Pedaphiles in Church

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nicole:
Just an aside...that gives some hope, a church we went to for many years with a WONDERFUL preacher, had a change in leadership and our pastor was led to move somewhere else...then the new guy came in. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you for your story. My wife's history is similar and her husband had molested his own three daughters, but was beating my wife and throwing her into walls, etc. She too was given BAD advice by a pastor, but as soon as the oldest daughter talked, my wife called the police that night and the pastor helped hide her and the children until the police could finish their case to lock him up. After my wife and the kids got through with him in court the judge saw fit to give him a life term and two consecutive 15 year sentences. He is still serving, but will come up for parole when my oldest daughter is 18 which will only be two years. I married her because I loved her and the children (right or wrong) and I knew those kids needed a Christian father. We have had MAJOR problems with all of them (all the counselors said we would, it is typical with abused children to turn on their mother when they are older because they feel inside that she put them into the situation even though she knew nothing about it.) She REALLY had a problem with this child molester at church, as I did too because we have seen the pain the children go through. They too are sentenced to a life of suffering. They have a different concept of reality than non-molested children do. This is the reason stood up as a family (I have adopted the three girls because his parental rights were stripped away by the court). It is amazing how many people just think abuse whether it is spousal like yours or child abuse is not their problem. They say "why doesn't the wife just move out." The answer is way too complex: They are afraid of getting killed. They are afraid of not having a way to support themselves and or their kids. Plus, a lot of other factors. People do NOT understand abuse unless they have been exposed to it....I am convinced of this. Our child molester at church turned himself into the victim and had grown men crying because he had to spend 8 months in a day prison. They are EXPERTS at being the victim. I bet your husband would turn himself into the victim and make it look like your fault after he beat you. But, honey, if you wouldn't do these things I wouldn't get mad and hit you, etc. etc. I bet you KNOW what I'm talking about. Surprisingly, in a church, many were raised in Christian homes and they have NO CONCEPT of the evil they are dealing with and are easily sucked into the victimization stories of the molesters. You need to read a seven page hand written letter this guy wrote me from prison appologizing, then blaming everything on DHS ("This couldn't happen in America") because they wanted to take the child out of the house and blaming it on the police detectives because they wanted to press charges after he "had his life straighted out in church". By the way, I don't know if I mentioned it, but he didn't go to church until he was caught. Thanks for your story, very enlightening.

 

Thank you Larry very appropriate and I think that Katie is on the same track too, but let me clarify just a couple of issues that concern me about this situation and also maybe answer a couple of Katie's questions:

1. I have NO problem with this man going to church. I am ordered by Jesus to love him as my neighbor.

2. God can and will change anyone who comes to him through his Son, Jesus in true repentance.

3. In this particular case, this man is still doing things that indicate that he may still have a problem of sorts. I cannot judge if he is a Christian or not, BUT; God gave me brains not to be stu---(that word that means dumb that they keep bleeping out) and protect my children. This man still watches children through the nursery windows and hides when adults come around. I have personally seen this by hiding in the dark kitchen (big church). He watches children (from behind) and plays with them, lets them climb all over him, etc. He is dating a divorcee who has no problem letting him babysit her seven year old daughter. (He's saved now--she says.) He dumped his wife immediately after getting out of prison (using his family as a reason to reduce his sentence). His ENTIRE sentencing hearing lasted EIGHT hours as he paraded people to testify for him and turned in over 30 references including one from a dead aunt who said he shouldn't be punished for ONE mistake. (Actually, several hundred from six to thirteen--twice to three times a week--in his own words). Oh, by the way, did I mention that he pled guilty of all charges and threw himself on the mercy of the court -- for eight hours?

Now, let me repeat my problems with the situation:

1. The staff never knew this man until he came to the pastor's house crying AFTER he got caught. They testified that the whole church was behind him getting completely off (no sentence so there would be nobody in the church read about it in the paper--the staff was so mad they were throwing things when they came back from the courthouse -- causing a secretary to quit. All because he got time and it would be listed in the paper.) The staff did NOT, as required by law, turn this in to the Department of Human Services, they simply recommended a counselor who turned it in THREE months later--all the while he was still living with the little girl.

First of all, the staff had no business interfering with the state's role of sentencing him. When Jesus hung on the cross and the thief asked him for forgiveness and told the other thief that Jesus was innocent and they weren't and deserved what they got, did you notice Jesus did NOT deliver him from the cross -- government's punishment? He forgave him and allowed him eternal life. But, he still had to endure a cruel death penalty.

By taking away this man's sentence down from the state's required minimum to suspended all but 1.5 years (eight months served) HE HAS NOT PAID HIS DEBT TO SOCIETY AND GOVERNMENT.

Let me get back to my list.

1. The staff had no business interfering with the state.

2. The staff actively covered this up and is continuing to cover this up and the pastor himself has stated that "he didn't do anything except for the last year and a half". Now, the rumour is that he embezzled.

3. The parents are not warned. I DON'T CARE IF HE IS A CHRISTIAN HE IS A LISTED SEXUAL OFFENDER AND OKLAHOMA LAW REQUIRES NOTIFICATION.

4. He is allowed to work in the television room at the switch board where he can zoom any one of three cameras in on ANYBODY in the audience without being seen.

5. He has a key to the church. The pastor told me he didn't--he showed it to me.

Now, let me tell you how I would handle this again: I would make him sit in the pews with the audience and LISTEN to the sermons.

I would assign a deacon or deacons to him to be with him any time he is in the church and take away his key and change the locks.

Now, Katie, let me explain why I would treat a Christian this way and how any other sinner should be treated.

If I had a person who started coming to church who just got out of jail for embezzling five or six companies, would it be smart to put him in charge of counting the cash offering on Sunday?

No, it is the church's responsibility to (besides protecting their children.) help keep a Christian from temptation. And, if he has done this for seven years weekly; my guess is that he still craves it even if he is a Christian and is a changed person. So, we use our God given brains and common sense depending on the person.

Even if this man was NOT showing any signs of not having changed, the church is taking an enormous risk with their children because of the patterns of child molesters....with three molested children I have studied them in depth and even if they become Christians, they still have abnormal cravings which makes this particular person someone that HAS to be watched.

As for other sinners--it depends on the crime. As you say all sin is sin, but if somebody is guilty of say cussing and they have quit or drinking and have quit, then they pose no threat to the audience or other members. BIG DIFFERENCE.

Sorry, that I get to rambling, but I get real frustrated because most of the people in the church that are talked to about it simply DO NOT CARE, either because they do not have kids or this man has fooled them into thinking he is the nicest guy in the world (so was Ted Bundy--in public).

You don't have to judge him, punish him any more anything like that -- just don't put him to work--volunteer or not--where he can see the entire crowd and zoom in at will unknown to the audience. Place him in a pew and tell him if he has truly repented "he shouldn't mind sitting here and learning about Christianity for a while." before giving him trust. The staff is WRONG&lt; WRONG&lt; WRONG&lt; for covering this up and if he is truly repentant, he will not mind telling the audience what he did and ask for their forgiveness and EXPECT parents to keep their kids away from him.

I hope that I clarified the reason you have to treat this particular sin in this special way--otherwise if one child is hurt--she or he will live with it the rest of their lives.

Sure, love the sinner--but use common sense in the situation.

I'll stop preaching now. Thanks and may God Bless.

[ September 18, 2001: Message edited by: Phillip ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by katie:
Phillip, I have a question,
Was this man a member of your church before he got caught? Was he a christian before? Or did he appear to be saved after? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No on all counts, he even told his wife he would NEVER got to church because it was ****** to go to church--she could go alone all she wanted. Two to three days after he was caught he went to the city park with his wife (from his court confession in his handwriting) he broke down started crying and said he needed to talk to a pastor. She had threatened "again" to leave him. (She knew about the abuse earlier, but that's another story, not enough evidence to convict her according to the police det.) He went to the pastors home at one oclock in the morning and fell on his living room floor crying. The pastor said he had "NEVER" seen a more "AWESOME" conversion. (To me, ALL conversions are AWESOME.) This occurred about three weeks after he was called in by the youth minister and told that they knew what he had done and needed to go to a "Christian" counselor. He begged the church not to call the police--they didn't. THIS IS ILLEGAL.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> If he wasn't a member of that church before, when the crime was committed, he doesn't actually owe them an appology. No one tell their church all their sins, , now I'm only saying what if hee, but what if he is saved, has repented of this sin, what if he's ashamed of it? And doesn't want to reveal it to people. Have you openly confessed all your sins to your church? How old were you when you were saved? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is totally irrelevant because I never said he had to say his sins before the church. BUT, if the church leaders are going to court under oath and saying that the ENTIRE CHURCH IS BEHIND THIS MAN TO KEEP HIM OUT OF PRISON....and nobody knows about it except the staff, then I think the church deserves an explanation. This means that I as a member approve of reducing his sentence. I don't---he should pay Ceasar what is Ceasar's.


<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Supose he is chasnged(doesn't sound like it), is he supose to confess to every church he ever goes too? What happens if he doesn't have any work in the church that involves children, are the parents supose to be told because he's a memeber of the same church? I mean I don't know the laws in your state. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The laws in our state, (Oklahoma) are probably the same as any state. A sexual offender is a FELONY offense which is related to VIOLENCE. Any organization that has children in it has a responsibility to WARN the parents and allow them to make their own decisions if they think there is a risk. Whether or not there is a law, it is only common sense. Remember my example, if a person convicted of embezzling four or five businesses were to suddenly appear on your doorstep, you probably don't need to tell the audience, BUT you DON'T put him in charge of counting the offering on Sunday. This is a crime of violence. It was sexual in nature. It was to a child. Therefore, the ONLY way to prevent possible liability is to at least pull the parents aside and warn them. The church leaders PROMISED us they would do this ----- three years ago. To date, probably only a handful know about it.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I agree, that church seems to have done some wrong things in this case, what were they like before all this?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

WRONG? Every single staff minister except one (the business manager) committed perjury on the witness stand by lying to the court. Their entire testimonies were lies. Not just the fact that we were NOT aware and they said we were behind him 100% in this decision to not put him in jail, there were many, many other untruths.

THEN, they broke the law by not notifying the congregation.

Finally, they broke the law by allowing him to work and to volunteer in an organization that provides any type of service to children.

Besides breaking the law they have acted unethically by actively HIDING this by lying to people about what happened when they ask (I don't CARE if he is embarassed or NOT---NOT AN ISSUE HERE.) They have now started the rumor that the man was charged with embezzlement. Is is okay to lie for the greater end?

Oh, and the BIGGIE, they did not turn this in to the Department of Human Services as required by law immediately. They simply sent him to a counselor in Tulsa, who did turn him in because he was required to, but only after two or three months went by (due to the length of time it took to get an appointment) with the little girl still in the house. Besides, lying to my wife when she asked the pastor three times if he was going to turn it in so she wouldn't have to, but would if they didn't want to.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
Did they seem pretty much ok, or what? Your in a different church now I thought you said. Is that right?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Besides turning the services into "entertainment" rather than church and playing politics, the pastor is relately new and had not been there long enough for me to make a good judgement of their activities. I do know that he is a STRONG leader (I didn't say there is anything wrong with this), but whatever he wants he demands it. He is now trying to build a new 13 million dollar building and put the church in debt one year after they paid off a 1 million dollar note to build the music minister a new office and add a few dividers in the kitchen. 25% of the church is against it, so he basically told them they weren't in the will of God. This has occurred recently.
I did notice that he is VERY POLITICALLY ORIENTED. Money is important to him, show and hob knobbing with the cities secular elite. He doesn't care if another church splits as long as he gets the members. Outside of that I can't judge beyond this case, but there are so many things connected that I haven't discussed it would take a novel.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing against this man getting some punishment, he should have been in jail. And I wouldn't leave him alone with my children either.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I AGREE WITH YOU 100%. He has NOT paid his dues to society. A non-Christian was sentenced to 15 full years in the same court-room a week later all because he didn't have the staff of the largest church in town to parade across the bench for him. Members of the courthouse, who heard the sentencing asked us why we were dumb enough to go to that church...so obviously it has also had an effect on the secular image of Christianity and that particular church.

Please, don't let my wife get on here. You will feel like you have been through a sausage grinder. Remember, I told you we raised three sexually abused girls. You have no idea of the pain. She told me to at least mention that she feels that you probably are not a mother. (That is not meant to be an insult from me, but an observation from somebody who has been there and is a good Christian lady.)
In Christ,
Phillip

[ September 20, 2001: Message edited by: Phillip ]

[ September 20, 2001: Message edited by: Phillip ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nicole:
Katie, Phillip has said that the guy had never been to the church before this. He was caught doing this, and was facing sentencing. Like Larry put it in his earlier post, we ARE warned of wolves in sheeps clothing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you so much for the support Nicole (my youngest daughter is "Nicole") This is the typical reaction. It doesn't seem like its that big and he is now the VICTIM, not the little girl whose life he destroyed. People feel sorry for HIM, not the children. As with your experience I know you can see the frustration (plus you are paying attention to what I write -- not just skimming....hehe)
Again, Thank you and may God bless you
Phillip

[ September 25, 2001: Message edited by: Phillip ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by katie:
Nicole, I was only asking questions, wondering why this church has done this. Their behavior is quite odd. And it seems in this instant the totally wrong thing to do. They stood up for him in court, and didn't even know him. I feel that their is much more to this story then even Phillip may know.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know this was written to Nicole, but I must respond:

What I know.......

Everything the police department investigators know. (small town, lots of contacts--they also arrested the molester of my children and know our case)

What the court records say which includes not only the testimony, the thirty letters of recommendation for the one incident this guy did, they also contain his hand written confession throwing himself on the mercy of the court, but asking his 15 year minimum sentence to be dropped and keep it quiet so he can keep his job. (My wife bought copies of the court records at our expense.)

What the pastor has said to me and others. The lies: "He is not a pedaphile because he is not attracted to children" (eight years old? hmmm) "He only did it a year and a half and it only happened a few times (according to his confession 6 years of age to 13 years of age 2 to 3 times per week minimum --7 years times 2 incidents per times 52 weeks per year? Minimum of 728 molestations -- and that is Best case?)

I have been told by three individuals they were told to shut their mouths about it, it was handled. I was told by the head deacon that I would NOT start a bon-fire in HIS (I thought it was mine too) church.

If I told you all the gory details it would take more memory than your computer could handle.

Now, what I don't know: Rumor has it his father gave a donation of $10,000 to the church to be used for the sound or tv to give his son a job and get him off with no sentence. Funny, the music minister told me that we could spend 10 thousand on a new audio board given by a little old lady that died--one week after the trial. I didn't know of any ladies dying that month in the church. I did NOT bring this up because it is a rumor and unsubstantiated--just highly suspected because there are too many coincidences. All I brought up was what I had PROOF of in either direct testimony or documentation.

As to an earlier question about can't this be turned in to somebody. Well, the judge sure isn't going to admit he made a mistake--the only thing left to turn in is the fact they still have a convicted sexual offender working without having notified the family and rather than have the ruining of a church on my conscious by going to the secular media (who would love a story like this) I will simply warn the SBC of the pastor so he can warn potential new churches. After all, he appears to only be concerned about his resume and moving up to bigger churches.

Yes, there are problably things I don't know--like the exact amount of pain that little girl went through every single week of her youth.

 

While I'm on a roll, I want to make a point about sins and differences in sins.

First of all, YES, any sin convicts us to eternal damnation without the intervening grace of Jesus Christ.

In Mathew, Jesus said he came to fulfill the law not to get rid of it (speaking of the old testament laws given to the Israelis before they entered the promised land.

This law required BIG differences in punishment for different sins. For killing somebody on purpose -- you died. For stealing a cow, you replaced the cow and maybe paid a certain amount to the owner (like a fine today--given to the victim in a civil case) YES, in THIS world we have sin and then we have "crime". A convicted felon is and SHOULD be treated differently than a person who has just committed a morality sin, because they broke the law of the land, not just God's law.

A convicted felon cannot buy a gun--should we change that law if they say they are a Christian? I don't think so!

A convicted felon will have to put up with the "human" and "governmental" issues of their crime as ordained by God in Romans 13: 1-6.

This man is convicted of a violent crime, a sexual crime, AND a crime to a child. This puts him in a category that requires the church to follow the laws of the land (see verses above).

He owes no appologies to the church. I agree. BUT, the church leadership has failed in their responsibilities and the failures are not mistakes, they are deliberate lies and cover-ups--making this a bad situation all around.

Crimes ARE different in their weights whether we as Christians treat the people the same or not, we MUST obey the laws of the land and WE MUST NOT BE DUMB AND NOT PROTECT OUR MEMBERS. ESPECIALLY CHILDREN WHO CANNOT DEFEND THEMSELVES.

 

Absolutely, Nicole, I will have her read this entire string and I'm sure you will be hearing from her. Like you, she was abused and felt the same way, that marriages were to last forever regardless of how many times you were hit. People who have NOT been through this, or seen the results, cannot relate. It is easy to say, just move out. In reality, it is a WHOLE different world. She has physical problems now as a result and it may be a few days because yesterday she went to the doctor and does not feel so hot today. It comes and goes when she feels like getting on her computer. But, I will sure pass this along.
It is a sad fact--there are so many people who do NOT have an understanding of abuse whether it be spousal or child. Without that experience they don't seem to care and it is hard to get support--PLUS, when you have problems with your children as a direct result, they start pointing at your (my) life and saying that we are just as bad because we can't control our children. --We got a lot of that (all second hand of course, they won't tell you to your face they are wimps.)
Yes, there is a God given motherly instinct. The pastor told my wife she was all wrong to tell a 27 year old boy to quit trying to run away with my 14 year old daughter when she told him "You're a dead duck if you do." She really got jumped for that remark. I told her not to sweat it because that is a figure of speech and I would have told him the same thing. You are a good person and I will have her read this as soon as she feels well. You think I'm angry about this man and church. You haven't seen ANYTHING yet. hehe
Have a good week.

 

Hmmmmm. Interesting ideas. The church is located in a downtown area and over 70% of the cars park on city streets allowing access without getting on church property. How about putting fliers on all the windshields which include copied statements out of the court records? They have two morning services where cars are parked up and down the city streets and in other parking lots. I think I would stay off of church property just to stay safe. 70% would cause enough people to start talking considering probably only about 5% know anything of the case.