Can Christians respect atheists?

Break a leg, tulpje[/QUOT

Well, these are Christ's comands. To "go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation," and to, "make disciples of all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father and Son and HOly Spirit." It's called the "Great commision." Otherwise I wouldn't be here. It's amazing, first of all, that I have to tell this to a Christian woman, and then for her to come back with such a snotty remark. Notice how patiently I explained it to you the first time. Obviosly it was something you did not know. I would have been grateful for the better understanding of Christ's commands coming from someone who had a greater understanding than I. That is how we grow in Christ-that and being in fellowship with other Christians(in real life)You said, "I would never tell someone with conviction that they are going to Hell. Regardless of their religion or beliefs or sexual orientation, you name it." Is that loving? Not caring whether or not someone was heading toward damnation? Yet, evangelism is the fruit of the Spirit... curious

 

These kinds of remarks are pitiful & inflammatory, not the basis of good debate or discussion, IMHO, on any board, let alone this one. Perhaps there is more TROLLING going on?

Mary: Is it time to shake the dust on this thread, too?
</font>[/QUOTE]She actually suggested that? I don't know Eagle. It hurts that I am trying to express to them the love of Christ and we are insulted so badly. </font>[/QUOTE]When you can try and drop your self-righteous dog and pony show, you might be able to get people to understand your a little bit better and accept what you have to say.</font>[/QUOTE]Self righteous dog and pony show? But the Lord says that it is the righteous who will inherit the kingdom of God. We are made righteous through the blood of Christ. All our sins have been washed away.

 

It's nice to know that you have no fear of the LOrd and do not believe in hell or heaven.

In my catechism, every explanation to every commandment starts with these words: We are to fear and love God...

1. We are to fear and love and trust God above all things

2. We are to fear and love God so that we do not curse, swear, practice magic, lie or decieve using God's name. Instead we are to use that very name in every time of need to call on, pray to, praise and give thanks to God.

3.We are to fear and love God so that we do not despise God's word or preaching, but instead keep that word holy and gladly learn it.(hope you are paying attention to that one)

4. We are to fear and love God so that we neither despise nor anger our parents and others in authority, but instead honor, serve, obey, and respect them.

5. We are to fear and love God so that we neither endanger nor harm the lives of our neighbors, but instead help and support them in all lifes needs.

6. We are to fear and love God so that we live pure and decent lives in word and deed, and each of us honors his or her spouse.

7. We are to fear and love God so that we neither take our neighbors money or property nor use shoddy merchandise or crooked deals to obtain it for ourselves, but instead help them improve their property and income.

8. We are to fear and love God so that we do not tell lies about our neighbors, betray or slander them, or destroy their reputations, instead we are to speak well of them and interpret everything they do in the best possible light.

9. We are to fear and love God so that we do not try to trick our neighbors out of their property or inheiritance or try to get it for ourselves by claiming to have a legal right to it and the like, but instead be of help and service to them in keeping what is theirs.

10. We are to fear and love God so that we do not entice, force or steal away from our neighbors, their spouses, workers or livestock, but instead urge them to stay and remain loyalto our neighbors.

We are to fear his punishment for unrepentant sin, and love him enough to obey his commandments.

 

Hahaha that is the second use of the law-to mirror our sins. Just like when you wake up in the morning and you look in the mirror and you say-Gee my hair is a mess, I better comb it. The law acts as a mirror to our actions refecting and showing us our sin. In this case you are speaking of the law that is written in your heart.

Romans 2:15
since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

The first use of the law is for non believers only. The second use of the law is for non-believers and believers a like. The third us of the law is only for believers. That is we use it as a guide in our daily lives. We obey the law not because we HAVE to, but because we WANT to.</font>[/QUOTE]You have the incredible ability of taking something very simple and using Scripture to make it very difficult and complex. How do you do it? </font>[/QUOTE]You have an incedible ability to put down everything i say And an invredible hatred for God's word. Can't you say, "Thank you. Now I understand," instead of critisizing what I am trying to explain to you?

 

Hahaha that is the second use of the law-to mirror our sins. Just like when you wake up in the morning and you look in the mirror and you say-Gee my hair is a mess, I better comb it. The law acts as a mirror to our actions refecting and showing us our sin. In this case you are speaking of the law that is written in your heart.

Romans 2:15
since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

The first use of the law is for non believers only. The second use of the law is for non-believers and believers a like. The third us of the law is only for believers. That is we use it as a guide in our daily lives. We obey the law not because we HAVE to, but because we WANT to.</font>[/QUOTE]You have the incredible ability of taking something very simple and using Scripture to make it very difficult and complex. How do you do it? </font>[/QUOTE]You have an incedible ability to put down everything i say And an invredible hatred for God's word. Can't you say, "Thank you. Now I understand," instead of critisizing what I am trying to explain to you?</font>[/QUOTE]Tulpje,
Are you looking for some special pats on the back or something to make you feel important? We can agree to disagree on anything we want.Please go back and re-read the mission statement when entering this board. It says your opinions will be challenged, if you can't handle that then deal with it. I have absolutely no hatred for God's word and if that is all you've gathered from my posts then I suggest you go back and re-read and listen more carefully. Am I snotty? I wouldn't use that phrase specifically since I am not a child but I tend to respond to your close-minded comments in the same lingo you use in hope that you can understand where I'm coming from. I wouldn't want to leave you anymore confused than you already claim to be.</font>[/QUOTE]Absolutely, I know the mission statement. And NO I am NOT looking for a pat on the back, just for a Christian woman, you seem to be incredibly hostile toward anything that has to do with the Bible or God and the things he tells us in the Bible. When someone helps me learn something that I didn't know... patiently and with kindness explains things to me that I obviously don't understand, I am grateful and I say, "Thank you." I am always eager to learn about God's plan for us... Which is contrary to what I see in your posts. In fact, I would say that there two types of people on this board-two camps if you will, the ones who are spreading God's word *remember the great commision and what all Christians are called to do?) and those who are here disputing it. I would say tht for a Christian woman that you are on the wrong team.

 

Ok, I guess death camps aren't a good analogy since Jews probably weren't set free if they renounced their faith.

But what about this:

And this:

I think it is against this board's rules to give links to the anti-Christian sites that said that though.

So the same thing could be said in those examples - those Christians mightn't want people to die - they'd rather the people converted.

You said before:
"God is not choosing to burn you in hell. It is your choice."

In the same way, it isn't the Christians choice to massacre those who don't repent... it is the choice of the unrepentant.

So do you think that God's ultimatum is different from the one that Charlemagne apparently gave the Saxon rebels? Of course, it isn't a Christian thing to do to threaten people with death, but on the other hand, that is what God is doing.</font>[/QUOTE]I do not understand why you are bringing Charlemagne into this. Wasn't he at war? You are making me wish that I had my old Western Civ book. Chances are that Charlemagne couldn't read the scriptures even if he HAD a bible and priests back then were corrupt... men used to hide their daughters from them so that they wouldn't take them. Furthermore, I'm a sinner, and you are a sinner, and so was Charlemagne.

Let me show you what the conditions were like in the early 16th century and the quality of pastoral care people were getting....

Luther's preface to the Small Catechism 1529:

Martin Luther, to all the faithful and upright pastors and preachers: Grace mercy and peace in Jesus Christ our Lord.

The deplorable, wretched conditions that I recently encountered while I was a visitor have constrained and compelled me to prepare this catechism, or Christian instruction, in such a brief, plaun and simple version. Dear God, what misery I beheld! The ordinary person, especially in the villages, knows absolutely nothing about the Christian faith, and unfortunately many pastors are completely unskilled and incompetant teachers. Yet they are all suppose to bear the name Christain, to be baptized, and to recieve the Holy Sacrament, even though they do not know the Lord's Prayer, the Creed, or the Ten Commandments! As a result, they live like simple cattle or irrational pigs and despite the fact that the Gospel has returned, have mastered the fine art of misusing all of their freedom....

It goes on for 4 more pages, but I think you get the idea.

 

Joseph Botwinick:
I'm an atheist BTW. My point was that tulpje was saying that it is people's *choice* whether we go to hell or not. And atheists could possibly delude themselves into believing if they really wanted to. (If they hired professional brain-washers, etc)
But on the other hand, those who were sent to the death camps were often sent there because of genetic reasons that were totally impossible to change. (At least it is theoretically possible for atheists to become Christians)

 

Joseph Botwinick:
This is basically what I said earlier...

Many Christians think that hell is a perfectly just punishment for non-believers, since God is apparently perfectly just.

And Nazi-sympathizers would believe that death camps are a fair fate for the Jews.

"Are you now stating that atheism is a religion like Judaism?"

I think the Nazi's wanted to kill those of Jewish blood - no matter what their religion was. That's why I said it wasn't a good analogy, because Jews couldn't be saved merely by saying they are Christians.

"So, do you seriously equate Christians with Nazis or are you just goofing off to get a rise out of us?"

Yes, I am equating Christians with Nazi-sympathizers who endorse death camps. Though these people aren't doing the killing or torturing themselves, they are approving of it. And in the case of Christians, they're saying that it is a perfectly just and fair fate for non-believers.

 

That's why I said it wasn't a good analogy!!!

A ha! So you are supporting God when he sends those who don't choose the correct religion to hell! e.g. Muslims, Hindus and those who lack a religion would go to hell to suffer in agony eternally.

I said it wasn't a good analogy...

 

The Jews' 'sin' (or fault if you prefer) was being Jewish, and for that Nazis deemed it fit to burn them. My 'sin' (or fault) is that I do not believe that a man named Jesus is God, and for that many Christians deem it fit for me to burn forever. The only difference is, trivially, the word used, in both instances the individuals are being burnt for a facet of themselves that is deemed punishable by fire (Nazis) or fire for eternity (CHristians). A difference that makes no difference is no difference at all.

ALL I want to know is, what is the qualitative difference between the above scenarios that means that it is rational for me to loathe Nazis, but not Christians, to view Nazis as a hateful ememy, but to view Christians of paragons of love?

An attempt has been made, which is unconvincing. One is that it is my choice to burn in hell. This is prima facie absurd, given a choice, I would choose NOT to burn in Hell. But saying it is my choice stems from giving me only 2 options, one of which I cannot choose, I simply cannot choose to believe that Christ was God in the same way that I cannot believe that I have 6 fingers on one hand, this is not exactly a choice then. Secondly, even if I could suddenly believe Christ was God, it then becomes simple blackmail, sorry, people that blackmail me with everlasting pain are my enemy.

The correlation is valid to the extent that I should view both parties as an enemy, and hold them in the same esteem. Let me put my position as basically as I can: ANYONE who thinks it is not only perfectly acceptable, but perfectly just for me to burn in a fire for eternity, whether via agreement with an authority or otherwise, due to a belief that I am unable to change, or for a belief that I could change but would only do so via blackmail, is not only my sworn enemy, but also an individual that must have fundamentally different understandings form moe of many words in the English language, such as Love, Respect, Acceptance, Punishment, Just and Fair.

I would say that this is an appeal to authority, but it's even worse, it's an appeal to an unreferenced authority!

[ March 24, 2002, 10:14 AM: Message edited by: Kachana ]

 

Dear Radiochemist,

If you don't like the moderation of this board, then by all means, you are free to leave. You will not post your mean-spirited drivel on my forums though. If you have a problem, e-mail me in private and I will do the best I can to handle it when I can. This will be your only warning. Next time I will suspend you.

Joseph Botwinick
Moderator

[ March 24, 2002, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: Joseph Botwinick ]