Give Me liberty, Or Give Me Justice.

Brother Chappie,

If you are married, do you love your wife equally to all of the other women in the world?

If you have children, do you love them equally to all of the other children in the world?

Do you love your best friend equally to Osam bin Laden?

Did Jesus love all of the apostles equally, or were three of them "special" to Him?

Do you believe that God loves Adolf Hitler equally to the apostle Paul?

Do you believe that God loves equally those in hell compared to those in heaven, that regardless of which place they are in that they are all bathed in the same love of God?

Ken

 

Chappie,

I know the questions in the last paragraph of your response are to Pastor Larry, but I would like to take a stab at answering them.

Well, they will not repent unless God brings them to repentance.

Whoa, whoa, whoa! God NEVER rejects anyone who comes. If they come, they will be welcomed.

I ask God to open their eyes to the truth of the gospel. I ask Him to pursue them, and to bring them to Himself. I ask Him to show them their sin as it really is. I ask God to bring people into their lives who will witness to them. I ask Him to overcome their obstinance. I aks him to make them see how hopeless their situation is and that He is the only hope they have. Etc., etc. etc.

Yes, He has on several occasions, and answered in miraculous ways in situations I thought hopeless.

Why what, exactly? Maybe you can clarify the question. As a general response, I would say that mostly I just trust that God's purposes are good, that He has good reasons for what He does, even if I can't understand them.

No, I know that God loves everyone as evidenced by His good provisions for both the just and the unjust.

I think I have already explained that I do.

Of course.

Well, I will beg Him to bring them into His kingdom. God doesn't prevent anyone from coming into His kingdom, so the word "allow" isn't appropriate.

It's a feverent prayer. Why would you think it would just be getting in prayer time?

I don't understand the question. I thought we were talking specifically of prayers for salvation. If so, why would I pray for the salvation of those who are already saved, rather than those who are still lost?

May I ask you a question or two? Do you pray for the lost? How do you pray for them? What do you ask God to do on their behalf?

[ September 19, 2002, 07:39 PM: Message edited by: russell55 ]

 

I agree that everyone in hell is there because of their sin.

You may want to rethink the idea that God no longer remembers those in hell:

(Rev 14:9-11 NKJV) Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, {10} "he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. {11} "And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Ken

[ September 19, 2002, 09:32 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

Chappie: What about the Bride of Christ?

 

Not sure why you are bringing this up. Did you think I would disagree??

When you read the story, you get an entirely different picture. God is pictured as being "honored" by the destruction of Pharoah, a direct refutation of those who say that God is not honored by destroying sinners (Exo 14:17-18). I don't think God forced Pharoah to do anything. God did harden his heart and the first reference to it in Exo 4 is of God doing it to Pharaoh. Rom 9 confirms to us that God raised Pharoah up to display his glory. Only very selective reading can avoid the clear teaching that Pharoah was Pharoah because God wanted him to be.

"In that day" is always an important part of the verse. That is eschatological when all nations turn to God (see Micah 5, I believe, as well as a host of other passages).

Where?? Romans 9:15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.

He does offer it to all.

It is the kindness of God that leads them to repentance (Rom 2:4). And if they come, God will not reject any (JOhn 6:37). This is why I say again that you do not understand what we are saying. All who come do so because God has drawn them efficaciously. All who do not come have no desire or will to come. They do not want to be saved. There is not group of "wanting to come but being rejected anyway." The Bible teaches that "whosoever will may come." Do not leave out the "will" part.

For God to open their eyes and give them faith to believe. The bigger question is, Why do you pray at all? Would not the answer to your prayer be the unfair intervention of the Divine Being into the free will of man? And wouldn't it be unfair to everyone who doesn't have someone praying for them if God only works on those who get prayed for? To me, this introduces a large element of injustice into your position and makes God a respecter of those who know pray-ers while leaving behind and untouched those who do not.

These questions lose me here. I do pray for the lost. In fact, I have been praying for 6 people I talked to this past weekend. I am hoping to go back see some of them today. I do beseech God on their behalf. Just 3 weeks ago my neighbor for whom I have been praying was saved and last week she was baptized. Again, I repeat my question to you, if you believe that God's intervention in human "freedom" is unjust or unfair, why do you pray? Are you asking God to deny the facet of his nature that you find most appealing? It seems that way.

[ September 20, 2002, 08:42 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

Those that end up in hell have no interest in being in heaven. There is an agnostic on another board I am on who doesn't know if hell exists but if it does it will be fine with him if he goes there as he has no interest in serving God(Whom he also does not know if He exists) to avoid hell. He reminds me of the quote from Paradise Lost where the author, John Milton, has Satan saying something along the lines of "It is better to rule in hell than to serve in heaven." Milton was an uninspired author, but I believe that is how those who end up in hell view things.

Ken

 

Chappie,

Having considered your posts a bit let me state this: I think you are missing the point of election. To actively choose some to A is not to actively choose the others to B. It is to make no choice regarding them. God did not choose to send those people to hell. He made no choice with regards to them. When you choose to go to dinner somewhere, you do not "not choose" every other place. You choose your place generally without regard for other places. Obviously because of personal taste the analogy breaks down a bit. Since God has no personal taste, his choices are free from that. You seem to think that God is actively choosing some to hell. I don't believe he is.

On second point, you say that God saves people so that they will repent. That is not true. Salvation encompasses the whole process, from election to glorification. What is technically true is that God regenerates people so that they will repent (if you are like Ken) or that God effectually calls people so that they will repent (if you are like me). To say that Calvinists believe God saves people so that they will repent is to misunderstand what we believe Scripture teaches.

I am not closed minded to your views and explanations. I have seen them all before and they are not any more convincing now than they used to be. I don't say that to be flippant but I simply to let you know that I do understand your position and your tensions. I also understand teh tensions with my position. However, I cannot do justice to Scripture with your position and that is why my position on the sovereignty of God is a bedrock core issue of my theology.

 

I disagree that God elected anyone to Hell. We were all bound for Hell according to the scripture. When God elected his children to Heaven he left the others where they were. When Adam sinned the elect fallen in Adam would be redeemed in Christ according to Genesis 3:15. The others not elected would end up in Hell not being elected to Heaven.

Romans 9: 11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth... Brother Glen

 

Logically impossible. One must choose to "not choose," leading to a choice - maybe a passive one, but a choice.

would you say that God chose NOT to choose others?

 

Logically impossible only for someone who believes that time can somehow be not time at the same time. However, there is no logical impossibility. To choose some is to say nothing about the others. When I chose to marry my wife, I was consciously choosing her. I was not choosing to damn the rest of the female population to life without me ... This is not difficult gentlemen. It is really pretty easy.

 

Brother Chappie,

Since the elect and election are mentioned in the Bible, what are you going to do with the teaching?

Ken

 

Everytime you post, you seem to confirm my belief that you are not interested in learning. You do not seem to be even dealing with the issues scripturally. From you and Scott both, I see a lot of logic and thought, but not much Scripture. That is disappointing.

I think you have it exactly backwards. If God chooses those who choose him (something never said in Scripture incidentally ... see first paragraph), then he becomes a God of favoritism. He plays favorites to those lucky enough to hear or lucky enough to have friends that know Christ. Do you not think for one moment that when God assigned some to be born in darkest Africa that he knew he was consigning them to hell forever? Of course God knew that. So why would a God of justice allow someone to be born in a place where he knew they would never hear the gospel? If God works that way, he obviously plays favorites to those born in white, middle class America, who statistically have the greatest chance of hearing and therefore the greatest chance of being saved.

In your paragraph, you make a direct argument for a merited salvation, something that was anathema to Bible believers through the years. I don't think you even realize you have done it but read your paragraph: god chooses some to be saved over others without a cause that is found in those chosen makes it an unjust. You are saying that God should choose people with cause. Once it is with cause, then it is no longer of grace; it has been merited. And that is simply unbiblical. That is why I say, you need to think very carefully about what you believe.

The God of Scripture respects no man, regardless of where he is born, who his friends are, what society he lives in, or how smart he is.

Then you must deal with Scripture, not me. God said it, I believe it. Pull out the concordance and start doing a study on the Greek word eklego and its cognates and related words. That is the only way to settle this issue.

My apologies. He was wrong. My comments stand.

I don't believe what I do because I have rejected the evidence. I have rejected the evidence you put forth because of the weight of Scripture. But (see first paragraph) you are not dealing with much Scritpure.

Another prime example of either misunderstanding or misrepresentation. God does not arbitrarily condemn anyone to hell. He condemsn them because of their sin. And in so doing, he is completely just. In fact, to not do so would be to be unjust. Sin requires a just penalty.

I can tolerate free will. As I have said many times, every person has a free will. That is not at issue.

Again I repeat, you are not dealing with Scripture. Start with 2 Thess 2:13 and tell us what the relationship between election and belief is. You can refer to John 6, Eph 1, Phil 1:29, Rom 8:29-30, etc. Let's talk Scripture and leave your "logic" at the door.

BTW, I noticed you haven't dealt with my questions about prayer. Why? I think they are very relevant questions that you should think through. You said you would answer some questions. Why not start with those?

[ September 20, 2002, 06:24 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

Brother Chappie,

Please name the person in this forum who believes that God arbitrarily condemns anyone to hell. I am not aware of a double predestinationist in posting in this forum, and to accuse a non-double predestinationist of teaching that God arbitrarily condemns anyone to hell is intellectually dishonest.

Ken

[ September 20, 2002, 06:22 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]