Descended into hell

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Helen:
I read that Jesus tasted death for us; I do not read that He was punished by the Father for us.

Death is not a punishment. Death is a consequence of sin.

This statement betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of salvation.

Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

To say that sin only results in physical death is ludicrous. The logical conclusion of this is that no Christian to date has really been saved.

Our sins make us fit for hell.

The wages of sin is death. You cannot separate hell from death.

 

[firedome]

What do these two verses refer to? Who or what makes up the captivity?

(Psalms 68:18) Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.

(Ephesians 4:8) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

 

[Helen]

Originally posted by Aaron:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Helen:
I read that Jesus tasted death for us; I do not read that He was punished by the Father for us.

Death is not a punishment. Death is a consequence of sin.

This statement betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of salvation.

Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

To say that sin only results in physical death is ludicrous. The logical conclusion of this is that no Christian to date has really been saved.

Our sins make us fit for hell.

The wages of sin is death. You cannot separate hell from death.</font>[/QUOTE]Aaron, I think your post betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of what I was saying!

ANY kind of death is a consequence of sin. It is not a punishment. If it were, then everyone who dies is being punished!

Physical death is a consequence. I don't see it as a punishment because I for sure do not want to continue any longer than God would have me continue in a body that is frequently in pain and somewhat regularly falling apart.

Spiritual death is a consequence of sin because it separates us from God.

And as much as that may hurt, it is not a punishment, it is a consequence.

Wages are earned. They are thus consequential to the work done under the contract made.

Rewards and punishments are separate. They are, when given, in addition to that which is earned.

Our sins earned death. It's a one/two punch. Now I know Jesus has saved me from my sins. But I also know I am going to die at some time if not raptured first. I do not see death as a punishment for sins already forgiven and taken care of! It is the doorway to an eternity with my Lord. There is no punishment in that!

Our rejection of Christ results, however, in punishment from God -- hell.

Two different things for two different causes.

 

[Travelsong]

I want to know where the Bible states that hell renders one spiritually dead.

 

[Helen]

Spiritual death is being separated from God, not being spiritually unconscious.

In John 17:4, Jesus defines eternal life as knowing the Father and the Son. This is not simply knowing OF, but knowing, in a deep, intimate sense. Thus, eternal death is not having that relationship, or being separate from God.

Thus hell is the final result of spiritual death if one is not born again in Christ.

 

[Aaron]

When Jesus said those who believe in Him shall never die, what did He mean?

 

[Travelsong]

Jesus meant that they would be spared from the eternal separation from God which He experienced briefly on the cross.

...and Helen, amen

 

[Aaron]

Well, let's be a little more specific. Men have already been separated from God since the Fall.

It means they will have no part in the Second Death.

That's what it means.

The Cross does not save me from physical death--obviously. It saves me from my sin and all the wages thereof. From true death and the pains thereof.

 

[Phillip]

Travelsong and Helen,

Thank you for clarifying the issues here. I still think the missing thought that Aaron does not get is that, just in Old Testament times a blood sacrifice is what was required under the "law" to sanctify a person. Today, under grace, much the same, we accept the blood sacrifice God made on the cross. The blood sacrifice (which includes physical death only)is adequate to wash our garments and make them white as snow. There is no more ultimate sacrifice than God becoming man and dying for us, while his father turns his back on him as the sins of the world are atoned.

1PETER 2:24 "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness....etc."

Hebrews 2:14 "Forasmuch then as children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is the devil;" 15 "And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage."

 

[Helen]

Originally posted by Aaron:
Well, let's be a little more specific. Men have already been separated from God since the Fall.

We would have been had Jesus not died for us, Aaron. But -- and I know we differ radically here -- although we are born with sin natures, we are not held accountable for sins committed until the law is known. That is not to say we do not sin before that, but that our sins are covered by the sacrifice of Jesus, who DOES know all our sins, and died to atone for all of them, both intentional and unintentional. Therefore, although we are born TO BE separated as a consequence of willful sins, as Jesus stated so plainly, the angels of the little ones always see the face of the Father in heaven. And that means those little ones are not yet separated from the Father. They are not without sin nature and later not without sin, both of which would certaily qualify them, and all of us, for hell had Jesus not atoned for all those sins by the sacrifice of Himself. But as it is, they are covered by that sacrifice and thus still not separated from God.

There is a distinction made by God in the Exodus account between those who are adults and those who are not. There is a distinction made by Jesus in Matthew 25 regarding those who do certain things and those who do not. No child is capable of doing any of those things.

There is NEVER any similar distinction regarding classes of children in the Bible. And yet, despite what Jesus said, some make a preemptory distinction between the 'elect' babies and the 'nonelect' babies.

But the Bible never indicates we are born spiritually dead; only that it is the inevitable result of willful sinning.

So to say that men have been separated from God since the Fall is true for MEN (and WOMEN), but not true for children or babies, because of Jesus. Not because of their lack of sin nature or sin, but because of Jesus.

 

[rsr]

Aaron said:

Well, let's be a little more specific. Men have already been separated from God since the Fall.

Yes, but God has still spoken to man through nature, the prophets and the law. Though separated, God has made his presence known.

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

Romans 1:18-23, English Standard Version

Although we have been separated from God, we have still enjoyed the gift of his common grace.

 

[Aaron]

More than one has alluded to OT sacrifice as evidence that Christ did not have to descend into hell.

The lessons contained in the sacrifices are spiritual truths. No one-to-one correspondence exists between the bodies of these animals and the the body of Christ. It is not the physical blood of Christ that heals us. We do not drink His physical blood and eat His physical flesh, Jn. 6:53-55.

[ November 16, 2002, 11:03 PM: Message edited by: Aaron ]

 

[wingtrap]

Got into this one late didn't read a couple of pages.Did anyone quote Mat 12:40
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
As for it being hell,at that time,it would have been Abraham's bosom,I think.Hades,part paradise,part eternal punishment

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Aaron:
[*]The argument that Christ did not descend into hell renders Him effeminate. Of what was Christ afraid when He sweat great drops of blood in the Garden? Mere physical torture and death? Not when men of lesser resolve and character bravely faced tortures more exquisite. It was only the fiery indignation and righteous judgment of God that could shake such an One as Christ.

We've hashed the wages of sin. Now focus on this point. Reading About Face by Colonel David Hackworth sparked this idea. I was elated to see that it was shared by Calvin.

Hackworth spoke of men with filthy mouths and hearts (my description, not his) who walked bravely into a hail of machine-gun fire and other horrors of war.

None of them sweat great drops of blood before going into combat.

Men of all creeds in all ages have faced unspeakable tortures. Despite popular notions, crucifixion is not the worst ever devised by men. Many of them faced these things bravely.

Of what was Christ afraid?

 

[Travelsong]

Separation from the Father.

 

[rsr]

Aaron, do you share Calvin's interpretation? (I think it accounts for just about everything.)

Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

II Corinthians 5:20-21, English Standard Version

Stephen

[ November 17, 2002, 09:08 PM: Message edited by: rsr ]

 

[Aaron]

rsr,

Check your PM's .

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Travelsong:
Separation from the Father.

So, it was separation anxiety that caused Him to sweat great drops of blood?

Sidebar: do you believe hell is mere separation from God, or do you believe that there is torment to aggravate the separation?

I don't believe we are separated from God in hell at all. Quite the contrary. We eternally exist in the presence of His fiery indignation and righteous judgment.

If that don't get your knees knockin', nuthin' will.

 

[Travelsong]

Separation from God IS spiritual death.

Every created thing owes it's very existence to God whether it chooses to ackowledge that fact or not. When one is finally cut off from all of the graces that God gives, then one is in the final state of spiritual death. Jesus is the only man to have ever experienced that, and He experienced it on the cross, not in hell.

 

[Wayne]

I'm not to learned on this subject myself.It does say that He preached to the souls in hell.So if He was preaching I don't think He would be in a lot of pain at the time.Also if He is not justified He would have to go into the lake of fire,it seems to me anyway.Sin,when it is finished bringeth forth death.We know that death & hell are cast into the lake of fire,& Christ became sin for us.I believe He paid for our sins on the Cross but you all know a lot more about this than I do so I can't argue the point