Temper, temper.....
Why? Does the Nicene Creed have any more credence than Fortran IV? Neither one will prove that RCC is founded on Christ. The RCC is not a Christian Church, never has been a Christian, and never will be. A Christian church is one that preaches the gospel; the RCC does not.
A Christian church believes that Christ died for their sins; the RCC does not--thus the belief in purgatory.
The anger, resentment, and outright lies in this post are astonishing!
First, the Nicene Creed...
We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, light from light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
and became truly human.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father [and the Son],
who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.
Now, for the "unofficial" Ind. Bap. beliefs (also referred to as a Statement of Faith).....
1. We believe in the verbal inspiration and authority of the scriptures. The King James Version of the Bible is the only version used at Independent Baptist Church and it's ministries. We believe that the Bible reveals God, the fall of man, the way of salvation, and God's plan and purpose for the ages to come.
2. We believe that there is one God, eternally existent in three Persons:
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
3. We believe in the Deity and Virgin Birth of our Lord Jesus Christ, in His sinless life, in His miracles, in His vicarious and atoning death through His shed blood, in His bodily resurrection, and in His ascension to the right hand of the Father.
4. We believe in the visible, personal and premillennial return of Jesus Christ.
5. We believe that salvation is "by grace" plus or minus nothing. The conditions for salvation are repentance and faith in Jesus Christ.
6. We believe that man is sinful and, thereby, separated from God. He is justified by faith alone and accounted righteous before God only through the merit of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
7. We believe in the resurrection of both the saved and the lost: the saved unto the resurrection of life; and the lost unto the resurrection of the damnation.
8. We believe in the eternal security of the believer in Christ.
9. We believe in the local church with its ordinances of baptism by immersion and the Lord's Supper.
Excluding the minor differences of eternal security and "faith alone" they seem pretty much the same. To state that the Nicene Creed doesn't offer support for the RCC being founded on Christ also nullifies your own "Statement of Faith". So, we're back to Square 1 on that.
I am also very sorry that you are so uninformed as to think that the RCC doesn't preach the Gospel. It does, and therefore is a Christian Church. Actually, the FIRST Christian Church. I urge you to show me any other Christian denomination that precedes the dates of the Catholic Church. I
do have an exhaustive list here, so be careful.
And the outright, bald-faced lies that you spread are insulting to not just me, but everyone on here.
You state,
"A Christian church believes that Christ died for their sins; the RCC does not--thus the belief in purgatory."
Please RE-READ VERY CAREFULLY the Nicene Creed. And I quote -
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
and became truly human.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures
Hmmm....sounds like we DO believe Christ died for our sins after all!!! Purgatory has nothing to do with our "salvation" in the sense that God has saved us from the eternal damnation of Hell.
And I guess we don't have to. You presume upon yourself too much. We don't have any crosses in our church, and would never have them. None of our people would ever wear a cross as a piece of jewelry. 50 years ago you would never find a cross on a Protestant church--a steeple maybe, but not a cross. A cross is a Catholic symbol; not a Christian symbol. If Christianity has a symbol it is the empty tomb, not the cross. We serve a risen Saviour; not a dead Christ!!
Actually, I used to live near a Baptist church. They had a cross on their building. OUTSIDE!!! And I have seen several other Baptist churches, including Independent, that have crosses and the like on their buildings and signs. To say that the cross is a Catholic symbol is correct - the Catholic Church was the FIRST Christian church. If you want to put up an empty tomb, by all means, feel free. But the cross is not a symbol of a dead Christ, as you have so eloquently put it, but a reminder of what He has done for us because He loves us so much. The Catholics had it's present version of the cross way, way before any Protestant came along and decided to change it. And before you make the arguement that we still have Him on the cross let me just tell you that you are wrong. It is, once again, a reminder of what He has done for us.
Concerning kneeling, did it not ever occur to you that kneeling is a posture that we take when praying to God. "Kneeling in prayer to God" The difference is that we don't kneel in front of a statue, an idol like Mary, etc. Unlike the RCC, we do not commit idolatry.
Kneeling is simply a sign of respect. Your arguement about this is so narrow-minded I can't even begin to reply to you. You wouldn't listen anyhow.
That is exactly what idolatry is. The visualization of the god that is behind the idol. When a Hindu bows down before one of its many gods, he is not worshipping the actual piece of wood or metal, but rather the "god" or demon that it represents--its visualization as you say. You do the same thing with Mary. It is pure idolatry.
Idolatry is not the "visualization" of anything. It is worshipping someething or someone that is not God. No Catholic does this. How many times do I have to say that??? And I NEVER said visualization, you did. And if someone is worshipping Buddha then, yeah, that's idolatry; N
NE IS WORSHIPPING MARY.
Catholics like to force a different meaning of tradition into this word than that which the context would have it mean.
A Catholic encyclopedia tells us that tradition is oral or written teaching that is handed down from generation to generation throughout the centuries.
(That's the concise version). But the important thing to note that it is teaching that is handed down from generations throughout the centuries. Now tell me? How many centuries had passed from the death of Christ til the time that Paul wrote that statement to Timothy. Christ died 29 A.D. 2Thessalonians was written no later than 53 A.D. How much tradition, in the classic definition of the word--the way that Catholics define it--took place in the 24 years between the death of Christ and the time of the writing of that epistle. Your argument holds no water. The word "tradition" simply refers to the teaching--teaching from the Word of God--that Paul had given Timothy. There was no tradition in the sense that you define it. What kind of tradition can accrue in 24 years??
DHK
If the tradition is the same as was in those 20 or 30 years, then why is time a factor at all?! To say that the earth is round one day after Columbus proved so is the same as saying it's round today. An apple falling on Newton's head so many years ago is the same as it would be today if he were still alive, or falling on anyone else's head at any time. IF THE TEACHING IS THE SAME, TIME IS NOT AN ISSUE. And if Paul found things important enough to share with Timothy as orally back then, why should they not be important still today.
Slowly, I am coming to the realization that your IBC affiliation is very comfortable for you, and the "easiest" road to heaven in your mind. Nothing is ever going to change that for you because you couldn't even fathom being uncomfortable. It's very easy to just say, "I'm right! You're wrong! You shall burn in hell as a heretic! I am going ot heaven because this is how I see the Bible!", and not show proof. I hate to burst your bubble, but that's not how it truly is.
[ March 25, 2004, 02:26 AM: Message edited by: frozencell ]
