Can Christians respect atheists?

[tulpje]

Originally posted by wishtolearn:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by tulpje:

Originally posted by wishtolearn:
Kachana,
I am a Christian. However most people on this board would argue against that because I havn't been "saved", "slain in the spirit",I don't follow Church law, whatever. My belief in God and Jesus has never wavered even when I was a child, I knew and felt the same as I feel today as a 32 year old woman. I would never tell someone with conviction that they are going to Hell. Regardless of their religion or beliefs or sexual orientation, you name it. Who am I or any human to make that claim. Only God knows the heart of man, not little 'ol me. It absolutely floors me when individuals spend more time quoting Scripture and judging others than they do learning to love their fellow neighbor. I would never try to convince anyone to believe the same as I do as well, that would be foolish and what would I have to gain. You and all other atheists are equal in my mind and are deserving of a rich life as much as the Christian standing next to you. Best wishes.

But, wishtolearn, we have a commandment from God. We call it, "The Great Commission."

Mark 16
15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.

Matthew 28
18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,</font>

Break a leg, tulpje[/QUOT

Well, these are Christ's comands. To "go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation," and to, "make disciples of all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father and Son and HOly Spirit." It's called the "Great commision." Otherwise I wouldn't be here. It's amazing, first of all, that I have to tell this to a Christian woman, and then for her to come back with such a snotty remark. Notice how patiently I explained it to you the first time. Obviosly it was something you did not know. I would have been grateful for the better understanding of Christ's commands coming from someone who had a greater understanding than I. That is how we grow in Christ-that and being in fellowship with other Christians(in real life)You said, "I would never tell someone with conviction that they are going to Hell. Regardless of their religion or beliefs or sexual orientation, you name it." Is that loving? Not caring whether or not someone was heading toward damnation? Yet, evangelism is the fruit of the Spirit... curious

 

[tulpje]

Originally posted by wishtolearn:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by tulpje:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by EagleLives911:
And Clint: Here is what Kachana posted to me, & my post wasn't even directed to Kachana, but in reply to the thread regarding a literal hell!

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Kachana: If you actually believe this should happen to me, I truly, really and honestly see members of the Ku Klux Klan as the nicest, friendliest, most loving and caring individuals in the world compared to you.

These kinds of remarks are pitiful & inflammatory, not the basis of good debate or discussion, IMHO, on any board, let alone this one. Perhaps there is more TROLLING going on?

Mary: Is it time to shake the dust on this thread, too?
</font>[/QUOTE]She actually suggested that? I don't know Eagle. It hurts that I am trying to express to them the love of Christ and we are insulted so badly. </font>[/QUOTE]When you can try and drop your self-righteous dog and pony show, you might be able to get people to understand your a little bit better and accept what you have to say.</font>[/QUOTE]Self righteous dog and pony show? But the Lord says that it is the righteous who will inherit the kingdom of God. We are made righteous through the blood of Christ. All our sins have been washed away.

 

[tulpje]

Originally posted by wishtolearn:
Tulpje, Call me crazy but I think that I would abstain from killing someone not because jail is a scary place, but because I've got this silly little moral streak running thru me. I can't kill a bird let alone a human being. Hell doesn't stop me from doing nasty things to others, the fact that I would make someone hurt emotionally or physically is what stops me and I can't believe that I'm alone in this thought.

It's nice to know that you have no fear of the LOrd and do not believe in hell or heaven.

In my catechism, every explanation to every commandment starts with these words: We are to fear and love God...

1. We are to fear and love and trust God above all things

2. We are to fear and love God so that we do not curse, swear, practice magic, lie or decieve using God's name. Instead we are to use that very name in every time of need to call on, pray to, praise and give thanks to God.

3.We are to fear and love God so that we do not despise God's word or preaching, but instead keep that word holy and gladly learn it.(hope you are paying attention to that one)

4. We are to fear and love God so that we neither despise nor anger our parents and others in authority, but instead honor, serve, obey, and respect them.

5. We are to fear and love God so that we neither endanger nor harm the lives of our neighbors, but instead help and support them in all lifes needs.

6. We are to fear and love God so that we live pure and decent lives in word and deed, and each of us honors his or her spouse.

7. We are to fear and love God so that we neither take our neighbors money or property nor use shoddy merchandise or crooked deals to obtain it for ourselves, but instead help them improve their property and income.

8. We are to fear and love God so that we do not tell lies about our neighbors, betray or slander them, or destroy their reputations, instead we are to speak well of them and interpret everything they do in the best possible light.

9. We are to fear and love God so that we do not try to trick our neighbors out of their property or inheiritance or try to get it for ourselves by claiming to have a legal right to it and the like, but instead be of help and service to them in keeping what is theirs.

10. We are to fear and love God so that we do not entice, force or steal away from our neighbors, their spouses, workers or livestock, but instead urge them to stay and remain loyalto our neighbors.

We are to fear his punishment for unrepentant sin, and love him enough to obey his commandments.

 

[LadyEagle]

Star: I'm not one who believes its a literal fire by the letter of the word which burns you, in fact can anyone provide a verse stating Hell burns you forever?

Jesus said:

Mark 9:[43] And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

[44] Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

[45] And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

[46] Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

[47] And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

[48] Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

---------------------------

Jude [6] And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

[7] Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

---------------------------

Rev. 20:[10] And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Lake of Fire, tormented day and night forever and forever)

[11] And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

[12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

[13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

[14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

[15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[tulpje]

Originally posted by wishtolearn:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by tulpje:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by wishtolearn:
Tulpje, Call me crazy but I think that I would abstain from killing someone not because jail is a scary place, but because I've got this silly little moral streak running thru me. I can't kill a bird let alone a human being. Hell doesn't stop me from doing nasty things to others, the fact that I would make someone hurt emotionally or physically is what stops me and I can't believe that I'm alone in this thought.

Hahaha that is the second use of the law-to mirror our sins. Just like when you wake up in the morning and you look in the mirror and you say-Gee my hair is a mess, I better comb it. The law acts as a mirror to our actions refecting and showing us our sin. In this case you are speaking of the law that is written in your heart.

Romans 2:15
since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

The first use of the law is for non believers only. The second use of the law is for non-believers and believers a like. The third us of the law is only for believers. That is we use it as a guide in our daily lives. We obey the law not because we HAVE to, but because we WANT to.</font>[/QUOTE]You have the incredible ability of taking something very simple and using Scripture to make it very difficult and complex. How do you do it? </font>[/QUOTE]You have an incedible ability to put down everything i say And an invredible hatred for God's word. Can't you say, "Thank you. Now I understand," instead of critisizing what I am trying to explain to you?

 

[wishtolearn]

Originally posted by tulpje:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by wishtolearn:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by tulpje:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by wishtolearn:
Tulpje, Call me crazy but I think that I would abstain from killing someone not because jail is a scary place, but because I've got this silly little moral streak running thru me. I can't kill a bird let alone a human being. Hell doesn't stop me from doing nasty things to others, the fact that I would make someone hurt emotionally or physically is what stops me and I can't believe that I'm alone in this thought.

Hahaha that is the second use of the law-to mirror our sins. Just like when you wake up in the morning and you look in the mirror and you say-Gee my hair is a mess, I better comb it. The law acts as a mirror to our actions refecting and showing us our sin. In this case you are speaking of the law that is written in your heart.

Romans 2:15
since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

The first use of the law is for non believers only. The second use of the law is for non-believers and believers a like. The third us of the law is only for believers. That is we use it as a guide in our daily lives. We obey the law not because we HAVE to, but because we WANT to.</font>[/QUOTE]You have the incredible ability of taking something very simple and using Scripture to make it very difficult and complex. How do you do it? </font>[/QUOTE]You have an incedible ability to put down everything i say And an invredible hatred for God's word. Can't you say, "Thank you. Now I understand," instead of critisizing what I am trying to explain to you?</font>[/QUOTE]Tulpje,
Are you looking for some special pats on the back or something to make you feel important? We can agree to disagree on anything we want.Please go back and re-read the mission statement when entering this board. It says your opinions will be challenged, if you can't handle that then deal with it. I have absolutely no hatred for God's word and if that is all you've gathered from my posts then I suggest you go back and re-read and listen more carefully. Am I snotty? I wouldn't use that phrase specifically since I am not a child but I tend to respond to your close-minded comments in the same lingo you use in hope that you can understand where I'm coming from. I wouldn't want to leave you anymore confused than you already claim to be.

 

[tulpje]

Originally posted by wishtolearn:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by tulpje:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by wishtolearn:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by tulpje:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by wishtolearn:
Tulpje, Call me crazy but I think that I would abstain from killing someone not because jail is a scary place, but because I've got this silly little moral streak running thru me. I can't kill a bird let alone a human being. Hell doesn't stop me from doing nasty things to others, the fact that I would make someone hurt emotionally or physically is what stops me and I can't believe that I'm alone in this thought.

Hahaha that is the second use of the law-to mirror our sins. Just like when you wake up in the morning and you look in the mirror and you say-Gee my hair is a mess, I better comb it. The law acts as a mirror to our actions refecting and showing us our sin. In this case you are speaking of the law that is written in your heart.

Romans 2:15
since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

The first use of the law is for non believers only. The second use of the law is for non-believers and believers a like. The third us of the law is only for believers. That is we use it as a guide in our daily lives. We obey the law not because we HAVE to, but because we WANT to.</font>[/QUOTE]You have the incredible ability of taking something very simple and using Scripture to make it very difficult and complex. How do you do it? </font>[/QUOTE]You have an incedible ability to put down everything i say And an invredible hatred for God's word. Can't you say, "Thank you. Now I understand," instead of critisizing what I am trying to explain to you?</font>[/QUOTE]Tulpje,
Are you looking for some special pats on the back or something to make you feel important? We can agree to disagree on anything we want.Please go back and re-read the mission statement when entering this board. It says your opinions will be challenged, if you can't handle that then deal with it. I have absolutely no hatred for God's word and if that is all you've gathered from my posts then I suggest you go back and re-read and listen more carefully. Am I snotty? I wouldn't use that phrase specifically since I am not a child but I tend to respond to your close-minded comments in the same lingo you use in hope that you can understand where I'm coming from. I wouldn't want to leave you anymore confused than you already claim to be.</font>[/QUOTE]Absolutely, I know the mission statement. And NO I am NOT looking for a pat on the back, just for a Christian woman, you seem to be incredibly hostile toward anything that has to do with the Bible or God and the things he tells us in the Bible. When someone helps me learn something that I didn't know... patiently and with kindness explains things to me that I obviously don't understand, I am grateful and I say, "Thank you." I am always eager to learn about God's plan for us... Which is contrary to what I see in your posts. In fact, I would say that there two types of people on this board-two camps if you will, the ones who are spreading God's word *remember the great commision and what all Christians are called to do?) and those who are here disputing it. I would say tht for a Christian woman that you are on the wrong team.

 

[tulpje]

Originally posted by excreationist:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by tulpje:
Again, all you have to do is believe! Hell is a terrible place, and out of Christian love we are here giving you the Gospel. No-one wants you to go to hell-including God! That is why he sent his Son. The Gospel(or good news) is that you have salvation in Christ. You just need to believe. That is the only requirement! God is merciful, loving and just.

Ok, I guess death camps aren't a good analogy since Jews probably weren't set free if they renounced their faith.

But what about this:

...It is equally impossible to estimate the numbers of pagans murdered in the New World by Christians. Columbus planted a cross wherever he went, vowing to "do all the mischief that we can" to natives who refused to convert. The Christians brought with them skills of torture that had been refined on their own people in Europe for hundreds of years.
One Indian chief, Hatuey, fled with his people but was captured and burned alive. As "they were tying him to the stake a Franciscan friar urged him to take Jesus to his heart so that his soul might go to heaven, rather than descend into hell. Hatuey replied that if heaven was where the Christians went, he would rather go to hell." (Source: D. Stannard, American Holocaust, Oxford University Press 1992.)

And this:

In 777, Charlemagne, a devout Christian, after conquering the Saxon rebels, gave them a choice between baptism and execution. When they refused to convert, he had 4500 of them beheaded in one morning.

I think it is against this board's rules to give links to the anti-Christian sites that said that though.

So the same thing could be said in those examples - those Christians mightn't want people to die - they'd rather the people converted.

You said before:
"God is not choosing to burn you in hell. It is your choice."

In the same way, it isn't the Christians choice to massacre those who don't repent... it is the choice of the unrepentant.

So do you think that God's ultimatum is different from the one that Charlemagne apparently gave the Saxon rebels? Of course, it isn't a Christian thing to do to threaten people with death, but on the other hand, that is what God is doing.</font>[/QUOTE]I do not understand why you are bringing Charlemagne into this. Wasn't he at war? You are making me wish that I had my old Western Civ book. Chances are that Charlemagne couldn't read the scriptures even if he HAD a bible and priests back then were corrupt... men used to hide their daughters from them so that they wouldn't take them. Furthermore, I'm a sinner, and you are a sinner, and so was Charlemagne.

Let me show you what the conditions were like in the early 16th century and the quality of pastoral care people were getting....

Luther's preface to the Small Catechism 1529:

Martin Luther, to all the faithful and upright pastors and preachers: Grace mercy and peace in Jesus Christ our Lord.

The deplorable, wretched conditions that I recently encountered while I was a visitor have constrained and compelled me to prepare this catechism, or Christian instruction, in such a brief, plaun and simple version. Dear God, what misery I beheld! The ordinary person, especially in the villages, knows absolutely nothing about the Christian faith, and unfortunately many pastors are completely unskilled and incompetant teachers. Yet they are all suppose to bear the name Christain, to be baptized, and to recieve the Holy Sacrament, even though they do not know the Lord's Prayer, the Creed, or the Ten Commandments! As a result, they live like simple cattle or irrational pigs and despite the fact that the Gospel has returned, have mastered the fine art of misusing all of their freedom....

It goes on for 4 more pages, but I think you get the idea.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by excreationist:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by tulpje:
Again, all you have to do is believe! Hell is a terrible place, and out of Christian love we are here giving you the Gospel. No-one wants you to go to hell-including God! That is why he sent his Son. The Gospel(or good news) is that you have salvation in Christ. You just need to believe. That is the only requirement! God is merciful, loving and just.

Ok, I guess death camps aren't a good analogy since Jews probably weren't set free if they renounced their faith.</font>[/QUOTE]Interesting. Are you now trying to say that atheism is your faith? I thought it was something that could be scientifically reasonable...not something you have faith in.
Are you now stating that atheism is a religion like Judaism? If so, I think that its tenets should not be taught in school as that would violate separation of Church and State...

 

[wishtolearn]

[/qb][/QUOTE]Absolutely, I know the mission statement. And NO I am NOT looking for a pat on the back, just for a Christian woman, you seem to be incredibly hostile toward anything that has to do with the Bible or God and the things he tells us in the Bible. When someone helps me learn something that I didn't know... patiently and with kindness explains things to me that I obviously don't understand, I am grateful and I say, "Thank you." I am always eager to learn about God's plan for us... Which is contrary to what I see in your posts. In fact, I would say that there two types of people on this board-two camps if you will, the ones who are spreading God's word *remember the great commision and what all Christians are called to do?) and those who are here disputing it. I would say tht for a Christian woman that you are on the wrong team.[/QB][/QUOTE]

The team I am on does not judge another person based upon their ability to quote Scripture or their desire to agree with you. I know who and what I am and if you'd like to get your point across and actually get people to see your way of thinking I suggest that you stop with the comparisons of yourself vs. them. Stop with the "I am" and "you are" baloney and people might start taking you seriously. That is what separates me from you, not what is in both of our hearts which is a deep love of God and everything he stands for. Now, I do not have anything personally against you, I'm sure you're a wonderful person but I do not take kindly to you judging what kind of person I am based upon your near-sighted analysis of my posts.

 

[JohnClay]

Joseph Botwinick:
I'm an atheist BTW. My point was that tulpje was saying that it is people's *choice* whether we go to hell or not. And atheists could possibly delude themselves into believing if they really wanted to. (If they hired professional brain-washers, etc)
But on the other hand, those who were sent to the death camps were often sent there because of genetic reasons that were totally impossible to change. (At least it is theoretically possible for atheists to become Christians)

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by excreationist:
Joseph Botwinick:
I'm an atheist BTW.

Excreationist,

I know this. I was just messing with you the same way you are with us. Trying to push one of your emotional hot buttons like you are with us. Not really asking a serious question like you aren't with us. Basically just playing mental games like you are. So, do you seriously equate Christians with Nazis or are you just goofing off to get a rise out of us? Of course, the hole in your question is that God provides a way out for those who will recieve it because he loves us. Also, God's judgement is just and righteous. Has nothing to do with anti-semitism. But you knew that, didn't you?

Joseph Botwinick

[ March 24, 2002, 12:20 AM: Message edited by: Joseph Botwinick ]

 

[Star]

Eaglelives... There are other clues inside Christs parables

Mathew 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been KEPT SECRET from the foundation of the world.

Christ had to speak of the things hidden or kept secret, if you look in the Old testament Hell or Sheol is not seen as a place such as this. As I pointed out in my post God is Hells destruction so it cannot exist if God destroyed it. Death and hell (look up hell sheol, death, even fire, and brimstone) Brimstone is Gods breath, fire Is God (Our God is a consuming fire) Seen elsewhere as a Lion who devours etc. To be thrown body and soul means here and now, you don't take your body there (showing this as present tense instead of past tense)

Also consider who was "cut off" for us, "Better cut off certain parts be it a hand, eye or foot( foot?) then the WHOLE BODY (us) going in. Jesus went into Hell He raises out and them up from this place called hell. No where in the Old Testament can I see this place Hes speaking of as in place of literal fire. I see if I make my bed in hell THOU ART WITH ME, That a certain "house" is that which takes you down to its depths. But most of all God detroys it seen both in old testament and in revelation. Actually God is the "plagues" as well so we have to look everywhere in what it says concerning these things because its The SUM of Gods word is true. Each picture speaks of other pictures.

Something dawned on me in your post though You put the verse down that says this...

"their WORM DIETH NOT" who is "their Worm" who dieth not?

Job 25:6 How much less man, [that is] a worm? and the SON OF MAN, WHICH IS A WORM ? (spoken of by Bildad the Shuhite) God still uses the similitude even though they darken His counsel, "THEIR WORM DIETH NOT" The Fire is not quenched because it (Hell itself goes into the lake of fire)

But look here... Mathew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not [that] thy WHOLE BODY should be cast into hell. (this could very well speak a mystery the whole body literally in hell? then it agrees then with a type of hell on earth in that respect BUT it can be seen as spiritual also who was "cut off" and who went into Hell so WE do not perish? so either way in seeing this according to our natural understanding we can see a bigger picture. It cannot be talking literally it makes no sense cutting off your hand because it offends or plucking out your eye does not resolve sin, so the picture means more then just that. Heres a few scriptures, you can look them up....

1.Men in the Bible are said to be in hell, Sheol-Hadees, and in "The lowest hell," while on earth. Deut. 32: 22; Jon. 2: 2; Rev. 6: 8.
2. Men have been in Hell, Sheol-Hadees, and yet have escaped from it. Ps. 18: 5, 6; II Sam. ; Jon 2: 2; Ps. 116: 3; 86: 12-13. Ps. 30: 3; Rev. 20: 13.
3. God delivers men from Hell, Sheol-Hadees. I Sam. 2: 6.
4. All men are to go there. No one can escape the Bible Hell, Sheol-Hadees. Ps. 89: 48.
5. There can be no evil there for there is no kind of work there. Eccl. 9: 10.
6. Christ's soul was said to be in Hell, Sheol-Hadees. Acts 2: 27-28.
7. No one in the Bible ever speaks of Hell, Sheol-Hadees as a place of punishment after death.
8. It is a way of escape from punishment. Amos 9: 2.
9. The inhabitants of Hell, Sheol-Hadees are eaten of worms, vanish and are consumed away. Job 7: 9, 21; Ps. 49: 14.
10. Hell, Sheol-Hadees is a place of rest. Job 17: 16.
11. It is a realm of unconsciousness. Ps. 6: 5; Is. 38: 18; Eccl. 9: 10.
12. All men will be delivered from this Hell. Hos. 13: 14.
13Hell, Sheol-Hadees, will be destroyed. Hos. 13: 14; I Cor. 15: 55; Rev. 20:

Psalm 116:3 The sorrows of death compassed me, and the PAINS OF HELL gat hold upon ME: I found trouble and sorrow. (Man of sorrows)

Through faith others have... (Heb 11:4) quenched the violence of fire

Through faith you STAND and thats where they stand on the sea of glass mingled with fire.

But as I see it God says this,

Isaiah 28:18 And your COVENANT WITH DEATH shall be DISSANULLED (made void- CANCELLED), and your agreement with HELL SHALL NOT STAND; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
Hell is a place prepared for the devil and his angels but is also seen as in the presence of the Lamb and his holy ones(Rev)

Hosea 13:14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I WILL BE THY PLAGUES; O grave, I WILL BE THY DESTRUCTION: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.

Look who is its plagues... God is

In Him Kim

 

[JohnClay]

Joseph Botwinick:
This is basically what I said earlier...

Many Christians think that hell is a perfectly just punishment for non-believers, since God is apparently perfectly just.

And Nazi-sympathizers would believe that death camps are a fair fate for the Jews.

"Are you now stating that atheism is a religion like Judaism?"

I think the Nazi's wanted to kill those of Jewish blood - no matter what their religion was. That's why I said it wasn't a good analogy, because Jews couldn't be saved merely by saying they are Christians.

"So, do you seriously equate Christians with Nazis or are you just goofing off to get a rise out of us?"

Yes, I am equating Christians with Nazi-sympathizers who endorse death camps. Though these people aren't doing the killing or torturing themselves, they are approving of it. And in the case of Christians, they're saying that it is a perfectly just and fair fate for non-believers.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by excreationist:
Joseph Botwinick:
This is basically what I said earlier...

Many Christians think that hell is a perfectly just punishment for non-believers, since God is apparently perfectly just.

And Nazi-sympathizers would believe that death camps are a fair fate for the Jews.

Small difference. The Jews had not committed a sin against the Nazis. All of mankind has sinned against God. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ. Your entire premise is illogical and ridiculous. Go watch Schindler's List and then think about your reasoning here. It doesn't add up.

"Are you now stating that atheism is a religion like Judaism?"

I think the Nazi's wanted to kill those of Jewish blood - no matter what their religion was. That's why I said it wasn't a good analogy, because Jews couldn't be saved merely by saying they are Christians.[/QUOTE]

That is not what you said though. You're implication was that there was some kind of correlation between Nazi's wanting Jews to die because of their religious beliefs and Christians agreeing with God's righteous judgement against atheists. Your entire premise makes no sense and would be laughed at in almost any university in the USA (secular or not).

Joseph Botwinick

 

[JohnClay]

Originally posted by Joseph Botwinick:
[Of course, the hole in your question is that God provides a way out for those who will receive it because he loves us.

That's why I said it wasn't a good analogy!!!

Also, God's judgement is just and righteous.

A ha! So you are supporting God when he sends those who don't choose the correct religion to hell! e.g. Muslims, Hindus and those who lack a religion would go to hell to suffer in agony eternally.

Has nothing to do with anti-semitism. But you knew that, didn't you?

I said it wasn't a good analogy...

 

[Star]

excreationist

I think I know you from the infidels web, are you the same person? I think your absolutely right, I see more hate in christians (most) then the love they profess and I don't think its fair or believing correctly to think a God of love would do such things. To me it speaks a mystery, but its niether here nor there because if you say anything it starts an argument.

Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Romans 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

Funny how the roles seem reversed in that some christians might call themselves the "circumcision" all over again and those "outside" as the unbelieving gentiles (in a cute sort of way)

Yet I see in many Athiests a righteousness without a need for law because law produces no righteousness anyway.

I'm a christian and I find more love and comfort outside the walls of christianity then inside it and as heretical as that might sound to others I know what love looks like and feels like and something calling itself love with a dagger at your throat in every conversation is not love.

(If this is you...)

Romans 3:3 -4For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

I felt more lost inside the whole confusing mess of mass market Christianity then outside it. And Gods not an author of confusion... makes you wonder.

To anyone else reading this...
(I'm not talking all christians I'm talking about the evident mess out there in various places not nailing down anyone specific)

Kim

 

[Kachana]

Small difference. The Jews had not committed a sin against the Nazis. All of mankind has sinned against God. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ. Your entire premise is illogical and ridiculous. Go watch Schindler's List and then think about your reasoning here. It doesn't add up.

The Jews' 'sin' (or fault if you prefer) was being Jewish, and for that Nazis deemed it fit to burn them. My 'sin' (or fault) is that I do not believe that a man named Jesus is God, and for that many Christians deem it fit for me to burn forever. The only difference is, trivially, the word used, in both instances the individuals are being burnt for a facet of themselves that is deemed punishable by fire (Nazis) or fire for eternity (CHristians). A difference that makes no difference is no difference at all.

ALL I want to know is, what is the qualitative difference between the above scenarios that means that it is rational for me to loathe Nazis, but not Christians, to view Nazis as a hateful ememy, but to view Christians of paragons of love?

An attempt has been made, which is unconvincing. One is that it is my choice to burn in hell. This is prima facie absurd, given a choice, I would choose NOT to burn in Hell. But saying it is my choice stems from giving me only 2 options, one of which I cannot choose, I simply cannot choose to believe that Christ was God in the same way that I cannot believe that I have 6 fingers on one hand, this is not exactly a choice then. Secondly, even if I could suddenly believe Christ was God, it then becomes simple blackmail, sorry, people that blackmail me with everlasting pain are my enemy.

You're implication was that there was some kind of correlation between Nazi's wanting Jews to die because of their religious beliefs and Christians agreeing with God's righteous judgement against atheists.

The correlation is valid to the extent that I should view both parties as an enemy, and hold them in the same esteem. Let me put my position as basically as I can: ANYONE who thinks it is not only perfectly acceptable, but perfectly just for me to burn in a fire for eternity, whether via agreement with an authority or otherwise, due to a belief that I am unable to change, or for a belief that I could change but would only do so via blackmail, is not only my sworn enemy, but also an individual that must have fundamentally different understandings form moe of many words in the English language, such as Love, Respect, Acceptance, Punishment, Just and Fair.

Your entire premise makes no sense and would be laughed at in almost any university in the USA (secular or not).

I would say that this is an appeal to authority, but it's even worse, it's an appeal to an unreferenced authority!

[ March 24, 2002, 10:14 AM: Message edited by: Kachana ]

 

[post-it]

Originally posted by excreationist:

Yes, I am equating Christians with Nazi-sympathizers who endorse death camps. Though these people aren't doing the killing or torturing themselves, they are approving of it. And in the case of Christians, they're saying that it is a perfectly just and fair fate for non-believers.

As a Christian, we say it is just because God tells us it is just. There is no valid argument for use to claim it is just on any other grounds, which is what you are trying to turn it into. A Nazi-sympathizer had a choice in determining if what people (the state) was doing, was just or not. God doesn't give us a choice, it just is. We accept it, and believe it in order to be a Christian. One wouldn't have to believe it and accept it if he were a Nazi-sympathizer, yet they could still be a Nazi-sympathizer professing such adverse belief.

Another fallacy in your argument is that you are assuming an eternal pain in hell, type afterlife. Even if we allowed your (bad) analogy, your argument fails if there were but a sudden death of the spirit (which is what I believe)after ones physical death. It would be a fair choice and certainly no real loss since atheists assume a sudden death anyway. Plus, given an atheist does not love God, who would want to spend eternity with an ex-wife? Isn't that what God is like to you? Loving God now or hating God now will make a difference in what you want after death.

 

[radiochemist]

Dear Radiochemist,

If you don't like the moderation of this board, then by all means, you are free to leave. You will not post your mean-spirited drivel on my forums though. If you have a problem, e-mail me in private and I will do the best I can to handle it when I can. This will be your only warning. Next time I will suspend you.

Joseph Botwinick
Moderator

[ March 24, 2002, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: Joseph Botwinick ]