What has ceased?

God Bless you brother Ray.

Tam,


And yes , I do agree, it's a shame about some of the things we see on these boards.

 

Try this link!

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pentecostal/New-ch11.htm

It shows that "Tongues" spoken, as the Spirit of God gives the utterance, has not ceased!..also that it never did.

MEE

 

Ray & Tam
Yes their are 9 gifts of the Spirit, but if we use them without love.... then I don't think we would be operating under the right spirit? Paul made a big point of having love when useing gifts (1Cor.13). But I agree the 9 gifts of the Spirit haven't ceased.
God is Love ~ 1John 4:16

Phil. 4:13~ I can do all things through Christ that strengtheneth me.

Music4Him

 

MEE,
The link you posted was a very interesting read.

Thanks,
Music4Him

 

Cotton posted;
If the gifts passed away did the Holy Spirit leave as well?

DHK response;
--The implication is that if we believe in the cessation of the gifts; we don't have the Holy Spirit.

Sorry DHK I didn't mean my post in that way; now I can see where you can reach that conclusion from my post and I should have worded it differently. My thought was that if the gifts in question have ceased, and we come to that conclusion by our interpretation of scripture, what is to keep others from interpreting that the Holy Spirit has left as well? If we have scripture to guide us, is the Holy Spirit still guiding people? I've heard alot of people say they are guided and led by the Holy Spirit but are going in directions different from each another (and I'm referring here to Biblical interpretation).

Cotton

 

All:
Sorry for my double post on page 9 (man this topic is moving fast!) I'm having technical difficulties (must be a kink in the line).

Moderator;
Should we split this topic as it seems to have two different debates going on?
Thanks,
Cotton

 

No problem Cotton~
The boards have a few glitches sometimes too.

Music4Him

 

Downsville;
Hadn't responded to your reply 'cause I think I mostly concur. I'll have to do some study on the understanding of what 'ordinances' translates to in the Law and the Prophets. The word in the 'N.T.' is 'dogma'. Seems everyone has a different take on this meaning depending on their vantage point.
Shalom!
Cotton

 

Feel free to start a new topic. There would be no easy way to split this one as some of the posts relate to both issues.
Gina

 

Before Christ died he healed all that came to Him. After His resurrection He endued His Apostles with power from on High, and with signs and wonders (one of the signs of an Apostle) that others may know that the gospel that they preached was of God. Did they have the power to heal all that came to them? At times in their ministry they did, and at times they did not. The answer is yes they did.
To say no, is to deny Scripture:

Acts 5:15-16 Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them.
16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.

What does every one mean if it doesn't mean everyone?
DHK

 

11 Corinthians 12:7-9

7) And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
8) For this thing I besought the Lord *thrice,* that it might depart from me.
9) An he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness....

THORN: Strong's Concordance 4647 (a bodily annoyance or disability)

MEE

 

Mee,

Oh, I get it; we have an apostle who cannot heal his own body. Hey, that was an easy one for anyone to understand. And the great Apostle Paul at that!!

 

MEE! You go girl!

The funny thing is when I quit smoking...I had that scripture written on a peice of paper that I carried with me every where.

Music4Him

 

Do you have a point here MEE?
It plainly says: "Lest I should be exalted above measure." Paul was told of the purpose of his thorn in the flesh. Let's make it plain and easy to understand. None of the Apostles could heal everyone all of the time. Many of the Apostles and other early Christians could, at certain times in their ministries heal ALL that came to them.

EXAMPLE:
Acts 5:15-16 Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them.
16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.

That is an example of the gift of healing. It was operative then; but it isn't now. If it is give evidence that it is. The same kind of evidence that there was in the Bible--everyone was healed.
If you cannot then you know the gift of healing has ceased.
Likewise you know that the gift of tongues has ceased for the same reasons. Those who claim to practice these so-called gifts are either deceived or out-right frauds.
DHK

 

You are mixing two different problems. In several places the Bible tells us that "all were healed" in fact there were towns were "not a single person" was left sick. In the Apostle's case even passing around the cloth touched by him - resulted in healing.

But the problem you find in Matt 17 has to do with the unbelief and sin in the camp of the saints. When the healer is caughtup in sin and THEN is confronted -- they are compromised.

The disciples were at the foot of the Mt of Transfiguration and were in debate over who was to be greatest in the kingdom - while the three favored ones were on top of that Mountain with Christ. In that compromised state - they could not minister effectively the gifts that they had been given. It was THEY who needed fasting and prayer to be fit for ministry.

The issue was not directed to a problem with the demon possessed boy - but to the problem with the disciples.

Notice that Christ did not go into prayer and fasting over the case of the boy before healing him. In fact he seemed a little miffed at the father of the boy and the unbelief of the crowd.

In Christ,

Bob

 

DHK,
Your point is?
--------------------------------------------------
Acts 5:15-16 Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them.
16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.
--------------------------------------------------

In verse 15 it says at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them. Not all that were sick was healed.

It says in verse 16 says "they brought" fourth the sick and them vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one. But they were brought I cannot just go into a hospital and heal. I am also assuming that the knew of (their signs and wonders) the apostles and what they did and may of had unwavering faith also. The gift of healing is still around today I won't say weather it is or isn't as strong as it was back in Peter's day. But If you have seen 1 person healed of a lung disese that doctors say theres no way it will ever get better. Then 4 to 5 (pick one cuz I'm not good at dates) years later they have a x-ray and its all gone what would you belive? Would you still say healing isn't for today or that it is? (BTW, this is a true story)

Music4Him

 

Hi Carol, sorry I haven't been around to comment for a few days. I hope this wasn't said already. Paul would not have used his gift of healing on himself. Why? you ask. It is a simple concept actually. Paul has made it clear by 1 cor. 12:7 that "gifts" have one purpose, to edify "the body". How would it edify the body to heal himself in the quietness of his home, or when he was alone, as we get the impression he was from the text. Paul asked God to take the "thorn" away but he never exercised the gift of healing, which he could have. You see, Paul of all people would not pervert a spiritual gift, as he was the instructer on spiritual gifts. Healings, like mentioned by DHK, where all were healed, were public meetings, and always were followed by a message. Peter healed to show the authority by which he would then share the Gospel message. There was no Bible to hold up and show God's authority, on matters being discussed. He probably had OT scrolls and things but for matters of Jesus the authority was the "healings" and "miracles" beacause they authenticicated the message that always followed. Healings and miracles have to edify the "body" or they were not being used properly. Paul would have used his gifts appropriately, I think we all can agree on that. Hope that clears up that last point you made anyway.

In Christ our Lord,
Brian

 

The father complains to Jesus that His disciples could not heal his son. [vs.16] In 17 Jesus complains about the general faithlessness of the crowd and former generations. Jesus did not need to pray and fast for the power to heal the 'lunatick.'

His closes disciples asked Jesus why could they not heal the boy. Simple answer. 'And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief . . . ' [vs. 20 b] Jesus said in effect for humans like you, you will acquire this power and authority only when you 'pray and fast.' [vs. 21]

All people touched were not always healed. I'm sure the twelve had red faces when that healing failed.

I do not follow Rev. Hinn, but I saw Him this morning and he preached about having the people accept Christ as personal Savior. I am rather sure that not everyone who 'falls out under the power of the Holy Spirit, gets healed; but it sure is a blessing from the Lord.

If he was such a fraud you have no explanation why thousands of people return at each of his big city meetings.

I do, however, not believe the grand home that he is building for himself. Too many millions of dollars used on himself.

 

Sorry, the referene for my post above is Matthew 17:15-21.