Give Me liberty, Or Give Me Justice.

ForumChaplain · Sep 1, 2002

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
Frankly, I am amazed how consistently and constantly Calvinism is either misrepresented by those who are ignorant of it or else lied about by those that know better. Calvinists believe that a person must repent, believe, and live a life of holiness. I think non-Calvinists believe the same.

The issue is whether God grants this to an individual so that salvation is 100% the work of God(Calvinism), or this is something the individual can do so that salvation is less than 100% the work of God as there is some percentage of the work that is performed by the person by his fallen will(non-Calvinism).

Frankly, I am finding the efforts by non-Calvinists on this board to be nothing more than prooftexting and pitiful prooftexting at that. But I guess that is to be expected as non-Calvinists are arguing against Biblical teaching.

Christian regards,

Ken
A Spurgeonite

To say that a gift that God offers is not 100% a gift that he gave because one must receive it is what i call true Calvinism.

If I offer you a gift, is it any less of me based on wheither you accept it or not. Logic out the window..

What you call biblical teaching, i call biblical twisting. If this is not true, show me efficacious grace in the hands of a just God. Drop this eg. stuff if you want sound biblical teaching....

ScottEmerson · Sep 2, 2002

Originally posted by Chappie:
2)Romans 12:3
3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

2) The book of Romans was written to Christians to whom God had graciously granted faith, not to unbelievers. Therefore, your point is still false. Care to try again?

Doesn't matter who the Bible was addressed to. Every man is every man - Paul doesn't say all of you. (Sigh... Here we go again...)

Primitive Baptist · Sep 2, 2002

Give Me Liberty, or Give Me Justice
Give me freewill, or show me how God is just in creating one for heaven, and another for hell.

"Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?" (Rom. 9:22)

Read the entire chapter. You can't misunderstand it unless somebody helps you! You're not searching for knowledge; you want somebody to agree with you.

If you'd rather have free will than free grace, I don't what to do but leave such in the hands of a sovereign God.

russell55 · Sep 2, 2002

Every man is every man - Paul doesn't say all of you. (Sigh... Here we go again...)

Paul says "to every one being among you... to each God has given a measure of faith."

In context this is refering to the faith required to exercise spiritual gifts.

ScottEmerson · Sep 2, 2002

Originally posted by russell55:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Every man is every man - Paul doesn't say all of you. (Sigh... Here we go again...)

Paul says "to every one being among you... to each God has given a measure of faith."

In context this is refering to the faith required to exercise spiritual gifts.[/QUOTE]3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Two different parts. Grace was given to every man that is among them. Such a limiting "among you" is not found in the second part - because all men have the measure of faith. Two different groups.

russell55 · Sep 2, 2002

Two different parts. Grace was given to every man that is among them. Such a limiting "among you" is not found in the second part - because all men have the measure of faith. Two different groups.

One verse, two completely separate contexts?

And we know that the modifying "among you" doesn't carry through to the second "everyone" because we know that God gives every person in the world a measure of faith? Isn't that a classic example of begging the question?

Anyway, why isn't this "measure of faith" the "proportion of faith" used to exercise particular spiritual gifts? See verse 6.

ForumChaplain · Sep 2, 2002

Originally posted by Primitive Baptist:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Give Me Liberty, or Give Me Justice
Give me freewill, or show me how God is just in creating one for heaven, and another for hell.

"Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?" (Rom. 9:22)

Read the entire chapter. You can't misunderstand it unless somebody helps you! You're not searching for knowledge; you want somebody to agree with you.

If you'd rather have free will than free grace, I don't what to do but leave such in the hands of a sovereign God.[/QUOTE]Yes sir,
The potter does have power over the clay. Perhaps if you understood this simple verse you would be ready to move on to the rest of the chapter. It has absolutely, positively nothing to do with salvation.

It is speaking of the status in this life that we are created into by God. Out of one lump of clay, God creates a king, a queen, or a president: Out of the same lump, he creates a beggar, a slave, or a poor person. Yet all are created with the God given right to praise their creator. On what authority do you extend it to include salvation?

Now I answered your scripture, please reconcile your scripture with my scripture.
Isa 1:18-20
18Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. 19If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: 20But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

What does God mean, come let us reason together? What does he mean, “ if ye be willing and obedient”. Is God unaware of whither he has mandated obedience (honor) or disobedience? (Dishonor)

What does he mean, “But if ye refuse”? ((((( WHAT IS HE TALKING ABOUT? REFUSE GOD!!!!! ))))) There ain’t no refusing under efficacious grace. Pssst.. God must have forgot that he graced them..

I already have freewill in election, God has granted me a say in where I would spend my personal eternity. And even if I end up in hell, I will praise him for the opportunity that he gave. I will praise him for the opportunity that Christ’s death afforded me. From the fiery depths of hell, I will know just how much he loved me. But if Christ’s words are true in Romans 10:9/10. If he truly means; “whosoever will”, and has not predestinated me out of heaven; then I will spend my eternity with him.

Yet my concerns with efficacious grace are not about me. It is with the eternal destiny of all those that God has called me to love. By the billions, under efficacious grace; they are headed to eternal torment without ever having a chance (just a small chance would suffice) to be with God.

What do you preach on Sunday mornings? How does it feel, preaching diligently every Sunday, knowing that nothing that you say has any salvific value?

Do you preach all the truth, do you tell them; that some (if not all) of them are headed to hell no matter what. Do you teach them to pray useless un-heard prayers because God has already made up his mind about everything way back in eternity past? Do you pray for those that are lost, knowing even while you are praying that they all are going to hell any way?

Do you preach eg with all it’s ramifications? Do you tell them that their burning in hell for eternity glorifies your God? Please tell me that I got it all wrong. That instead of burning for eternity, your god mercifully destroys them after their debt is paid.

Do you preach that God is not a respecter of persons, and that every man will be judged according to their deeds? Or do you tell them that God has plucked out a few to lavish glory and honour and salvation on. Do you tell them that you know that this is an unjust concept, but you will leave it to God to work out the details?

When Christ preached in hell, do you suppose that his sermon was “The Potter and The Clay? Did he tell them that God created them for hell? And that they do not even have the right to ask why.

Freewill and efficacious grace means nothing to me personally. Neither glorifies me. Whether you believe me or not, has not been left in my hands. Many disbelieved Christ, The Son of God. What right or expectation should I have that you should believe me. I have done as my father has commanded me do,

Choose ye this day whom you will serve: A god that creates and burns his creation for his own glory. Or a God that holds precious in his sight every single soul that he ever created. It is not the will of God that any should perish; yet you have him tormenting & burning for his glory.

Please, I beg of you, do not take this personal: As I have not spoken in respect to you. I have spoken only in respect of the ramifications of efficacious grace.

We are judged in respect to the choices that we make in life, not the position that we were born into. Slave or king, positions of honour or dishonor; we all have the Christ given right to praise God.

[ September 02, 2002, 01:59 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]

ForumChaplain · Sep 2, 2002

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Chappie:
2)Romans 12:3
3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

2) The book of Romans was written to Christians to whom God had graciously granted faith, not to unbelievers. Therefore, your point is still false. Care to try again?

Doesn't matter who the Bible was addressed to. Every man is every man - Paul doesn't say all of you. (Sigh... Here we go again...)[/QUOTE]"The book of Romans was written to Christians to whom God had graciously granted faith, not to unbelievers. Therefore, your point is still false. Care to try again"

The Chap man did not say that......

ScottEmerson · Sep 2, 2002

Originally posted by Chappie:
The book of Romans was written to Christians to whom God had graciously granted faith, not to unbelievers. Therefore, your point is still false. Care to try again"

The Chap man did not say that......[/QB]

I know - I got my quotes mixed up.

KenH · Sep 2, 2002

Chappie,

It continues to be evident from what you have written that you do not understand what we Calvinists are teaching. You are making arguments against a strawman of your or someone else's creation.

Let me, one more time, reiterate:

1) Calvinism does not teach that God arbitrarily consigns anyone to hell. People go to hell because of sin - their own personal sin.

2) Calvinism teaches that anyone who is saved must be born again.

3) Calvinism teaches that anyone who is saved must repent of their sins and believe in the Son of God, Christ Jesus.

4) Calvinism teaches that anyone who is saved must exhibit the fruit of the Holy Spirit in his life.

5) Calvinism teaches that all of the credit for a person's salvation belongs to God - from beginning on earth to ending in heaven - as it is God who preserves His people.

Now, tell me, with which of the above 5 statements do you disagree with me on. I am not interested in what you think you may know about Calvinism, or with what someone else may have prejudiced your mind against the doctrines of God's grace. I want to know with which of the above 5 statements do you disagree with me on.

Christian regards,

Ken
A Spurgeonite

ForumChaplain · Sep 2, 2002

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
Chappie,

It continues to be evident from what you have written that you do not understand what we Calvinists are teaching. You are making arguments against a strawman of your or someone else's creation.

Let me, one more time, reiterate:

1) Calvinism does not teach that God arbitrarily consigns anyone to hell. People go to hell because of sin - their own personal sin.

2) Calvinism teaches that anyone who is saved must be born again.

3) Calvinism teaches that anyone who is saved must repent of their sins and believe in the Son of God, Christ Jesus.

4) Calvinism teaches that anyone who is saved must exhibit the fruit of the Holy Spirit in his life.

5) Calvinism teaches that all of the credit for a person's salvation belongs to God - from beginning on earth to ending in heaven - as it is God who preserves His people.

Now, tell me, with which of the above 5 statements do you disagree with me on. I am not interested in what you think you may know about Calvinism, or with what someone else may have prejudiced your mind against the doctrines of God's grace. I want to know with which of the above 5 statements do you disagree with me on.

Christian regards,

Ken
A Spurgeonite

Gosh Ken:
Seems to me that i owe Calvin an apology. I see no evidence of efficacious grace in your five points.

My problem has always been with efficacious/irrestible grace; as it relieves some of the consequences of their actions and rewards them while holding others eternally responsible, and binds them in eternal torment. An unjust consequence when applied to a just God.

But if all is as you say, i owe at least you an apology. Yet there are many proclaiming to be a Calvinsit that advocate exactly as i have stated. To those I owe no apology.

My Final Point.
I am not now, nor ever have I been prejudiced against God's grace. Man, I love that stuff. But some of this grace that is attributed to God is not of god...

[ September 02, 2002, 05:13 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]

KenH · Sep 2, 2002

Originally posted by Chappie:
My problem has always been with efficacious/irrestible grace; as it relieves some of the consequences of their actions and rewards them while holding others eternally responsible, and binds them in eternal torment.

There is no Biblical doctrine that relieves man of the moral responsibility of his actions - whether saved or not. If that is what Calvinism taught(or any other theological system such as universalism), then I would fling it far, far away from me. But that is not what Calvinism teaches.

Christian regards,

Ken
A Spurgeonite

[ September 02, 2002, 05:31 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

grateful4grace · Sep 2, 2002

Originally posted by Chappie:
What you want to believe is that man is so depraved and dead to God that the Holy Spirit (power of god) is unable to reach him.

Precisely what you yourself believe.... That the Holy Spirit is incapable or reaching someone... unless of course they reach themselves first, raise themsevles to life FIRST, and hence stand in no need of the very thing which the Holy Spirit was to do for them.

G4G

ScottEmerson · Sep 2, 2002

Originally posted by grateful4grace:
Precisely what you yourself believe.... That the Holy Spirit is incapable or reaching someone... unless of course they reach themselves first, raise themsevles to life FIRST, and hence stand in no need of the very thing which the Holy Spirit was to do for them.
/QUOTE]

You're misrepresenting the Arminian position. Please do more reading before making asinine statements like that.

ForumChaplain · Sep 2, 2002

Originally posted by grateful4grace:
Originally posted by Chappie:
What you want to believe is that man is so depraved and dead to God that the Holy Spirit (power of god) is unable to reach him.

Precisely what you yourself believe.... That the Holy Spirit is incapable or reaching someone... unless of course they reach themselves first, raise themsevles to life FIRST, and hence stand in no need of the very thing which the Holy Spirit was to do for them.

G4G

Wow!!! I didn't know that I believed that. Son of a gun.... Shiver me timbers.

Permission to change beliefs... Sir.(USMC)

I now believe that the holy Spirit can and does reach everyone. I believe that the Holy Spirit draws everyone. Some are not patient and willing to be longsuffering towards the promises of God. They want it all, Now!!! So in favor of the pleasures of this world they reject the calling of God's spirit.

They hear about heaven and all that it has to offer, but those nights with Ms. Jones are just tooooo gooooood to pass up. They choose to lie, cheat, and steal that they may have it now,,, Don't want to wait till later..

I think that is what i believed in the first place.

KenH · Sep 3, 2002

Originally posted by Chappie:
1) I now believe that the holy Spirit can and does reach everyone.

2) I believe that the Holy Spirit draws everyone. Some are not patient and willing to be longsuffering towards the promises of God.

Just so I understand your points:

1) Are you saying that you believe the Holy Spirit fails to always accomplish His objective?

2) Why is one person patient and another person not patient? Why is one person willing and another person not willing? Based on your answer, how do you avoid human merit in salvation?

Christian regards,

Ken
A Spurgeonite

ForumChaplain · Sep 3, 2002

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Chappie:
1) I now believe that the holy Spirit can and does reach everyone.

2) I believe that the Holy Spirit draws everyone. Some are not patient and willing to be longsuffering towards the promises of God.

Just so I understand your points:

1) Are you saying that you believe the Holy Spirit fails to always accomplish His objective?

2) Why is one person patient and another person not patient? Why is one person willing and another person not willing? Based on your answer, how do you avoid human merit in salvation?

Christian regards,

Ken
A Spurgeonite[/QUOTE]1) The role of the Holy Spirit, its full objective, is to bring us to a saving knowledge of God's grace. Not to save us, Christ is our savior. Its purpose is to gently mold us and bring us willingly to a point of submissiveness before Christ. Yet its objective is never to overpower mans volition as given to him by God.

Consider the straw that broke the Camels back, that is the straw that The Spirit will not use in drawing us to Christ. It will always stop short of overpowering mans will. Having done so, it will have accomplished its full-intended purpose.

2) Patience is not the issue, submissiveness is. When I first came seriously to Christ, first I tried on my own merit to do so. All that I did was make promises and fail. I seem to be able to walk the walk for about six months each time. And then I would fail miserably. Then one night after drinking, dancing, and chasing mini skirts I went home, remembered my promise to God and began to cry. (Yes, I was drunk) Before I stopped praying and crying that night, I admitted to God what I was unworthy even to call his name. I was week, I was a liar, and I was a fornicator; and I admitted that I was helpless to change.

I said, Lord; if you don't save me, I am going straight to hell and there ain't nothing that I can do about it. Based on my helplessness, I essentially ceded my soul to hell. I stopped trying to not do the things that I knew were displeasing to God. Yet, my life began to change. (Did you get that, I did not change my life, my life began to change.)

A month or so later, in my favorite bar, looking at my favorite set of mini skirts, instead of lust I began to feel shame for myself and for the ladies wearing those skirts so high. Instead of a night of fun, they all began to remind me of my sisters. I got off that bar stool and went home. I continued to frequent bars for a while, yet never again did I enjoy myself as before. Eventually it got so boring that I stopped going all together.

No man comes to Christ on their own merit. If you came to Christ last year, it is because The Holy Spirit has been dabbling in your life for years prior to that. As I look back over my life, (Hindsight is 20/20) even when I was the worst that I could be, I can see the Holy Spirit patiently, gently urging me closer to him. I was not saved by temporal standards, yet I never hardened my heart to the point that God would turn me over.

There are thousands of thousands of stories like mine; God does not give up on us until we turn our backs on him. Do you understand that I gave up, but God did not? Can you not see that I did not save myself, God saved me?

[ September 03, 2002, 12:03 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]

KenH · Sep 3, 2002

The bottom line is, Chappie, if you claim you saved yourself by your own free will then you claim you saved yourself because there is something better in you than in the guy next door that wasn't saved - not because of God but because of yourself.

Christian regards,

Ken
A Spurgeonite

ForumChaplain · Sep 3, 2002

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
The bottom line is, Chappie, if you claim you saved yourself by your own free will then you claim you saved yourself because there is something better in you than in the guy next door that wasn't saved - not because of God but because of yourself.

Christian regards,

Ken
A Spurgeonite

Ken:
First of all, I want to say that I appreciate the kind and inquiring way that you post your questions and concerns.

Now, I shall do my best to respond to the bottom line. And that is; did God save me or did I save myself by my actions.

My freewill does not save me, even if I obeyed every command in the bible perfectly, because of inherited sin it still does not have the power to save me. Neither does it encumber Christ in any way shape or form. You see, my salvation rests 100% within the will of Christ. I am not saved by words or deeds; I am not saved by doing the right thing. I am saved volitionally by the only begotten Son of God; Jesus Christ. Am I saved; all I have is his word on it. Nevertheless, that is all I want. He said that if I would do this, he would do that. He told me what faith is. I have it in him. Now I am just waiting for the “that”. His fulfillment of his word, the completion of my salvation.

If Christ said, we are saved by faith, and I say I will do it by works; that is an attempt to save myself. If Christ says, salvation is leaving on the 4:30 northbound, and I say, I will take the 4:35; that is an attempt to save myself. If Christ said that, my works are not good enough, and I said, yes, they are; that would be an attempt to save myself.

It does not matter what is in me, whether it is good or bad makes no difference. It does not matter what is in the next guy; God will only work with us/on us through faith. God is willing to take faith and make us what he wants us to be. He will not work through anything else. God has made faith miraculous, but only in his hands.

The bible says that Christ is the author (beginner) and finisher of our faith. He started it, and he will finish it. Beginner, and finisher; what happens in the in between? Christ working on us and in us to bring our will in to submission. Why is he working on us? Because our tendency is to resist. Why are sinners condemned? Because light is come into the world, but men love darkness more than light. What is this light, it is Christ and the knowledge of who he is.

Do you have children? When you come home from work each day; which do you prefer? When you walk in the door your children run to you, jump on you, start hugging you, everything that they do demonstrates that they love you and miss you. On the other hand, they retreat to the back of the house, reluctantly come when you call, but only in response to the threat of punishment.

God wants a relationship with you based on volitional love and affection. If God had to efficaciously, make you respond to him, even if all the mechanics were correct and in place, god would still know that if he had not brainwashed you, that you would not be doing it. If you want a relationship with the father, to know him is to love him. This is why he sent his son to reveal himself. How many did Christ force to follow him while on this earth? Many rejected him. Moreover, men are still rejecting him today.

KenH · Sep 3, 2002

Originally posted by Chappie:
Do you have children?

Our "children" are 6 dogs - 4 Shetland Sheepdogs(Shelties), 1 Miniature Poodle, and 1 Treeing Walker Coonhound.

Christian Regards,

Ken
A Spurgeonite

Give Me liberty, Or Give Me Justice.

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