Give Me liberty, Or Give Me Justice.

[KenH]

Originally posted by Chappie:
Please scroll back to my post dated September 20, 2002 11:52 AM, there you will find the words in question. Please read the very first two lines that are written in all caps. It is on the previous page. (Page 6)

Is that from someone in this forum?

Ken

 

[russell55]

Chappie,

I sent you a private message this morning in response to that post. Have you read it?

 

[ForumChaplain]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
Everytime you post, you seem to confirm my belief that you are not interested in learning. You do not seem to be even dealing with the issues scripturally. From you and Scott both, I see a lot of logic and thought, but not much Scripture. That is disappointing.

Pastor Larry, I love you, and I am interested in learning. I am interested in discussing things with you, but i just am not very interested in what you are teaching. When you are ready to study together, perhaps we can engage in a learning experience. All that I have gleaned from you to this point is that you know everything, i know nothing. Now that may be true, but the all that you know is wrong.

So let me save you a few keystrokes, my interests are to study with you, believe what i choose to believe based on my understanding of scripture and rebutt the rest. Are you ready for that type of study??

So you want scriptures do you? Well even Satan can quote scriptures. Yet the very logic that you cast out the window is necessary in order to gleen what God is teaching us in scripture. You ought to try it some time. Logic, start to finish..

I think you have it exactly backwards. If God chooses those who choose him (something never said in Scripture incidentally ... see first paragraph), then he becomes a God of favoritism. He plays favorites to those lucky enough to hear or lucky enough to have friends that know Christ. Do you not think for one moment that when God assigned some to be born in darkest Africa that he knew he was consigning them to hell forever? Of course God knew that. So why would a God of justice allow someone to be born in a place where he knew they would never hear the gospel? If God works that way, he obviously plays favorites to those born in white, middle class America, who statistically have the greatest chance of hearing and therefore the greatest chance of being saved.

Pastor, you are the one caught up in this "chose" mire. I never said that God chose anyone to be saved. I say, he set the criteria for salvation,(Which is the gift of faith btw)We can either accept it, or we can reject it. God's kingdom does not suffer in the least little bit, whither we accept or reject.

You talk about luck, please. Consider the one lucky enough to be chosen by God if you want to consider luck. Consider the one unlucky enough to be chosen... Such illogical conclusions by you... You want to talk about luck. Consider the one lucky enough to be born the son of a preacher, but unlucky enough not to be chosen...

In your paragraph, you make a direct argument for a merited salvation, something that was anathema to Bible believers through the years. I don't think you even realize you have done it but read your paragraph: god chooses some to be saved over others without a cause that is found in those chosen makes it an unjust.

In order to say such foolishness, you deny a seculear and a biblical deffinition of the word "chose". It demands criteria. Surely a little thought and quite time should cause you to realize that.

I know that you do not know how God chose, itsa mystery. Yet perhaps you can give me an illustration where someone actually chose without criteria. Just one. We won't hold God to it... Either he chose based on criteria, or he just randomly pointed his finger. Perhaps a roll of the heavenly dice...

One simple request, show me how it is possible to chose and remain faithful to the deffinition of the word.

You are saying that God should choose people with cause. Once it is with cause, then it is no longer of grace; it has been merited. And that is simply unbiblical. That is why I say, you need to think very carefully about what you believe.

I say God chose no man to be saved absent the criteria for salvation. I say, God condemned no man, but we were condemned by our own deeds.

A merited salvation. you must be kidding me. I make no such claims. Now who refuses to learn, now whose is fabricating.

The God of Scripture respects no man, regardless of where he is born, who his friends are, what society he lives in, or how smart he is.

You got that right, that's why the scripture say, For god so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlastion life.

Did you get that, not whosoever is chosen; whosoever believeth. (Look up the word, "whosoever) And if you must be chosen to believe, then God is in the business of misleading people.

Another prime example of either misunderstanding or misrepresentation. God does not arbitrarily condemn anyone to hell. He condemsn them because of their sin. And in so doing, he is completely just. In fact, to not do so would be to be unjust. Sin requires a just penalty.[/b]

OK. let's try a little logic. If God condems men because of their sin, (hold it now) and all men are sinners; then all men are condemned. (Round peg in the round hole, square peg in the square hole). If God now chooses some and does not condemn them, (2+2+4) then not all men are condemned because of their sin. Sin requires a just penalty. Those in hell got justice, those in heaven got favoritism.. Can you not see just how unreasonable your comments are???

Again I repeat, you are not dealing with Scripture. Start with 2 Thess 2:13 and tell us what the relationship between election and belief is. You can refer to John 6, Eph 1, Phil 1:29, Rom 8:29-30, etc. Let's talk Scripture and leave your "logic" at the door.

Not a single scripture that you have posted says anything about indivigual election. Not one. Perhaps you just left your logic at the door.

Post the scripture, tell me how to intrepret it to illustrate election. Can you do that. Like i said, anygbody can post scriptures, but do they understand what they have read. Now you need that logic stuff....

BTW, I noticed you haven't dealt with my questions about prayer. Why? I think they are very relevant questions that you should think through. You said you would answer some questions. Why not start with those?

Must have overlooked them. point me to them

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Chappie:
Sin requires a just penalty. Those in hell got justice, those in heaven got favoritism.

Christ paid the just penalty for His people.

Actually, those in heaven receive what is called mercy.

Ken

[ September 20, 2002, 08:21 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

[Ray Berrian]

Ken Hamilton,

' . . . those in Heaven got favoritism.'

At best this is a distorted philosophy of what God does with humankind. The Bible, in fact, corrects this fractured view. Read Romans 2:11 and Deuteronomy. One from the O.T. and one from the New; as if one verse should not stop the error.

N.T. 'For there is no respect of persons with God.'

O.T. 'For the Lord you God is God of gods . . . . mighty, and terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor take reward.'

I guess these are two more verses which people ignore; but if accepted would put to death the view of Unconditional Election.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
I guess these are two more verses which people ignore; but if accepted would put to death the view of Unconditional Election.

That's a good one, Brother Ray.

What non-Calvinists have been unable to do for 2000 years, you think you can do with just two verses without the context taken into account.

Ken

[ September 20, 2002, 09:01 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Ken Hamilton,

' . . . those in Heaven got favoritism.'

At best this is a distorted philosophy of what God does with humankind.

Brother Ray,

You do understand that I disagree that God shows favoritism. God shows mercy to whom He shows mercy, not favoritism.

Ken

 

[KenH]

Brother Ray,

Actually, it is the Arminian/non-Calvinist system that has God showing favoritism. It has God saving one person because the system says that person has done something(belief, baptism, whatever) to merit being saved, as opposed to another person who has not done something, based on natural human ability, based on something native to the person whom the Bible describes as being spiritually dead. It is the Arminian/non-Calvinist system that has man marching up to the throne of God and demanding entry into heaven because he did such-and-such and God is obligated to save him based on human merit. You can rail against the conclusion all you want, but such a conclusion is inescapable in the Arminian/non-Calvinist system.

I believe the Bible teaches salvation is 100% the work of God

, not 50% God and 50% man, not 80% God and 20% man, or not even 99.9% God and .1% man.

Man, straightening out theological error wears me out.

Ken

[ September 20, 2002, 09:15 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

[ForumChaplain]

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Chappie:
Sin requires a just penalty. Those in hell got justice, those in heaven got favoritism.

Christ paid the just penalty for His people.

Actually, those in heaven receive what is called mercy.

Ken</font>[/QUOTE]That certaintly was nice of him... I wonder what the ones that he did not die for think of him, does he even care? Who created the rest of us. Where is our messiah, who will die for us. If God did not want the rest of us, why did he create us. (Overproduction) For those that have more children than they can take care of here on this earth, we do not just destroy the children. {Perhaps we should, you say God did. is not our struggle to be more Christlike. But alas, We have wellfare. Is hellfare the answer to God's over population.

I thought that God was abundant in mercy, did he run out? Was his mercy too good to give to those that he condemned, watch out; respect of persons..

I know that you may consider my response sarcastic, but it is not intended as such. It's intent is to magnify the shortcomings of calvinism..

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Chappie:
I know that you may consider my response sarcastic, but it is not intended as such. It's intent is to magnify the shortcomings of calvinism..

Brother Chappie,

No offense taken. When the facts go against someone, they often use absurd reasoning.

Frankly, however, I fail to see why you adhere to a position that so clearly makes God out to be a respector of persons through human ability as the Arminian/non-Calvinist system does.

Ken

 

[Ray Berrian]

Chappie,

You got your points across.

I too doubt that the Triune Godhead has run short of His Divine love, grace and mercy for all people if they will return to Him. [John 5:40]

Who is unwilling to come in this verse? God or human being?

I wish Dr. Pink could have tried to exegete this verse; he probably would jump to another one that appears to confirm his belief.

 

[Ray Berrian]

God is not a respecter of persons by convincing some to receive Christ while others ignore His claims. You do remember, don't you, that there is a struggle between good and evil, God and the Devil. Whoever the human being listens to and finds the most compelling wins the soul. After all, we have a proclivity when we are sinners to believe the Evil One because our Adamic nature has twisted our thinking and desires.

 

[ForumChaplain]

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
Brother Ray,

Actually, it is the Arminian/non-Calvinist system that has God showing favoritism. It has God saving one person because the system says that person has done something(belief, baptism, whatever) to merit being saved, as opposed to another person who has not done something, based on natural human ability, based on something native to the person whom the Bible describes as being spiritually dead. It is the Arminian/non-Calvinist system that has man marching up to the throne of God and demanding entry into heaven because he did such-and-such and God is obligated to save him based on human merit. You can rail against the conclusion all you want, but such a conclusion is inescapable in the Arminian/non-Calvinist system.

I believe the Bible teaches salvation is 100% the work of God

, not 50% God and 50% man, not 80% God and 20% man, or not even 99.9% God and .1% man.

Man, straightening out theological error wears me out.

Ken

What lack of merit does God use to deny them. Only in calvinism does equal opportunity for all result in favoritism.

Ken, if God chose, he used criteria or he used the wrong word. Is that so hard to understand or to figure out. Instead of trying to distort the deffinition of the word, why not find and use the right word?

If God chose you, he used criteria in order to do so. or did he use a system of, say; every millionith person born belongs to me. Nope, that encampasses criteria.

He chose all the firstborn of Israel as his own. Is there criteria there? Let's see. Would all the first born please step forward. Oops!!! not everyone steped forward. Perhaps there is a difference between the first born and the second born....

Did he chose everyone that would that believes in him, Nope; criteria. Every ugly one, nope. If there is absolutely no difference, how does God know who he chose??

God is no respecter of persons, yet he makes no such claims concerning criteria....

Believe, faith, love, humility, charity, mercy, God loves that stuff...

 

[KenH]

Brother Ray,

Just to make sure, you have not fallen for the lie that God has a vote, the devil has a vote, and you cast the deciding vote, have you?

Remember, the devil is not equal in power to God.

Ken

 

[KenH]

Brother Chappie,

God has not revealed a criteria for whom He has regenerated. Why do you assume there must be some? Doesn't God, the Creator, have the right to choose simply because He chose, without having to answer to you or any other created being?

Ken

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
[John 5:40]

Who is unwilling to come in this verse? God or human being?

Brother Ray,

No one is willing unless he is given new life by God first, enabled by God.

Here are a couple of verses that Arminian commentators must gnash their teeth at.

(John 6:44 NKJV) "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

(John 6:65 NKJV) And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."

Ken

 

[ForumChaplain]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Chappie,

You got your points across.

I too doubt that the Triune Godhead has run short of His Divine love, grace and mercy for all people if they will return to Him. [John 5:40]

Who is unwilling to come in this verse? God or human being?

I wish Dr. Pink could have tried to exegete this verse; he probably would jump to another one that appears to confirm his belief.

You are making some very good points yourself. The light that is being shinned into their lives is undeniable. Yet they have become comfortable in the darkness. They know their way around there. They have become comfortable with what they cannot see. Yet with God, as long as there is breath in the body, there is hope...

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
I wish Dr. Pink could have tried to exegete this verse

Brother Ray,

Have you researched this? How do you know he didn't exegete that verse and you are simply not aware of it?

Ken

 

[ForumChaplain]

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
Brother Chappie,

God has not revealed a criteria for whom He has regenerated. Why do you assume there must be some? Doesn't God, the Creator, have the right to choose simply because He chose, without having to answer to you or any other created being?

Ken

All that i ask of you is that you admit that it exists. I am not asking that you know what it is.
Once you get past that, then you will have to biblically define "respector of persons". You will have to realize that God has established criteria for salvation that does not make him a respector of persons...

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Chappie:
Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
All that i ask of you is that you admit that it exists.

Okay. The criteria for God choosing is the fact that He chose.

Just like He told the Israelites that He loved them because...He loved them.

(Deuteronomy 7:7-8 NKJV) "The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any other people, for you were the least of all peoples; {8} "but because the LORD loves you, and because He would keep the oath which He swore to your fathers, the LORD has brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you from the house of bondage, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

Ken

[ September 20, 2002, 09:55 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]