Descended into hell

What do these two verses refer to? Who or what makes up the captivity?

(Psalms 68:18) Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.

(Ephesians 4:8) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

 

This statement betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of salvation.

Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

To say that sin only results in physical death is ludicrous. The logical conclusion of this is that no Christian to date has really been saved.

Our sins make us fit for hell.

The wages of sin is death. You cannot separate hell from death.</font>[/QUOTE]Aaron, I think your post betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of what I was saying!

ANY kind of death is a consequence of sin. It is not a punishment. If it were, then everyone who dies is being punished!

Physical death is a consequence. I don't see it as a punishment because I for sure do not want to continue any longer than God would have me continue in a body that is frequently in pain and somewhat regularly falling apart.

Spiritual death is a consequence of sin because it separates us from God.

And as much as that may hurt, it is not a punishment, it is a consequence.

Wages are earned. They are thus consequential to the work done under the contract made.

Rewards and punishments are separate. They are, when given, in addition to that which is earned.

Our sins earned death. It's a one/two punch. Now I know Jesus has saved me from my sins. But I also know I am going to die at some time if not raptured first. I do not see death as a punishment for sins already forgiven and taken care of! It is the doorway to an eternity with my Lord. There is no punishment in that!

Our rejection of Christ results, however, in punishment from God -- hell.

Two different things for two different causes.

 

I want to know where the Bible states that hell renders one spiritually dead.

 

Spiritual death is being separated from God, not being spiritually unconscious.

In John 17:4, Jesus defines eternal life as knowing the Father and the Son. This is not simply knowing OF, but knowing, in a deep, intimate sense. Thus, eternal death is not having that relationship, or being separate from God.

Thus hell is the final result of spiritual death if one is not born again in Christ.

 

Jesus meant that they would be spared from the eternal separation from God which He experienced briefly on the cross.

...and Helen, amen

 

Travelsong and Helen,

Thank you for clarifying the issues here. I still think the missing thought that Aaron does not get is that, just in Old Testament times a blood sacrifice is what was required under the "law" to sanctify a person. Today, under grace, much the same, we accept the blood sacrifice God made on the cross. The blood sacrifice (which includes physical death only)is adequate to wash our garments and make them white as snow. There is no more ultimate sacrifice than God becoming man and dying for us, while his father turns his back on him as the sins of the world are atoned.

1PETER 2:24 "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness....etc."

Hebrews 2:14 "Forasmuch then as children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is the devil;" 15 "And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage."

 

We would have been had Jesus not died for us, Aaron. But -- and I know we differ radically here -- although we are born with sin natures, we are not held accountable for sins committed until the law is known. That is not to say we do not sin before that, but that our sins are covered by the sacrifice of Jesus, who DOES know all our sins, and died to atone for all of them, both intentional and unintentional. Therefore, although we are born TO BE separated as a consequence of willful sins, as Jesus stated so plainly, the angels of the little ones always see the face of the Father in heaven. And that means those little ones are not yet separated from the Father. They are not without sin nature and later not without sin, both of which would certaily qualify them, and all of us, for hell had Jesus not atoned for all those sins by the sacrifice of Himself. But as it is, they are covered by that sacrifice and thus still not separated from God.

There is a distinction made by God in the Exodus account between those who are adults and those who are not. There is a distinction made by Jesus in Matthew 25 regarding those who do certain things and those who do not. No child is capable of doing any of those things.

There is NEVER any similar distinction regarding classes of children in the Bible. And yet, despite what Jesus said, some make a preemptory distinction between the 'elect' babies and the 'nonelect' babies.

But the Bible never indicates we are born spiritually dead; only that it is the inevitable result of willful sinning.

So to say that men have been separated from God since the Fall is true for MEN (and WOMEN), but not true for children or babies, because of Jesus. Not because of their lack of sin nature or sin, but because of Jesus.

 

Got into this one late didn't read a couple of pages.Did anyone quote Mat 12:40
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
As for it being hell,at that time,it would have been Abraham's bosom,I think.Hades,part paradise,part eternal punishment

 

Separation from the Father.

 

Separation from God IS spiritual death.

Every created thing owes it's very existence to God whether it chooses to ackowledge that fact or not. When one is finally cut off from all of the graces that God gives, then one is in the final state of spiritual death. Jesus is the only man to have ever experienced that, and He experienced it on the cross, not in hell.

 

I'm not to learned on this subject myself.It does say that He preached to the souls in hell.So if He was preaching I don't think He would be in a lot of pain at the time.Also if He is not justified He would have to go into the lake of fire,it seems to me anyway.Sin,when it is finished bringeth forth death.We know that death & hell are cast into the lake of fire,& Christ became sin for us.I believe He paid for our sins on the Cross but you all know a lot more about this than I do so I can't argue the point