What has ceased?

atestring · Mar 14, 2004

Originally posted by DHK:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by atestring:
Then why have you ranted about women and used scriptures about women being silent if you believe that neither men nor women are at liberty to speak in tongues.

atestring: My position on tongues has never changed. Tongues have ceased, and they did so by the end of the first century.
1Cor.14 speaks of the conditions imposed on speaking in tongues for the believers in the first century. They don't apply to in the sense that tongues are not for today anyway.
My argument is: For those who say that tongues is Biblical and for today, then go through the fourteenth chapter of 1Corinthians, and apply the same restrictions that Paul imposed on the churches of the first century to the churches of today. If you cannot do it, then obviously you know that what you are doing is not of God. Go through the list one by one.
Do they have an interpreter at all times?
Do they have a maximum of only three people speak in tongues, and never at the same time?
Are the women always silent in respect to tongues.
Are their unbelieving Jews present when speaking in tongues?
Are the "tongues" being spoken acutal real languages, or are they mere gibberish?
Are they spoken, not only with an interpreter, but always in the church, to the congregation, for the edification of the church as a whole--never as a prayer language or singing, etc.

These are just some of the questions that arise out of the 14th chapter to guage whether or not tongues would be Biblical if they were for today. Since so many of you insist that they are for today without Biblical evidence, then here is the Bible. Match up your experience with the Word of God. Compare it. Do you speak in tongues only when all these conditions are set in place or not?
If not, then you know it is not of God.
DHK [/QUOTE]YOu have ranted about women speaking in tongues.
I still want to know why you rant about women speaking in tongues since you think that it is wrong for men also.
NObody has to defend wheither tongues are for today.
The Bible does not say that tongues will cease in (as you say ) AD 70.
The cessationist heresy that you believe needs to be defended. You are entitled to believe anything you want to but you have not convinced me.

atestring · Mar 14, 2004

DKH I do not owe you an explanation Therefore I have said all I want to say to you about this subject.

Ray Berrian · Mar 14, 2004

Jude,

I totally agree with you on your statement which said, 'There is a 'heavenly' language, called 'tongues'. Not all have the gift. My disagreement with the Assembly of God (among others)is their insistence that tongues is THE evidence of a person being Spirit-filled.'

The Apostle Paul of course had it correct when he said, with God's stamp of approval on his statement that offered these words.

'The Spirit, divides to every man/woman severally as He wills.' [I Cor. 12:11] While we do not all get or have this gift, we must not deny or 'forbid those who do speak with tongues.' [I Cor. 14:39]

While I do not have the gift--the gift of tongues or the interpretation of tongues I am not willing to deny its evident truth in the Word of God for today. Otherwise, we might say that the Beautitudes were only meant for either when John the Baptist was around or for a future Kingdom Age.

I believe and feel deeply that every born of the Spirit sinner turned Christian, one who has been regenerated is at the moment of receiving Christ, ' . . . is baptized into one body' [I Cor. 12:13] baptized into the Spirit once for all.

The Apostle Paul apparently wished that everyone spoke in tongues. [I Cor. 14:5]

My personal belief is that 'the gift of tongues' is the language of Heaven, which angels probably understand and obviously the Lord understands this unique language. [I Cor. 13:1]

We may not speak in tongues but we better strive or learn to love other human beings or our faith is of minuscule importance to God or human beings. [I Cor. chapter 13] Someone said, 'They will know we are Christians, by our love.'

BobRyan · Mar 14, 2004

Originally posted by micahaaron:
What has ceased from the Old T to the New T?
What has ceased from the New T to 21st Century?

What make it ceased?

NT - post-Cross:

In Hebrews 10 we are told that the sacrifices ceased. Hence an end to the ceremonial system.

In Hebrews 7-8 we are told that the earthly priesthood ceased. Hence - an end to the ceremonial system.

AD 70 - the end of the theocratic nation of Israel - the end of the theocracy, the end of the civil governing laws of Israel.

NT - post first-century.

There are no more Apostles. No more church leaders with first-hand visible history with Christ having the gift of being called by God as an Apostle.

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Mar 14, 2004

Originally posted by Briguy:
Clearly, the gifts of Tongues, Interpretation of tongues, Healing, and Miracles have ceased. This is proved by scripture and practical application. Also, new revelation has ceased as God's Word is complete.

This is merely rationalizing - not a Bible teaching per-se.

According to the Bible - in Ephesians 4 the Spiritual Gifts continue on through the end of the church age.

Acccording to the Bible - a number of prophets existed in both OT and NT that did not contribute any writings to the OT or NT text itself.

In Numbers 12 we find God's definition of the gift. Both Miriam and Aaron were prophets.

All the "rules" of the Law had ceased by the start of the new "church", this includes tithing.

Again - this is not in harmony with James 2 or with Rom 3:31 showing that we "establish the Law of God".

In fact in Rom 2:13 "it is not the Hearers of the Law that are just before God but the Doers of the Law WILL be JustiFIED".

I could go on but won't,

In Christ,

Bob

Ray Berrian · Mar 15, 2004

Bob Ryan,

I read your Ephesians four passage and it does say that the Lord gave gifts to His people in verse eight, just before His ascension.

Dr. Philip E. Huges, D. Litt. says that I Corinthians was written in A.D. probably in the spring of 55, 56 or 57.

Dr. Wilbert T. Dayton, Th.D., indicates that Ephesians was written in A.D. 62 or 63.

The Apostle Paul would not have contradicted his ideas about God giving 'gifts of the Spirit' to His recently birthed church. There is no Scripture that says that after the books of the Bible were finally written, that God withdrew His all wise gifts to the Christian Church.

Are there nine gifts of the Spirit? [I Cor. 12:8-10] or are there more? I do know that love should surpass all of the other gifts that God gives to His people.

DHK · Mar 15, 2004

Originally posted by tamborine lady:
I did not say that you did not have the Holy Spirit!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You don;t have to have tongues to have Holy Spirit!

I said that the gift of healing was by the unction of the Holy Ghost, I said nothing about YOU not having it!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The verse I quoted was that Jesus did not many miracles because of their unbelief. In the first place, He said that because they knew Him and couldn;t believe He could heal them. That was in NO WAY casting doubt on your salvation!!!

The only conclusion you should come to with my statement is that if all the gifts have ceased, (and you don't believe they are still in effect)
then you don't believe in the gift of healing. That in no way casts aspersions on your salvation!

Tam

Perhaps that is true Tam, but that is not the way that every one always comes across. Look at a few examples:

Posted by music4Him posted March 12, 2004 11:19 PM
there are still some things that we just don't understand and its really a miracle that bumble bees can fly....maybe we just need to be reminded from time to time and step out in faith and belive.

--Though this was written primarily in reference to the spiritual gift of tongues, it seems to imply faith and belief of all the spiritual gifts especially tongues and healing. What does it imply. It really doesn't say: that we are unbelievers in the spiritual gifts or just plain unbelievers? If, as you recently have said, say that it was said only in the context of belief in healing, then why haven't you taken up my challenge of believing in the gift of healing yourself? You seem to be somewhat of hypocrite in this area. The Apostles, when exercising the gift of healing, could heal all that came to them. Walk down the corridor of any hospital and heal ALL the patients in the hospital. I am sure that they would appreciate it. Why won't any healer take up the challenge? Could it be that those gifts have ceased, just as tongues has?

I am not the only one who has detected this attitude of "unbelief"

Posted by Lorelei:
For those who keep insinuating we don't "believe" enough, let me remind you it is an adulterous generation that seeks after a sign. I am in no need of a "sign" or a "spiritual high" to prove to me that my God is real. I have his witness within me and His Spirit testifies with my spirit that I am a child of God! Amen!
~Lorelei

Posted by Tambourine Lady:
58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.
because of their unbelief-------------hmmm
Tam,

Posted by MEE:
The miracle gifts that God left for "The Church" are still in effect today. He didn't give these gifts and then take them back. They were left for us until He returns. It's just a matter of who "believes."

Posted Tambourine Lady on March 10
I hate to burst your bubble, but the gifts are not seen much today because of unbelief, not because they don't exist.
Also, they are put into action by the unction of the Holy Ghost, not by the person who operates in them.
Working for Him,
Tam

Cotton posted:
If the gifts passed away did the Holy Spirit leave as well?
--The implication is that if we believe in the cessation of the gifts; we don't have the Holy Spirit.

Yet all of you have not demonstrated your BELIEF in the gift of healing

DHK

DHK · Mar 15, 2004

Originally posted by atestring:
YOu have ranted about women speaking in tongues.
I still want to know why you rant about women speaking in tongues since you think that it is wrong for men also.

Because even though we can give evidence that tongues have ceased, people like yourself do not accept our evidence (Biblical or otherwise). For that reason, I give you the supposed benefit of the doubt. Suppose tongues were for today. If they were, then there is an entire chapter devoted for their proper usage. Paul has put down conditions for using the gift of tongues. They are Scriptural conditions. You ought to at least measure your "gift" so-called by the Bible. Will you at least accept that much?
So here is what the Bible says:

1 Corinthians 14:34-35 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
--This is one of the conditions that God set forth in using the gift of tongues. Do Christians today obey the Scriptures? I doubt it, seeing that there are women on this board who admit to speaking in God, and claim that God uses them in doing so. It is simply another demonstration how the "tongues" of today is both not Biblical, and not being used Biblical even if it was.

NObody has to defend wheither tongues are for today.
The Bible does not say that tongues will cease in (as you say ) AD 70.
The cessationist heresy that you believe needs to be defended. You are entitled to believe anything you want to but you have not convinced me.

Click to expand...

It is a matter of examining the evidence with an open mind. I don't believe that you have done that. The Bible does not say explicitly that tongues ceased in 70 A.D., but it prophesied that tongues were a sign to the nation of Israel. And that if Israel would not repent and believe in the Messiah, then judgement would come on the nation of Israel. Both Isaiah and Paul explain this. History tells us of the judgement that came on Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Prophecy was fulfilled.
DHK

BobRyan · Mar 15, 2004

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:

The Apostle Paul would not have contradicted his ideas about God giving 'gifts of the Spirit' to His recently birthed church. There is no Scripture that says that after the books of the Bible were finally written, that God withdrew His all wise gifts to the Christian Church.

Agreed.

Ray said --
Are there nine gifts of the Spirit? [I Cor. 12:8-10] or are there more? I do know that love should surpass all of the other gifts that God gives to His people.

Certainly Love had to exist from the very start as Christ said in John 17 that the command of Love was already in place pre-cross (and as Christ commanded in Deut 6:5 and Lev 19:18 - the command to Love was well established long before 1Cor 12).

In Christ,

Bob

tamborine lady · Mar 15, 2004

Dear DHK,

You are welcome to believe whatever you wish about the gifts of the Spirit, such as tongues, healing etc. I am not going to argue about scripture with you. After all, in the end, what we believe about different things is between us and God.

This is my answer to your premise that if some one truly has the gift of healing they can walk into a hospital and heal everyone.

God is in charge of healing, not people. Some people, for whatever reason(maybe they are old and it is their time to die for example) will not be healed. When I pray for someone to be healed, there is a knowing in my spirit whether it will happen or not. But I will not say to the sick person, "no use praying, it is'nt going to happen.

So sometimes people are healed by God and sometimes not. Sometimes they get well with the help of a Dr.

Why doesn't everyone get healed? I don't know, you'll have to ask God.

It has been very enlightening talking with you on this subject. I praise God for one thing. I know you believe what you preach, but I am truly grateful that I am NOT in your church.

No gifts, no healing, women can't say much, and everyone must agree with you!

Praise God I am free in Jesus to do his work!!

Hallalujah!!

Working for Him,

Tam,

Jude · Mar 15, 2004

Originally posted by BobRyan:

There are no more Apostles. No more church leaders with first-hand visible history with Christ having the gift of being called by God as an Apostle.

Bob

You've obviously never heard of the 'laying on of hands'. Bishops -validly ordained- are the 'descendants' of the original apostles. They are the 'apostles in our midst'.

I find this arguing about 'tongues' to be an interesting thing. Probably many argue 'against tongues' because of the 'abuses' seen in many churches. I have experienced miraculous things in my life, that clearly came from God. I can't 'prove' this to be the case. I have experienced 'words of knowledge'. I have experienced 'holy laughter'. I have experienced an encounter with God that was so 'joyful' that I had to ask Him to stop, for I was sure I couldn't 'take' it any more. I can't PROVE any of this. But I KNOW the Lord gives these gifts to His children. And He does so to glorify His Name, to extend the boundaries of His Kingdom, and to bless His children. If you cannot accept this, that's okay. I'm quite-sure the Lord loves you anyway. For those who are against 'gifts' today, (because the 'perfect' has come), I would ask, when your loved ones are ill, do you pray for their healing? When your family or church is under attack, do you pray for protection? When you are seeking an answer, to you pray for the Lord to reveal His truth to you? If you do, you believe in spiritual gifts.

cotton · Mar 15, 2004

Originally posted by Downsville:
PS Cotton
Have a good sabbath.

Thanks, Downsville1 I had a great Shabbat! Cotton

cotton · Mar 15, 2004

DHK;
Sorry I haven't responded; my computer at home wouldn't access the internet; I am responding during my lunch hr from work;

Originally posted by DHK:
Cotton:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Okay, before you were saying the law is abolished; now you are saying it isn't.

This statement is in response to Mat. 5:17,18. I answered you clearly that God never did away with the moral law that was written on the hearts of every man (Rom. 2:14,15), neither the prophecies contained in the law and the prophets which are yet to be fulfilled. This is what Christ is referring to here. Look again at Scripture:

Colossians 2:13-14 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

The handwriting of ordinances (laws) were nailed to the cross. This is not the moral law—the Ten Commandments; it is the ceremonial law, and the judicial laws of the Jews that do not apply to us any longer. As Paul goes on to explain it is the Sabbaths, the holy days, the festivals, the sacrifices, all of which were simply a shadow of that which was to come. That which was to come has come—Jesus Christ. We do not need the shadow any longer. We have the reality—Jesus Christ. The other is done away with, including the Sabbath which is a sign of the covenant given to the nation of Israel alone (Exodus 31).

1. Unless I'm mistaken (and I could be, this topic is spread over two very lively discussions!) we haven't discussed separating the Law into moral, ceremonial or judicial; the 2 greatest commandments " love the Lord with all your strength, mind and soul (I'm paraphrasing)" and love your neighbor as yourself" are a summation of the 10. In turn (and hence detail the 10 mitzvote are a summation of the rest.

2. The Feast of the Lord are still shadows of things to come; The Feast of Trumpets, The Day of Atonement (though our sacrifice is made in Y'shua, and the Feast of booths.

I apologize for not being a missionary, however does that apply to everyone here as well?
Does this have anything to do with whether or not the law has been abolished? Do you consider a personal attack on me as "fair game" to avoid your argument?
All I can do is quote Y'shua "judge not lest ye be jugded."

Click to expand...

This statement was made in response to the command in Deuteronomy "Love thy neighbor as thyself," repeated by Jesus in Matthew 22:39. This by no means is an attack on you. Please take the "you" in my response as generic, applying to everyone. The Great Commission in Mat. 28:19,20 applies to every Christian. Jesus said to all to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. No Christian is exempted from that command. This is loving your neighbor as yourself. Our neighbor is the world. The world is the harvest field to which we are sent. God has never called any one to be pew warmers. The Great Commission is always go; never stay. If I truly love my neighbor as myself I will go unto the ends of the world and tell him the gospel. In the light of this, I challenge you as I challenge all: Why should any person have the right to hear the gospel twice, when so many have not heard it even once? Love thy neighbor as thyself.

Those who have heard and listened to the gospel have to be fed. I believe He did say to Peter "feed my sheep". The 'good Samaritan' was a good neighbor to the man in need. I can be (though you insinuate I'm not) a good neighbor in my area. Though I commend you for being a missionary, this still has nothing to do with our discussion on whether or not the Law has been abolished. Actually, by being a missionary, you prove that you ARE following the Law! Outside the 10 commandments even! There's hope for you yet!

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
--This verse is self-explanatory.

Click to expand...

Yes, the context thereof in JUDGING OTHERS; we are not to judge others in their obedience;there is none that is righteous, not one, but that doesn't mean we don't pursue righteousness and obedience

Click to expand...

This is a principle which is stated clearly in other passages of Scripture. It has nothing to do with judging others. If you break the one law you are as guilty as if you broke the whole law. I didn't say it; God did. If you disagree, take it up with God, don't try to rationalize your way out of this one. Man cannot keep the law.

Perhaps we should clarify what "keep" is.

It is an impossibility. That is what James is saying.

Well Luke 1:6 concerning Zekariah and Elizabeth says "...Both of them were righteous before God, observing all the mitzvot and ordinances of Adonai blamelessly. "

We are no longer under the CURSE because Y'shua's blood covers our sins, He
has redeemed our sin debt, and if we love Him we will "obey His
commandments".

Click to expand...

You answered this in relation to Gal.3:10. Agreed. "If we love Him we will obey His commandments. Not the O.T. law, but His commandments, and His commandments are not grievous. "A new commandment I give unto you that ye love one another." His commandments are in the N.T., not in the Old. They do not include the Levitical law which He abolished.

He does not do things outside the will of the Father; He and the Father are one. (echad).
I do agree that the priesthood has been transferred from Aaron to Melchidsidec (sp?). This and the fact that Temple is not standing shows that we can't do the Levitcial ceremony even if we wanted to.

Once more you leave out the verse in the middle. verse 9 says, If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Click to expand...

What does it matter if I left out verse 9 (1John 1:8-10). Verses 8 and 10 tell us that if we say that we have no sin, we are liars, and the truth is not in us. We also make Jesus Christ a liar. The point made was in connection with James 2:10, which as I just mentioned is a principle that can be found in other Scriptures such as these.

Absolutely, however our arguement is whether or not "all the rules of the law are abolished with the coming of the church" or words to that effect. Whether or not I observe or not has nothing to do with the law being abolished!

Click to expand...

This is a response made to James 2:10 again. It has everything to do with whether or not you have the ability to observe all the law. You don't. It is impossible.

I answered this above. I also remember somewhere Paul saying he was blameless before the Law. If oberving the Law puts you under a curse (which it doesn't) then if we obey the commandment not to bow before idols are we cursed? You keep insisted I'm obeying to be saved, and yet a servant of the Lord should be in obedience to Him; did He not obey His Father?

It puts you under the curse of the law. If you are still under the curse of the law, you have no hope in eternity and are still condemned to Hell. Christ became a curse for us.

AMEN!!

Thus we are not under the law.

This is a generic statement that means different things to different people. Since I think I now know what you mean, are we to obey the '10'?

All this serves to prove that the law HAS NOT BEEN ABOLISHED, which you now apparently agree to, which was what I stated in the first place! And your false impression of the Sabbath being 'done away with' is another topic.

Click to expand...

A response to Exodus 20 and Romans 2:14,15. Be more specific. It serves to prove that God's moral law has not been abolished, as has already been stated. God nailed to the cross the levitical law—the sacrifices, holy days, Sabbaths, and all ceremonial law to the cross. We are no longer under the law in that sense. Study Acts 15 as well. The Judaizers were trying to impose circumcision and the law of Moses upon the Gentiles.

SOME Jews were insisting this. Biblical Judaism did not teach justification by Law and thus the Jews did not as a whole teach this. These men were GNOSTICS which teach that men are saved by observing rules. The teaching that all Jews believe they are saved by the Mosaic Law is a Christian missunderstanding.

They said that one could not be saved without it. The decree issued by James, the pastor of the church at Jerusalem, was that circumcision and the law were not binding on the Gentiles, and had no part of Salvation.

Gal.3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
--The O.T. saints were under the law, but the law could not save them. They were "shut up" unto the faith which only afterward would be revealed. The law only showed their sinfulness.

Click to expand...

The "O.T. saints" were under the curse of the law, which is sin and death. They were saved by grace through faith;

Click to expand...

You are arguing against Scripture, and against God. I simply quoted Scripture and you want to say the opposite of it. It plainly says "the faith which only afterward would be revealed." I did not say it; God did. Their faith was in the revelation of God as they knew it, that is faith in Jehovah. It was not faith in the substitutionary work of Christ on the cross which they knew nothing about and could not possibly understand.

Aue contrair mon ami; the core of the faith of the Jews was and still is 'the Messiah to come'. There is much Jewish commentary on Messiah. They simply don't see the Christian Jesus as the Messiah; and they by and large don't see Him because WE DON"T REFLECT HIS IMAGE!!!"

IF the law ONLY serves one purpose! The Torah is much more than that! Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! ON THE CONTRARY WE ESTABLISH THE LAW.

Click to expand...

Again this is a simple matter of unbelief. In relation to Gal.3:24,25, you just simply refuse to believe what the Scripture so plainly says. I didn't write it; God did. The law is our school master to bring us to Christ. We are no longer under the schoolmaster. We are no longer under the law. Accept it or reject it. It is God's Word. He has spoken.
As I have mentioned before "the Law" is used in more than just one sense

AMEN! I had just stated that!

and doesn't always refer to ALL the books of Moses as you infer that it does. It does not refer to the Pentateuch here which is the Torah. It refers more to the Ten Commandments which no man can keep. Have you ever told a lie?

Actually this means, if you follow the law IN THE FLESH you are acting in disobedience. If you follow the law IN THE SPIRIT you are acting according to God.

Click to expand...

Not quite Cotton. "So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God." "If any man have not the Spirit of God, he is none of His" If you don't have the Spirit of God, and are acting entirely out of the flesh, you do not belong to God, and you are not one of his children (again I use "you" generically meaning anybody).

So are you saying that people who choose to obey God by following the Law do not have the Spirit of God?

Finally, Romans 3:31 "Do we make void the Law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the Law. "
DHK [/QUOTE]

cotton · Mar 15, 2004

DHK;
Sorry I haven't responded; my computer at home wouldn't access the internet; I am responding during my lunch hr from work;

Originally posted by DHK:
Cotton:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Okay, before you were saying the law is abolished; now you are saying it isn't.

This statement is in response to Mat. 5:17,18. I answered you clearly that God never did away with the moral law that was written on the hearts of every man (Rom. 2:14,15), neither the prophecies contained in the law and the prophets which are yet to be fulfilled. This is what Christ is referring to here. Look again at Scripture:

Colossians 2:13-14 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

The handwriting of ordinances (laws) were nailed to the cross. This is not the moral law—the Ten Commandments; it is the ceremonial law, and the judicial laws of the Jews that do not apply to us any longer. As Paul goes on to explain it is the Sabbaths, the holy days, the festivals, the sacrifices, all of which were simply a shadow of that which was to come. That which was to come has come—Jesus Christ. We do not need the shadow any longer. We have the reality—Jesus Christ. The other is done away with, including the Sabbath which is a sign of the covenant given to the nation of Israel alone (Exodus 31).

1. Unless I'm mistaken (and I could be, this topic is spread over two very lively discussions!) we haven't discussed separating the Law into moral, ceremonial or judicial; the 2 greatest commandments " love the Lord with all your strength, mind and soul (I'm paraphrasing)" and love your neighbor as yourself" are a summation of the 10. In turn (and hence detail the 10 mitzvote are a summation of the rest.

2. The Feast of the Lord are still shadows of things to come; The Feast of Trumpets, The Day of Atonement (though our sacrifice is made in Y'shua, and the Feast of booths.

I apologize for not being a missionary, however does that apply to everyone here as well?
Does this have anything to do with whether or not the law has been abolished? Do you consider a personal attack on me as "fair game" to avoid your argument?
All I can do is quote Y'shua "judge not lest ye be jugded."

Click to expand...

This statement was made in response to the command in Deuteronomy "Love thy neighbor as thyself," repeated by Jesus in Matthew 22:39. This by no means is an attack on you. Please take the "you" in my response as generic, applying to everyone. The Great Commission in Mat. 28:19,20 applies to every Christian. Jesus said to all to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. No Christian is exempted from that command. This is loving your neighbor as yourself. Our neighbor is the world. The world is the harvest field to which we are sent. God has never called any one to be pew warmers. The Great Commission is always go; never stay. If I truly love my neighbor as myself I will go unto the ends of the world and tell him the gospel. In the light of this, I challenge you as I challenge all: Why should any person have the right to hear the gospel twice, when so many have not heard it even once? Love thy neighbor as thyself.

Those who have heard and listened to the gospel have to be fed. I believe He did say to Peter "feed my sheep". The 'good Samaritan' was a good neighbor to the man in need. I can be (though you insinuate I'm not) a good neighbor in my area. Though I commend you for being a missionary, this still has nothing to do with our discussion on whether or not the Law has been abolished. Actually, by being a missionary, you prove that you ARE following the Law! Outside the 10 commandments even! There's hope for you yet!

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
--This verse is self-explanatory.

Click to expand...

Yes, the context thereof in JUDGING OTHERS; we are not to judge others in their obedience;there is none that is righteous, not one, but that doesn't mean we don't pursue righteousness and obedience

Click to expand...

This is a principle which is stated clearly in other passages of Scripture. It has nothing to do with judging others. If you break the one law you are as guilty as if you broke the whole law. I didn't say it; God did. If you disagree, take it up with God, don't try to rationalize your way out of this one. Man cannot keep the law.

Perhaps we should clarify what "keep" is.

It is an impossibility. That is what James is saying.

Well Luke 1:6 concerning Zekariah and Elizabeth says "...Both of them were righteous before God, observing all the mitzvot and ordinances of Adonai blamelessly. "

We are no longer under the CURSE because Y'shua's blood covers our sins, He
has redeemed our sin debt, and if we love Him we will "obey His
commandments".

Click to expand...

You answered this in relation to Gal.3:10. Agreed. "If we love Him we will obey His commandments. Not the O.T. law, but His commandments, and His commandments are not grievous. "A new commandment I give unto you that ye love one another." His commandments are in the N.T., not in the Old. They do not include the Levitical law which He abolished.

He does not do things outside the will of the Father; He and the Father are one. (echad).
I do agree that the priesthood has been transferred from Aaron to Melchidsidec (sp?). This and the fact that Temple is not standing shows that we can't do the Levitcial ceremony even if we wanted to.

Once more you leave out the verse in the middle. verse 9 says, If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

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What does it matter if I left out verse 9 (1John 1:8-10). Verses 8 and 10 tell us that if we say that we have no sin, we are liars, and the truth is not in us. We also make Jesus Christ a liar. The point made was in connection with James 2:10, which as I just mentioned is a principle that can be found in other Scriptures such as these.

Absolutely, however our arguement is whether or not "all the rules of the law are abolished with the coming of the church" or words to that effect. Whether or not I observe or not has nothing to do with the law being abolished!

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This is a response made to James 2:10 again. It has everything to do with whether or not you have the ability to observe all the law. You don't. It is impossible.

I answered this above. I also remember somewhere Paul saying he was blameless before the Law. If oberving the Law puts you under a curse (which it doesn't) then if we obey the commandment not to bow before idols are we cursed? You keep insisted I'm obeying to be saved, and yet a servant of the Lord should be in obedience to Him; did He not obey His Father?

It puts you under the curse of the law. If you are still under the curse of the law, you have no hope in eternity and are still condemned to Hell. Christ became a curse for us.

AMEN!!

Thus we are not under the law.

This is a generic statement that means different things to different people. Since I think I now know what you mean, are we to obey the '10'?

All this serves to prove that the law HAS NOT BEEN ABOLISHED, which you now apparently agree to, which was what I stated in the first place! And your false impression of the Sabbath being 'done away with' is another topic.

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A response to Exodus 20 and Romans 2:14,15. Be more specific. It serves to prove that God's moral law has not been abolished, as has already been stated. God nailed to the cross the levitical law—the sacrifices, holy days, Sabbaths, and all ceremonial law to the cross. We are no longer under the law in that sense. Study Acts 15 as well. The Judaizers were trying to impose circumcision and the law of Moses upon the Gentiles.

SOME Jews were insisting this. Biblical Judaism did not teach justification by Law and thus the Jews did not as a whole teach this. These men were GNOSTICS which teach that men are saved by observing rules. The teaching that all Jews believe they are saved by the Mosaic Law is a Christian missunderstanding.

They said that one could not be saved without it. The decree issued by James, the pastor of the church at Jerusalem, was that circumcision and the law were not binding on the Gentiles, and had no part of Salvation.

Gal.3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
--The O.T. saints were under the law, but the law could not save them. They were "shut up" unto the faith which only afterward would be revealed. The law only showed their sinfulness.

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The "O.T. saints" were under the curse of the law, which is sin and death. They were saved by grace through faith;

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You are arguing against Scripture, and against God. I simply quoted Scripture and you want to say the opposite of it. It plainly says "the faith which only afterward would be revealed." I did not say it; God did. Their faith was in the revelation of God as they knew it, that is faith in Jehovah. It was not faith in the substitutionary work of Christ on the cross which they knew nothing about and could not possibly understand.

Aue contrair mon ami; the core of the faith of the Jews was and still is 'the Messiah to come'. There is much Jewish commentary on Messiah. They simply don't see the Christian Jesus as the Messiah; and they by and large don't see Him because WE DON"T REFLECT HIS IMAGE!!!"

IF the law ONLY serves one purpose! The Torah is much more than that! Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! ON THE CONTRARY WE ESTABLISH THE LAW.

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Again this is a simple matter of unbelief. In relation to Gal.3:24,25, you just simply refuse to believe what the Scripture so plainly says. I didn't write it; God did. The law is our school master to bring us to Christ. We are no longer under the schoolmaster. We are no longer under the law. Accept it or reject it. It is God's Word. He has spoken.
As I have mentioned before "the Law" is used in more than just one sense

AMEN! I had just stated that!

and doesn't always refer to ALL the books of Moses as you infer that it does. It does not refer to the Pentateuch here which is the Torah. It refers more to the Ten Commandments which no man can keep. Have you ever told a lie?

Actually this means, if you follow the law IN THE FLESH you are acting in disobedience. If you follow the law IN THE SPIRIT you are acting according to God.

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Not quite Cotton. "So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God." "If any man have not the Spirit of God, he is none of His" If you don't have the Spirit of God, and are acting entirely out of the flesh, you do not belong to God, and you are not one of his children (again I use "you" generically meaning anybody).

So are you saying that people who choose to obey God by following the Law do not have the Spirit of God?

Finally, Romans 3:31 "Do we make void the Law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the Law. "
DHK [/QUOTE]

Ray Berrian · Mar 15, 2004

Can one or some of Pentecostal brethren establish for us officially, how many gifts of the Spirit there are within the body of Christ?

Seven? Nine? My counting comes to nine. [I Corinthians 12:8-10]

The first fruit of the Spirit is love. [Galatians 5:22] Just saying that we have love for sinners and saints is not enough; we must by our actions and good works portray our most sincere love for everyone. Hey, that's a full time job for every Christian.

Do you think the gift of prophecy in I Corinthians 12:10b is the gift of preaching? The 21st century preach, if he is evangelical, will not only 'forth-tell' the Gospel but also repeat what the Prophets and Apostles 'foretold' about future events such as the Second Coming of Christ. No new 'foretelling' of the future can be from the Lord, just as Roman Catholic add-on theology is to be relegated to myths. The New Century Version says, 'One Spirit, the same Spirit, does all these things, and the Spirit {meaning the Holy Spirit} decides what to give each person.'

DHK · Mar 15, 2004

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

Dear DHK,
You are welcome to believe whatever you wish about the gifts of the Spirit, such as tongues, healing etc. I am not going to argue about scripture with you. After all, in the end, what we believe about different things is between us and God.

It is not a matter of believing whatever I want. It is a matter of obedience to the Word of God, and obeying Jesus Christ, believing Christ and His Word. What would He have me to do and believe? I could believe in Hinduism "if I wanted to," but it would not glorify the Lord, and neither would speaking in tongues. You don't want to "argue" or discuss Scripture because you have none. There is no Scripture that supporst that tongues is for today. Just by a cursory reading of the fouteenth chapter of First Corinthians you know that it is impossible for you to speak in tongues. At the very least the chapter forbids women to speak in tongues. That would eliminate you right away. If you don't have unbelieving Jews in your church it would eliminate you and all the others on that account. If you are not speaking in recognizable languages known to at least some of the people in the congregation, and your tongues (foreign language) is not being translated so that all can understand, then it is not Scriptural either. So just on these points alone you know that the tongues of today are not Scriptural tongues. Compare what you have to the Bible. Opinion and experience do not matter. What does the Bible say?

This is my answer to your premise that if some one truly has the gift of healing they can walk into a hospital and heal everyone.
God is in charge of healing, not people. Some people, for whatever reason(maybe they are old and it is their time to die for example) will not be healed. When I pray for someone to be healed, there is a knowing in my spirit whether it will happen or not. But I will not say to the sick person, "no use praying, it is'nt going to happen.
So sometimes people are healed by God and sometimes not. Sometimes they get well with the help of a Dr.
Why doesn't everyone get healed? I don't know, you'll have to ask God.

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I have asked God. He gave me His answer in His Word. These gifts has ceased. Don't get me wrong. God still heals. I have seen people healed as an answer to prayer; but I do not have the power (like the apostles did) to heal all that come to me. God heals according to His will. But those with the the gift of healing in the first century
could heal ALL who came to them. Now if that gift was still for today that would be happening today. But it doesn't. Frauds like Benny Hinn claim it does. But not even Benny Hinn would dare to take that challenge and get out of his own environment and go to a hospital and heal all that are there. It has been fairly well documented that the healings of Benny Hinn are fraudulent. It also has been fairly well documented that the tongues of today are fraudulent when compared to that which the Apostles spoke. The sign gifts of the first century has ceased. You have an experience but it is not the gift of tongues. It is fraudulent. It is something else. It is not of the Holy Spirit. Those gifts have ceased. If they have not ceased we would still be seeing people that could heal ALL who come to them, but we don't. You need to account for this discrepancy or admit that tongues have ceased and you have a fraudulent gift.

It has been very enlightening talking with you on this subject. I praise God for one thing. I know you believe what you preach, but I am truly grateful that I am NOT in your church.
No gifts, no healing, women can't say much, and everyone must agree with you!

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You don't even have it quite right concerning our church. But I will pray for you and your delusion concerning the spiritual gifts.

Praise God I am free in Jesus to do his work!!

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It's not freedom; it is enslavement to the flesh. Instead of trusting in God's Word you are trusting in a carnal experience to lead you. The Bible teaches not to trust in the flesh, but rather in Christ and His Word.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
DHK

tamborine lady · Mar 15, 2004

Brother Ray,

There are 9 giftd of the spirit.

1. word of wisdom
2. word of knowledge
3. faith
4. healing
5. miracles
6. prophecy
7. discerning of spirits
8. divers(different) kinds of tongues
9. interpretation of tongues

And the Holy Spirit gives them to whomever He wants to.

Sorry Ray, I remember you said brothers could you help, but I just couldn't help myself!

Tam

Ray Berrian · Mar 15, 2004

Tam,

I am just as interested in your opinion and beliefs as men. When I used the term 'brethren' I always thought that that included both women and men Christians.

As you said and as I mentioned in a previous post, I thought there were nine gifts of the Holy Spirit.

May the Lord bless those who have many of them.

I believe my gifts are preaching and teaching and I try to have a kind heart to all people. Sometimes I do get straight forward with those who believe and/or are in error. When you know the truth and have studied mega years, it is a shame for some of the ideas that pass before our eyes. Do you agree?

Thank for this opportunity to re-express myself to my sister in Christ, Tam.

BobRyan · Mar 15, 2004

Originally posted by BobRyan:

There are no more Apostles. No more church leaders with first-hand visible history with Christ having the gift of being called by God as an Apostle.

Originally posted by Jude:
You've obviously never heard of the 'laying on of hands'.

To the contrary -- I "have" not only "heard" about it but also "read" what the Bible says about it. In no place does it state that the Apostleship is "conferred via laying on of hands".

Indeed - we have no example at all of that gift being "passed to someone". In fact - other than Paul (who was not given the ministry of an Apostle by the church) we have "no example" of anyone outside of the first order Apostles receiving that ministry.

Period.

Originally posted by Jude:
Bishops -validly ordained- are the 'descendants' of the original apostles.

Wrong.

There were Bishops (Elders) appointed in "every church" and there is no support in scripture that all local church Elders (Bishops) were "Apostles" or that they had the 1Cor 12 gift of Apostles.

Though some groups "need" that to be the case - scripture does not support it.

Originally posted by Jude:
I have experienced miraculous things in my life, that clearly came from God. I can't 'prove' this to be the case. I have experienced 'words of knowledge'. I have experienced 'holy laughter'. I have experienced an encounter with God that was so 'joyful' that I had to ask Him to stop, for I was sure I couldn't 'take' it any more. I can't PROVE any of this. But I KNOW the Lord gives these gifts to His children. And He does so to glorify His Name, to extend the boundaries of His Kingdom, and to bless His children. If you cannot accept this, that's okay. I'm quite-sure the Lord loves you anyway.

True.

The 1Cor 12 Gifts are valid - and are real - and continue as the text states.

But today's "common" form of tongues just isn't one of the gifts in 1Cor 12. The form practiced today was unknown to the NT church.

In Christ,

Bob

Ray Berrian · Mar 15, 2004

Someone recently made this comment that needs correcting. 'But those with the gift of healing in the first century could heal ALL who came to them.'

This is simply not true and it can be understood by reading Matthew 17:14-21 & Mark 9:27-29. 'And when the man came into the house His disciples asked him privately, Why could not we cast him out? And Jesus said unto them, 'This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting.'

In verse sixteen of the first passage apparently many if not all the disciples {later Apostles} could not cast out the demon. Verse twenty tells us that Jesus told the disciples that they could not do this because of their 'unbelief' or feeling that they did not have the power to do this healing.

What has ceased?

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