finality of who all will be saved in Heaven, will be unknown, even to God, until the last moment of time. The Sovereign God would be totally and timely perplexed until all votes are counted and believer's decisions were in.

How sad this would be. God who designed, created, arranged, purposed and set in action all such creativity, would be helpless until all the human-decisions were tabulated. The Creation, therefore, would have more authority than the Creator.

The vast majority of God's Elect Children (uncounted millions) will be, timely, in the broad way and wide gate, where many go in thereat. Most all the Old Testament characters would not even have a chance, since the N.T. Gospel of Jesus Christ was not distributed to them.

There is a Calvinistic Idea, even the Landmarkers, Puritans, and some other groups, including a few, here and there, even wearing the name of Primitive Baptist, that believe, or imply, The Gospel is the MEANS, or at least, ASSISTS in the eternal salvation of sinners. They do limit the salvation to only the Elect, and not the entire universal Adamic human world. However, they do, advocate, that ALL THE ELECT will absolutely have the opportunity to, and access to The Gospel, and will ALL respond positively and obediently to the free offer of The Gospel. If they reject and refuse the message, then they were not an Elect in the first place.

The "seed" of this initially comes from John Calvin's Five-Points:

1. Total Depravity,
2. Unconditional Election
3. Limited or Particular Atonement
4. Irresistible Grace in The New Birth
5. The Final Perseverance of the Elect.

Let us examine. First, correctly so, the entire humanity fell in Adam, totally into sin and death. Next, the Eternal Covenant of Election marks out those so chosen of God. Thirdly then, the blood of Jesus Christ covers all these Elect in redemption and atonement, and THE GOSPEL will be offered, accessible and available to ALL these elect, who WILL (must) respond in the affirmative. Lastly these ALL will OVERCOME (persevere) and not just be preserved, in Jesus Christ. This is a sick doctrine. The most dangerous doctrines in vogue are those "very close to the exact Truth." They "look good" on the surface, until more deeply examined.

Further, we study this. It is The Gospel, as the MEANS, that brings the blood of Christ to THE ELECT, or at least, ASSISTS in The New Birth, which is the applying of His Blood to each Elect. This doctrine is very subtle, perpetrated with considerable finesse, diplomacy and tact. It is insidious and "sneaks up on you." Maybe 99 % is up the Sovereignty of God, but the last 01 % is dependent upon the person surrendering to The Gospel plea. This is disguised Arminianism.

Don't be fooled by "fool's gold," which in reality is Iron-Pyrite, and gold whatsoever. It just "sort-of" looks like real gold. Now, let us consider the TRUE GOLD – The Truth of The Gospel. Yes, first, we are all totally depraved in Adam's Fall. Next, the Eternal Covenant, with Divine Love ELECTED the host of God's Choice, Pleasure, Purpose and Will. The Justice of God demanded satisfaction; thereby bringing into activity the Execution of God The Father's Will, and The Son, FINISHED that required work on Calvary's Cross, by one offering forever… Then, by the Work of the Holy Spirit, The Voice of The Son of God, applies His Blood, at the respective and appointed hour of each Elect. Note: if it takes the Voice of the Preacher in the New Birth/Regeneration, then, we will need Preacher's Voices in all the cemeteries, on the last day of time, at the Resurrection of the Bodies, also.

Now, the Blood of Christ, is the only entity that will give the New Birth and its lasting consequences of PRESERVATION, even though the majority will never Persevere. There is quite a difference between Preservation, which embraces ALL Elect, and the Remnant which only Persevere, Timely. I have not quoted any scriptures in this writing except the opening text.

If you are sincerely desiring to have more confirmation of the points of this writing, then write me, and i'll supply you will many scriptures and analysis pertaining thereunto.

Another reason, I have not quoted any scriptures in this writing is because, I challenge any advocate of this Gospel-Regeneration Theory or this Gospel-Assisted Regeneration Theory to open discussion over an open bible, publicly or privately, through the mail or the internet. hulbass@thrifty.net

The Gospel is a wonderful tool-kit designed for information, education, understanding, enlightenment, knowledge, comfort, nourishment, attainment, sustenance, maintenance, strength, courage, joy, security and life in great abundance. However the wonderful Gospel of the Finished Work of The Lord Jesus Christ, has never and will never, give one micro-grain of Divine Eternal Life or Eternal Salvation to one little trembling Child of The King, who as in The Eternal Covenant before The Time World Began, Loved, Elected (Chose) and Adopted all His Family in Christ Jesus, and wrote all their names in The Lamb's Book of Life, and sealed it with seven seals, and no man has ever yet looked thereon, save the Lion of the Tribe of Juda, the Root of David, who was worthy to open the book and open the seals thereof; for He was slain and redeemed us to God, by His Blood, out of every kindred, tongue, people and nation. He did not need, use nor design any tool, vehicle or instrument to assist or cooperate, in any way, nor to any decree of intensity, from the slightest to the greatest, including the Gospel, to accomplish His authorship or ffinishing of Eternal Salvation and Life. Incidentally, He did not need, use nor require any assistance or help whatsoever, from or by any other entity in the universe, whether at home or abroad.

He BY HIMSELF purged all The Elect from their sins, by His one perfect offering on Calvary's Cross, then tended to the other chores of final Eternal Salvation to the complete pleasure and satisfaction of His Father.

Yes, The Preached Gospel is wonderful. It is my Timely Meat and Drink. It is my Timely Joy and Full Happiness, while I look for and wait for that Blessed Hope and Coming of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. It is My Rest from any Eternal "Works-System."

If there be any "Gospel Means or Assistance" whatsoever, it certainly is not related nor associated with acquiring, or coming into possession of Eternal Salvation.

Hulan F. Bass (elder)

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Christopher:
If there be any "Gospel Means or Assistance" whatsoever, it certainly is not related nor associated with acquiring, or coming into possession of Eternal Salvation.

Hulan F. Bass (elder)

"Elder" does not help your position when you do not address the relevant Scriptures. There are many Scriptures that expressly refute your contentions contained herein. Your position is inherently unbiblical because it denies the expressly written truth of God. While you believe the gospel message is unnecessary to salvation, Scripture disagrees with you. Seeing the communicated message of the gospel as necessary for salvation does not in anyway compromise the sufficiency or finality of Christ's atonement. Where God speaks, we do not have the option of disagreeing with him. When he said he was pleased by the foolishness of the message preached to save the ones who believe, we should accept that. When he siad that apart from the word of Christ, faith and salvation are impossible, we should accept that. As an elder, you have a tremendous weight of responsibility placed on your as your pastor your church and minister the word. You will be judged by a higher standard. Therefore, be careful to preach the truth so that you will not be held responsible for not only your own false belief but also those whom you lead down the wrong path.