Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
My views have never been said to be outside of mainstream Calvinism. I am not the standard bearer. I simply believe that the Bible teaches what people generally call Calvinism.
Pastor Larry:
I am at present in discussions with different individualsof the Calvinist persuasion. Calvinism is as varied as the number ofpeople that you talk to. If it is as scripturally clear as you say, there should be very little difference between what Calvinist believe. Calvinism professes to have Calvinist and hyper-calvinist. Which ones are intrepreting the scriptures incorrectly??
2 Thess 2:13 specifically mentions God’s choosing people from the beginning for salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the truth. That is a clear verse that demonstrate that my position in biblical. John 6, the very words of Christ himself, are directed to people, not groups, and therefore must of necessity reference personal election. Eph 1 is very clear about the election of people to salvation. My request is for you to tell us why these verses don’t mean what they say. It seems very clear. You later say You want scriptures, get your own!!! I have them. I have posted them, explained them, and dealt with the objections to them. I have shown how Scripture supports the view I hold.
This is your passage, perhaps you could demonstrate to me how it supports individual election....
Does this passage standing alone or in the contest of surrounding passages prove individual election?????
2 Thess.2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
II Th 2:8-17
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
Unrighteousness has the power to deceive. Those that perish have embraced unrighteousness, because they would not embrace (receive) a love of truth that they might be saved. They chose a love of the pleasures of unrighteousness over the benefits of loving the truth.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
Because they have volitionally chosen the pleasures of unrighteousness, God will send them a strong delusion that they may believe the lie that allows them to live the lie that they have chosen without any more interference or conviction from God.
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
God does this that all that have chosen the pleasures of unrighteousness may be justly condemned for their action. God actually turns them over to the pleasures of their unrighteousness that they may enjoy it while they can. God removes any conviction of conscience. (Reprobate mind)
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
“But we” (We being plural by definition) give thanks to God for you brethren (Brethren, plural by definition) because God hath from the beginning chosen you (You, the brethren) to be saved through sanctification (being set aside to be holy) of the spirit, and by believing the truth. There is no individual election here. Those that are chosen are chosen because of a belief in the truth.
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
They were called unto this sanctification and truth by the Gospel, (Nothing about a gospel and an efficacious gospel) A gospel that is sufficient unto the obtaining of the glory of our Lord, Jesus Christ.
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
Stand fast, to what you have been taught, as our Lord and even the father which has loved us (Us, plural} has given us this gift through his grace. (Through Grace, not election…)
Pastor Larry, would you please demonstrate using the surrounding passages how 2 Thess.2:13, demonstrates individual election. As a scripture standing in context it fails, IMHO, to do so. Standing alone it can be used to prove many things….
[ September 23, 2002, 11:04 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]
