"MARK" of the Beast (bring calculator)

The verse you say is not a part of the ten commandments, isn't, you are correct there, but it is in the Bible, and it is God's word for us today.
When God said comeout my people, He did not mean come out away from my people. But a call of His people out of what is worldly. You have seperated yourself from God's people. You have tried to put yourself above everyone else who is also a christian, you have said they are not good enough for you to be a part of. Your going to share heaven with those same people. If they aren't good enough here, they aren't ever going to be. Your opinions aboput the body of Christ are not biblical. How can you claim to love the brethen if you don't want to be around them. Loving them would mean willing to accept them even if they are not perfect. It seems you are the one who has judged, you have judged the body not worthy of you. All christians are in the body, not just a select few.
If some of your ideas are not biblical, Jesus did not guide you to them. As much as you like to think He has.

 

Don,

Thats a better argument, I wish we could just discuss it, so I appreciate your response as well. I don't see Ken justifying divorice, I see him trying to make a point in what he was accused as saying. But also keep in mind He's not seeing the concrete meaning but he was sharing the similitude. Did you know that a similitudes solid form is a substitute? So if God say He spoke to the prophets multiplying their visions and used similitudes to take it and solidify it is a substitute for whats really being talked about. So to say Ken is speaking of sexual relations is missing what he's sharing. Your looking at it concretely Hes not see?

Now were getting somewhere with looking at Wisdom, I see the verses presented thats good, do you understand why Wisdom is called Sister and understanding Kinswoman? Because in these verses by themselves she "cries, and uttereth her voice", you call her "who she is" and she's "justified of her children".

Now look at that... what is that saying? So yes "her children" but can we dig deeper is what I'm saying. Can it be presented to you in any other way yet still say the same thing . Having all the other peices in place?

1Corinth 1:30 Christ is unto "us" (His church) the Wisdom of God

So if Christ is the Wisdom of God and in Ephes 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly [places] might be known by the church the "manifold" wisdom of God,

Sevenfold Spirit of God?

He who overcomes will He make a "pillar" in the Temple of God?

I'm actually not good at the "number thing" I personally try to read the scriptures and gain understanding through comparing spiritual truths, so I can just roughly "peice" because I'm unfamiliar to this sort of thing.

My ? marks are trying to "peice" but I haven't disgarded, just testing it see?

So I see what Wisdom is I see it at First being Christ Himself (He) but here its a "She" if I look through the epistles that which we are made unto (In Him) is the Wisdom of God, I can now UNDERSTAND the "she" Hewning her seven pillars, I see Seven churches, the Sevenfold spirit of God (?) I'm lost truthfully but because I'm still trying to understand and its not clear but I can see that some peices could really be put together here in how everything seems to relate, I'm not going to call it false.

I'm showing you how I begin to "think on these things"... Obviouslly I don't know, but this is how something begins to build, I see a few things, I sit them in the back of my mind and something will begin to "click" I'll add to it as it grows. Thats how the picture of Christ I posted (as Abel) was built. Just peices... I didn't know where it was going but eventually understanding came in regards to it.

So its obvios to me you yourself drew the connection to something in the gospels, "Wisdom is justified of her children" so you can easily see how peices can be put together for a greater understanding. But in the verses alone in Wisdom does not tell you anything on "how to use it" or what it is exactly and conflicts with Christ (He) being the Wisdom of God, but in considering the "full" consel of God its begining to make sense, do you get what I'm saying?

Its starts with a passage, Wisdom speaks to me (personally) of Christ (One person), I'm looking at "She" saying to myself how do I "recconcile this"? I search I see that He is made unto "us" Wisdom. Just like the Sword that would peirce the Soul of Mary (in one person) that the thoughts of MANY might be revealed, that sword of the Spirit finds its fulfillment in the Church again. Twofold.

I'm sharing all this so you can see openly how I reason with the scriptures and recconcile them. Sometimes as we familiarize ourselves with something it becomes more evident to the sharer but strange to the hearer because the following of ones thoughts on how they drew that conclusion aren't seen.

I remember having the most difficult time showing Christ as Abel until all the peices were established, there was still things to recconcile, me and Ken differ on that, He sees Him as being Cain, I can't draw that conclusion but stay open to what he's sharing because it also says somewhere that ALL THINGS are summed up in Christ, so if one can present their case i'm open to "consider it", it doesn't threaten my understanding its just seeing "the other side of things" I don't need to discard what I know to be true to accept another picture, I just ponder them if I'm blessed I'm blessed if not I'm not and I let it go.

See where I'm coming from now?

In Him Kim

 

Katie

Your missing the whole point, I was asked to honor God (being poor) in a baptist church with my clothes I stood judged by them, I have shared on other threads why I was asked to leave I don't enjoy repeating the story. I can come here and fellowship with someone who is "different" from me, theres no problem, your asked to leave the church if you see something different from others so that doesn't stand in light of my situation.

ENCOURAGE one another not forsaking the assembling together of yourselves NOT devour and bite each other to death. So I don't judge anyone I just couldn't hear my sheperds voice among the many voices not lifting Christ up. I expect no one to be perfect but most importantly my call is to follow HIM seek HIM, to hear HIS voice. I couldn't hear the love of God nor was I showed it where I happened to go.

So I have not forsaken "assembling" together of the believers because I meet together in home fellowship with a few other christians. Its very biblical to meet in homes and I'm very happy where I am. But its ok for others even yourself to see something not right and judge it so but not ok for me to see the same thing? Thats a double standard. Jesus Christ was not being preached where I went, I wanted to know Jesus and the joy of fellowshiping and I have that where I am, I'm also here among you guys and I'm not a "baptist". I can get along with people in various denominations, they have their faith according to their present understanding, God teaches them and in time His time they will be where they need to be as He draws them to a better understanding of Himself.

I'm not the one who left the church I was asked to leave for helping a sister in Christ who had a few bucks in her pocket after her husband left her and her five year old daughter.

She was concerned with not having enough to put in the collection plate, I told her that the pastor would understand your in need right now, I took care of this sister and I was reprimanded and ask to leave this church for undermining authority, apparently that pastor really wanted a tenth part of the only $12 this mother had to her name, I was sure that could not be true, unfortunately it was. Before God that is a true story. These type of things should not happen. It was a part of a church that divided among themselves and broke up into separate fellowship groups, opening your home freely was not an option apparently though I opened my home freely. So I'm out. There are tons of stories like dropping my wedding check to a pastor I thought would help the needy but it bought Him a new deck for His house. I myself only had a mattress on the floor of a one bedroom apartment, I wasn't well off, but if I had know that which I entrusted to Him in regards to money wouldn't be used as I desired I would have taken it personally to someone in need. Shall I go on? Besides these things I cannot see Jesus sorry, consider me then as a new christian and Gods love really wasn't obvious, judge me as you will.

Now in time after giving myself to the Lord and more equipped to deal with the mass confusion being rooted and grounded in love, I can walk without being blown around and stand confidently by faith, but I was losing my mind with the bickering, quarreling, judgement, "this is false" thats false" I hadn't a chance to know Christ because they were lifting up everything BUT Him.

I don't know, you say they were? Were you there Katie? My reasons were my own, you haven't walked a mile in my sandals. If everyones running around screaming anti Christ and expressing no faith and looking at everything with evil suspicion how can I see the Love of Christ, sound mind and confidence in Christ? Sorry but a new christian needs stability, encouragement, and to grow in knowledge to come to the full measure of faith. I saw n faith there. When someone elses nuttiness starts becoming your own, I personally back off. Right or wrong God correct me but I felt it did me good not harm. I went home and ever since I find delight in His word, no one "sees" me I'm not doing anything "before" men.

I'm not the one saying to others "I have no need of you" or that you or anyone else is "not a part" on the contrary just the opposite is true, I'm just the one who has the inditements against me because others in a "group" cannot possibly be wrong".

But I'm very content with the fellowship I have and have no problems moving beyond the borders and having fellowship with others, But fellowship to me is a participation in the body of Christ as each part builds itself up in love and knowledge and the like we come together and share the blessings bestowed on each other. Sitting on a pew bench for 45 minutes is not my idea of fellowship, I personally am blessed more through the body parts that aren't standing in the pulpit but those who are seated in the pew. Unfortunately I hear very little from them. I reccognize this in many that are not "ordained" but apparently without the paperwork... well you know what I mean. I'm not here to justify myself before you really, so you must judge as you see it and in the way you feel led to, I won't argue with you. You believe what you believe based on whatever knowledge you have been given light on. Walk in that in as far as that will take you. I'm not being sarcastic either, Walk according to the light you have, and the knowledge you have and in accordance to the measure of faith measured to you. They can only grow.

In Him Kim

[ April 24, 2002, 11:37 AM: Message edited by: Star ]

 

We happen to be the poorest family in our church. The first day I wen to church I didn't have anything to wear, I wore an old pair of print pants, and a turtle neck, the only half decent out fit I owned. everything else was hand me downs, and wore out. So I know it's not enough to stop someone, I wasn't even a christian then, and it still didn't stop me. We go to the biggest church in our little town, so you can imagine what most of the other people look like, I don't really care.

Maybe you should have tried another church. You can't say Jesus isn't being preached in every church.
Seems like you've judged the whole of christianity by a few people in one church. I am sorry you had a bad experience, but you can not blame all of christanity for it. The body being together as a whole is bilical, seperation from the body is not. There is much fellowship in church, not just sitting in a pew. If you were not a part of anything, then maybe you should have sought to join in with other christians to fellowship to serve. In a different church, seems like that one had some problems. We have tiems of just fellowship in our church,a nd times of worship. And a lot of the time they are at the same tiem. Our sunday school class has had in the past(we are restarting this so that we can have more fellowship together, and more bible study), dinners at a members home, and discussion on our weekly lessons, with added bible study. We have church picnics, and and even on occasion group outings, there is a lot we do that is aimed at fellowship and ministry through fellowship at church, in addition to all the other ministries we do.
You talk about judgeing, but you do a lot of it yourself.

So did the pastor just take your check and cash it and use all of it for his deck or what? Or did he happen to get a deck on his house and you think he took your money to do it with. Did they not have any finacial accountability to the church for the money given to the church? I mean like business meetings with a finacial report available to all?

 

You still don't get it, do you? Not everything in the Bible is a similitude. You've admitted that yourself before.

What we had here was a concrete saying; Ken has interjected a similitude into it. To reach Ken's point, he's necessarily had to ignore the true meaning of one word which puts the exception into context. His ignoring the true meaning of that word changes the context of the passage, and then supports what he's saying about love. The passage, with its literal interpretation, doesn't support his position in any way, shape, or form.

That's poor support and interpretation, even if the premise were acceptable, because he had to "tweak" scripture to make it work. And that, even in it's most simplest form, is abomination.

You can't take a concrete, and make it an abstract, simply because you want it to be. As I said before, there are abstracts in the bible; but there are also absolutes (concretes, if you will). True interpretation identifies which is which, instead of assigning all absolutes or all abstracts.

I'm sorry you refuse to open your eyes to this, Star.

[ April 24, 2002, 05:43 PM: Message edited by: Don ]

 

As for the other banalities that were posted just above my last post, please allow me point out a few things:

Wear rags to church? Sure, why not?

Don't pass a plate or put up an offering box? Not very intelligent. Somehow, you've got to pay the rent; you've got to support missionaries who are called by God to other regions, countries, etc.; you've got to ensure that when a member of the body has a financial need, it can be met.

Most people don't acknowledge young adults? Don't know which churches y'all have been visiting, but it sure ain't been any of the ones I have--and, being in the military, I've had the opportunity to visit a LOT. Young adults are the lifeblood of a church, and of the body; every church I've ever visited knew this.

Get them to give their lives to Christ? Golly gee willikers, that's the whole point! But what better way to help them keep growing in Christ, and staying with Christ, than to be associated with a group of like-minded believers--which is sometimes known as a "church"?

Remember what happens to a coal if it's separated from the rest of the fire....

What does perfect liberty in Christ mean? The weak-faith Christian will tell you that you can't do certain things. The moderate-faith Christian knows that liberty in Christ means you know that the kingdom of heaven doesn't consist of meat and drink (Colossians 2:16, Romans 14:17); however, this is where the moderate-faith Christian stops.

The strong-faith Christian knows that it also means that you refuse to do anything that causes a brother or sister to stumble, including not eating meat or drinking (Romans 14:21). The strong-faith Christian understands that it means that yes, we are indeed our brother's keeper (Romans 15:1-3)

Know the truth and it will set you free? Kind of hard to swallow, considering that the individual who stated this above has a habit of taking verses out of context, and re-defining words to meet his personal beliefs....

 

Know the facts before you post foolishly. Christ gave his life for the church.
Acts 20:17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

Note carefully verse 28. Paul admonishes the elders (pastors) to feed the church of God, which he has purchased with his own blood. What is he talking of here. There is nothing in this context to suggest that he is talking of anything else but the church in Ephesus. He goes right on to say that grievous wolves will enter in (the church for which he died), not sparing the flock. Christ died for every Bible-believing local church that teaches and preaches His Word

Every New Testament epistle was either written to a local church assembly or a pastor of a local church. They were never written to the "church" or the "universal church." God demands of every person to be a member of a local body of believers.

Heb. 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

John in the book of Revelation speaks of seven churches that Jesus wrote to. Paul went on three missionary journeys and in those three journeys established approximately 100 churches. God has ordained the local church as his instrument for disseminating the Word of God.

1 Tim. 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

The local church is the pillar of the truth. It upholds the truth, as the pillar of the building upholds the building. It is the local church that proclaims the truth to its community and to the world at large by carrying out the Great Commission. It is a pillar of the truth.
It is the ground of the truth. It has as its very foundation the Word of God, the truth.

1Cor.3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

This is our foundation: Jesus Christ, who also said, "I am the truth." The local church is built on the foundation of truth.

Eph.4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

This is what Christ gave to the local church, and is what every local church is built on. God uses men. He uses teachers. He uses pastors. He uses evangelists. You are not an island. No man lives unto himself, the Bible says. You need the local church. The local church does not need you, but it will accept you.

2Tim.2:2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

This is God's method of spiritual reproduction. Paul says to Timothy, the pastor of the church at Ephesus, to teach faithful men, who in turn will teach other faithful men, who in turn will teach other faithful men and so on. God uses the local church. God uses godly men in the local church. To advocate staying away from a church that teaches the Word of God is as good as heresy.
DHK

 

My 2 cents: Well, unfortunately, there are some rotten apples and maybe some rotten pastors now and then. But that doesn't mean every church is bad.

In fact, I've been to churches who even tell people when they pass the offering plate if you need money, feel free to take some out as it goes by! LOL! For real! The fundamental churches I know FEED & CLOTHE the poor, not make fun of them.

Most Baptist churches have business meetings where the members get a look at the church books/i.e. treasurer's report, so the membership can see how and where the money is being spent...no pastor's getting decks built out of the church funds. No new cars and no fancy boats. In fact, I know a lot of pastors who are underpaid and even some have to have other jobs, too. And I've been a member of big Southern Baptist Churches, small to medium sized Independent Baptist churches, a large AG church, and back in my 20s, a nondenominational Jesus Movement church reaching drug addicts and hippies. Different parts of the country, too. Haven't run across any like you've described, Star. A church family is something very special. I hope you can find that, too.

So, I feel sorry that you had a bad experience. I pray you will find the truth and be healed from your scars/bad experience and that you will find a good church home where you will be loved, accepted, mentored, and grounded in the Word.

 

Katie,

I was one year old in the Lord its not that I was built up in knowledge or had any understanding, I just saw mass confusion. I wasn't at the point where I could see anything clearly, much less had been edified by others, or built up in anything ressembling love only judgement. I must of stopped in a more then five churches, the first one was the one I tolf you about with the "dress up" thing in honoring God (baptist) not allowed to talk so I didn't say anything, just felt it was wrong and really didn't feel that great about what was called fellowship. The other I was asked to leave because the pastor wanted the poor womans money, I know in my heart I did what was right. The other was the one who took my money, I read in scripture that it was for the needs of others... boy was I wrong, He announced that he had enough money thanks to me (announcing the gift in front of everyone- thanks alot) for His deck. I certainly did not know about "financial responsibility" of an institution if I was that young in Christ, I was seeking Him and trying to do right by the examples in His word, my gulibleness was believing that all served Him. A lesson well learned, no harm done really even the bad God turns for good and I've learned through it.

I thought Paul was a tentmaker? I'm not too sure but He also said something about not taking his rights in recieving wages. He seemed to be one who worked with his own hands but I'm just recalling that off the top of my head not really sure. But I don't care either way really.

You say I talk alot about judging, I'm "recalling" my FIRST YEAR at church 13 years ago so if you want to call that being judgemental "now" I suppose you would jump on the occasion to do so. I had said in my previous post I have no problems fellowship with various faiths in Christ, people don't offend me in that way. If I hated christians I certainly wouldn't gather in my home with them but perhaps you just overlooked the fact that I'm speaking of past experiences. I'm very content in my fellowship, its a real blessing to me now, it just was not back then.

The Church is a people and where two or three are gathered there He is so where I am now is perfect, I truly love fellowship because for the first time in my life submission is not something read off the pages and "demanded of" its something born out of great love and honor within me that does it without a thought. Very beautiful people in Christ, just crazy about the scriptures and love to see Him in both the scriptures and each other, I can't help but embrace that. I feel very blessed in the fellowship I have, so no qualms whatsover. My first year as a Christian I wouldn't want to repeat, But God brought me to a great place and knitted me together with some beautiful believers in Jesus and I'm truly thankful for those he has placed with me and can be thankful for those in Christ that are different from me, I respect the differences and agree to agree on Christ alone, thats all

In Him Kim

 

I knew there was a heart in Eaglelives Thanks for the words (I think we were posting about the same time) No scars only lessons learned. No grudges just reflecting, God answered your prayer years ago, I some wonderful brothers in Christ I would die for, God was mindful toward me and gave me wonderful Christian freinds who definately refresh my spirit in Him What a heavenly drink that is!

So I'm not drowning in my sorrows (been there done that) those things are behind me, He is before me (though that may be debatable in the eyes of others) I'm not too concerned. Thanks for the note though.

In Him Kim

 

So are you done with me, Star?

 

Don, I for one hope that Star is not done answering your posts. You have been right on target with every argument and have demonstrated their errors with a surgeon’s precision.

My hat is off to you and I have enjoyed reading your posts in defense of the truth in these matters with Ken and Star. You have far more patience than I or most folks here.

 

No Don I haven't finished with you I just posted two seconds ago on another board. If God said He spoke by the prophets multiplying visions and using similitudes then let me ask you where do you draw the line? Its not like He said I have spoken literally and used similitudes. I may stop at Joe begat sue begat sam begat fred, doesn't really matter in the geoneolgy dept.

I hear your argument, and I understand it but God has showed how He has spoken by the prophets, do I lay that down because your convinced otherwise? If Christ can be the Rock of offense, stone for stumbling. He came to His own initiating the drinking of blood and of flesh strictly off limits to the jews and many turned back because of the things He spoke concerning Himself in various ways.

As Moses lifted up the Serpent so must I be lifted up. Come on, now seeing what they saw I don't think I being a Jew would have excepted Christ if my allegiance was to the law and the teachers of it and in the forbidden things shown in there as relating to my messiah. So I cannot say I would have not been like my forefathers in that way I'd be lying.

I'm allowed to "look" and test, its my right to do that. Do I see this particular one at this point? Not at all, but I do know one thing many have tested out beautifully as I hang in there with them.

I don't see as you have put it that Ken is "justifying" divorice, it happens, it simply does, divorice stinks I'm was a child of divorice and it ripped me apart when I was younger I know this, nor would I say to someone "get a divorice" but my father left my mother for another woman. Divorice was simply a matter of signing the "paperwork" my mother could refuse all she wanted and held "marraige" up in the standard that it was meant to be, either way My father who has spent the last 40 years in love with this woman, I myself know they are in love utterly and completely to this day.

Now my mom isn't going to get Him back despite whether she signed off on the paperwork, she could have refused but she took the wrong, shes not guilty of the divorice, He cheated on Her, she stayed home and took care of us. In reality if she did not sign off (on the papers alone) it would be because of her own bitterness not for the sake of righteousness, so I can see that principle, she let Him go. He was already gone, papers or not He belonged to another.

Did I hit every point? I'm very tired this evening, running around with a toddler and posting through wee hours of the morning is catching up with me.

In Him Kim

 

Post it, no I'm not, I just posted, I'm beat and hitting the sack.

In Him Kim

 

So Star, was what your father did with that other woman, while still married to your mother, agape love, or illicit sexual intercourse?

Does the passage in Matthew read "if a man puts aside his wife, except it be for agape-type love, he commits adultery" or is it "if a man puts aside his wife, except it be for illicit sexual intercourse, he commits adultery"?

Which is it?

Oh, and divorce doesn't "just happen." Look to the passage in Matthew 19 again, and you'll see that Jesus was condemning the men who asked Him about divorce ("Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.").

What's happened is that we've become just like the Pharisees of the time, and we've allowed divorce to "just happen." From the beginning, it was not so.

And, I'm sorry to say, if your attitude is that "divorce just happens," then your attitude reflects a spirit that justifies divorce instead of honoring marraige.

As for everything being a similitude: Is the passage I asked you to try to explain--Proverbs 26:4-5 a similitude?

Is the story of the birth of Christ a similitude?

Is Luke 7:36-50 a similitude?

How about Psalm 117? Is that a similitude?

If you're seeing similitudes in everything, then Star, I humbly submit that you're missing some of the finer points of what the Bible really has to say....

 

Seven page warning gang. It gets closed at eight.

Clint Kritzer
Moderator

[ April 25, 2002, 08:39 AM: Message edited by: Clint Kritzer ]

 

Aw, Clint. What happened to ten?!?

(actually, this should have been closed at three, shouldn't it?)

 

PostIt, I think I sent you a private message. Would you check, please?

If I didn't, let me know and I'll get hold of you.