What has ceased?

Amen Mee!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Hey Guys, I just can't help but think we are talking about apples and oranges. The apostles had powers that Jesus gave them but as I see it not a true manifestation of the "gifts" until the day of pentecost when God gave the "gifts" via the entry of the Holy Spirit into the world in a way that he hadn't been in the world before. The example of the disciples/apostles not healing the possesed boy was before the giving of the "gifts" and therefore is not pertinent. You mentioned people in hospitals needing to die because death is natural and we would not want everyone healed everytime because of population issues. That was a good point and makes our case. That may be one of the reasons the gift was only given to get the "church" on its feet and not given as a permanent thing.

OK, once again I will ask this to Carol, Ray, Tam, M4H, atestring. Why is the gift of healing used differently then the gift of teaching, helps , administrations. The Bible says that the "gifts are distrubuted by the Holy Spirit as He sees fit. The Bible says that Peter healed all that came to him. Paul just taught people because that gift was in him. It is the same today. Administrators administrate because they are gifted to do so. People demonstrate love by "helps" because they are gifted to do so. Preachers preach because they are gifted to do so. They don't carry around those gifts in a basket waiting for God to use the gift just here and there. No, those gifts are part of those people. What scripture says that the gifts of healing, miracles, T's, and Int. of T's will be or are different. The fact is that a gift is used by the receiver of the gift. That is the definition of a gift and the reason the word is used to describe what the Holy Spirit gives us. Now please give me a reasonable answer and not a nanny nanny boo boo(ha ha) kind of answer. Actually Ray has done well at giving pretty decent practical answers. Looking forward to some deep responses.

In Christian Love and Concern,
Brian

 

Brian asked: Why is the gift of healing used differently then the gift of teaching, helps , administrations.
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Mark 16:17-18
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

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Brian,
The way I understand it, its to confirm the word to the unbelivers that they might belive. Heres some more scriptures.
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Acts 2:42-44
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. 43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. 44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;

Acts 8:6-13
And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.
7 For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed.
8 And there was great joy in that city.
9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:
10 To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God.
11 And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries. 12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
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Brian said: Administrators administrate because they are gifted to do so. People demonstrate love by "helps" because they are gifted to do so. Preachers preach because they are gifted to do so. They don't carry around those gifts in a basket waiting for God to use the gift just here and there. No, those gifts are part of those people.

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Yes the gifts are a part of the people and the gifts are there whether they choose to use them or not is up to them. Have you ever seen a preacher preach all day..... in parking lots and in the store while shopping? Although its his gift to preach he doesn't do it day in day out. (although I have heard there are a few long winded preachers...hee hee Even so they preach at the proper times.) But if the preacher preached at church and people were convicted, accepted Jesus, and were saved then has his gift of preaching served the purpose? If I went into a hospital for the sole purpose to share the gift of healing and just started laying hands on people to be healed and not first telling them about the salvation that Jesus offers and by whose stripes they were healed. Who would the people belive did the healing? What purpose would it serve if I don't share the good news first? (** some of this about healing is also refering to what I wrote at the bottom of this post 2Thess 2**)
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Mark 16:20 -
And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

2 Corinthians 12:11-13
11 I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing.
12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.
13 For what is it wherein ye were inferior to other churches, except it be that I myself was not burdensome to you? forgive me this wrong.
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Brian asked: What scripture says that the gifts of healing, miracles, T's, and Int. of T's will be or are different.

Music says: Gifts are different in the way they are used, but are of the same Spirit.

1Cor.12:12-26
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14 For the body is not one member, but many.
15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:
25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

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My concern with the use of spiritual gifts...
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2Thessalonians 2:3-12
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
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This passage of scripture plus all the others on false prophets that can be found in the bible, can cause some friction on whether spiritual gifts being used today or if they are of the devil. First things first when going to a church that has signs and wonders you better see if they are preaching the gospel of Jesus' and about His love and truth, that people might be saved (this is first and formost to me). But if they get on stage and preform by only healing and speaking tongues and thats all without the preaching of the gospel message....then you better check the bible and be sure its of God and if not....head for the nearest exit doors and keep on trucking! (Referring to 2Thess.2:9-10 in the above passage)

Concerning the Spiritual gifts with new christians (babes in Christ) or saved people who know nothing about the gifts of the Spirit mentioned in 1Cor.12. Let me ask you this question would you put a 3 year old or a person who has never drove a car behind the wheel of one? I think that is why Paul exsplained them to the people of Corinth. People shoud be taught to use gifts at the appropiate times in the ministry. This is JMHO (just my humble opinion) on the matter.
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Brian I hope I answered your questions? If not hopefully it will help others exspaine it better.

Music4Him

 

Yes and no.

Healing is healing - it is never "kinda healing" so Matt 10 and Heb 12 healing is "the same".

And the New Birth, healing etc is all caused by the Holy Spirit - OT and NT - no difference.

But you are right that the giving of the Holy Spirit en mass was not possible until Acts 2.

That does not matter because Matt 17 happens after Matt 10. And Matt 10 is when they WERE given those ministries by Christ.

Simply not true. God never gives as a reason for not healing "I need more people to die". Lets face it - the world was never overrun by miracle working Christians - not even in the NT.

My argument is that when you see certain gifts like prophecy (Daniel, John the Baptist, the Apostles) the advancement of the church in doctrinal understanding goes by leaps and bounds.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Mark 1:32-34 And at even, when the sun did set, they brought unto him all that were diseased, and them that were possessed with devils.
33 And all the city was gathered together at the door.
34 And he healed many that were sick of divers diseases, and cast out many devils; and suffered not the devils to speak, because they knew him.

Matthew 9:35 And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.

Matthew 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

Matthew 14:14 And Jesus went forth, and saw a great multitude, and was moved with compassion toward them, and he healed their sick.

Matthew 14:35-36 And when the men of that place had knowledge of him, they sent out into all that country round about, and brought unto him all that were diseased;
36 And besought him that they might only touch the hem of his garment: and as many as touched were made perfectly whole.

Acts 5:15-16 Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them.
16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.

For those that don't believe: If Jesus and His disciples could not, did not heal all that came to them, please account for these verses without contradiction in the Bible.
DHK

 

DHK,

As you said, most often Jesus and the disciples healed all who were around them on different occasions.

You, in your last post, if you will check you will find that you used a verse that you meant to omit. Mark 1:34 says, 'And He healed MANY who were sick of various diseases,' but not everyone.

Matthew 17:16 and Mark 9:24 again proves that the disciples did not always heal everyone.

I am also rather sure that you either did not notice or will not admit that our Lord, at times, afflicts His people with sickness, as a form of discipline or chastisement. I'll let you research this for yourself; I believe you are a man who has many resources in your theological library. Your Bible whether Catholic or Protestant version will elevate this for your consideration. [I Corinthians 11:30]

Here is one reference that makes us aware that Jesus sometimes afflicts Christians rather than healing them. There were some in this verse who absolutely were never healed; in fact some of these Christians were taken to Heaven prematurely. { . . . and many sleep}

I am not saying that every time a Christian sins, the Lord will quickly makes a person sick, but He did this after His ascension into Heaven, and disciplines Christians, in our times, who need correction and re-direction in their spiritual life.

 

No doubt there were many instances where 'all' the people were healed. It would be so easy if one had the Lord Jesus Christ standing in front of them.

But...this didn't always happen because of their unbelief.

Matt. 13:57-58

57) And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.
58) And he *did not* many mighty works there because of their unbelief.


MEE

 

Ray
About what you wrote above in your "March 25, 2004 06:24 PM" post.... Is this like the permissisive will deal? If a christian gets out of the perfect will/sins aginst God, so God permits satan to put sickness on them? This is something I have heard some preach but haven't gave it a good study yet.

Music4Him

 

musicforHim,

You said, 'About what you wrote above in your "March 25, 2004 06:24 PM" post.... Is this like the permissisive will deal?

'Ray is saying, 'I do not know if your label 'the permissive will of God' is correct or not. I do know that He takes an active move in the life of the Christian if they start to stray away from Jesus. [Hebrews 12:5-9 & I Corinthians 11:30]

You said, 'If a christian gets out of the perfect will/sins aginst God, so God permits satan to put sickness on them?'

Ray is saying, 'I do not know how the Lord does this, but we must believe that at times He Providentially brings sickness into the lives of Christian believers.' Also, study I Corinthians 5:1-5 and you will see that the Lord gave this man to the 'evil one,' temporalily to wake him up to the reality of His genuine faith in the Lord. Most if not all Biblical commentators agree that this man was restored in a II Corinthians passage of Scripture.

You said, 'This is something I have heard some preach but haven't gave it a good study yet.'

Ray is saying, when I was a teen getting ready for church I heard, Dr. M.R. Dehaan (sp) that the Lord first tries to bring the Christian back to Himself through the Word of God, and when he refuses to obey the Lord, He brings His mighty hand of discipline into the life of the true believer in Jesus. [I Cor. 11:29-34 & I John 5:16] The most extreme discipline is the 'sin unto death' {physical death}, where the true believer is taken to Heaven prematurely.

This does not mean every time you get a cold that you have to take your spiritual pulse. On the other hand, a disobedient Christian can be 'set aside' through sickness or a hospital experience where they will have time to evaluate their disobedience and rebellion and much needed devotion to the Lord.

 

Ray said:
I am also rather sure that you either did not notice or will not admit that our Lord, at times, afflicts His people with sickness, as a form of discipline or chastisement. I'll let you research this for yourself; I believe you are a man who has many resources in your theological library. Your Bible whether Catholic or Protestant version will elevate this for your consideration. [I Corinthians 11:30] {/B]

Music says: I don't guess I get what your saying by looking at the scriptures you left in both post (the one to DHK and the one to me). I don't think its God that afflicts us with sickness, but rather sickness is of the devil. Give me a day or two and or maybe this might make another debate topic? Not unless this is working up to something else that has ceased?

Thanks,
Music4Him

 

Ray, I have never said or taken the position that either Jesus or the Apostles heal ALL, ALL the time. My position has always been that they have the power to heal ALL that came to them, and at variuos times in their ministry (as shown by the Scriptures given) they did heal ALL that came to them. Not ALL the time, but some of the time.

Nowadays there is no one who has this power at any time in their life to heal all that come to them. That is my challenge to the Charismatics. Show me an individual, any given faith-healer or tongue-speaker, whatever, who can heal as the Apostles did--All that came to them. Maybe not all the time; but at least some of the time--even once to twice in their lifetime. They can't do it, for the gift of healing is past. I believe in healing. Healing comes through prayer, and God answering prayer. There is a difference between God answering our prayers and healing someone for that reason, and God giving the supernatural gift of healing--the power to heal all that would come to them. That is the difference.

 

Your problem is one of integrity MEE.
The Apostles, and of course Jesus, at various times in their ministry did heal ALL that came to them. You cannot deny that. It is in the Scripture.
The Charismatics have never had this power at any time to heal all that come to them. Their so-called gift (like the tongues) is completely fraudulent. You have no evidence that it is a genuine gift.
Feeling good doesn't count. Satan can make you feel good.
DHK

 

DHK, you said:

Their so-called gift (like the tongues) is completely fraudulent. You have no evidence that it is a genuine gift.
Feeling good doesn't count. Satan can make you feel good.
DHK
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You need to watch what you say about other Christians.

Matthew 7-7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

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I would really like to know what makes you so bitter against other Christians.

Working for Jesus,

Tam,

 

John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

You judge me wrongly, and you judge on the wrong basis. The Bible commands us to judge, according to John 7:24. You make judgements every day. If you had to have a blood transfusion, would you take blood from someone with AIDS? Aren't you makeing a judgement? If you need to go to a doctor for any reason, would you go to a mechanic instead? Aren't you making a judgement?
You made an unjust judgment and an unjust accusation which is false. I am not bitter against any Christian. You ought to make a retraction if you have any Christian integrity at all.

I am not against Christian; I am against false doctrine. Tongues is one of the most grievous and fast growing false doctrines that there is today. It is a heresy that has deceived many, and led others into cults and damnable heresies resulting in eternal damnation. It leads others into demonic activity, and some into demon possession. If it is of the Holy Spirit how do you explain Voodoo worshippers speaking in tongues, Hindus speaking in tongues, etc. You say this is all of the Holy Spirit. No, this is of the devil. Satan imitates the things of God. What you have is a cheap imitation of the real thing. I feel sorry that you are so deceived. You have been presented Scripture after Scripture, and like the Pharissees of old you reject them all. That is sad, truly sad. You trust your emotions and experiences rather than the Word of God. Experiences are more important to you than the Scriptures. You have had your experience and therefore you know it is true. That is fallacious.

I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

I stand upon the unshakeable promises of the Word of God, not the waffling experiences of mankind.
DHK

 

Hey Tam
Thanks for standing for truth!!
God's word is Truth!!
Truth does not have to be defended.
Truth is simply based upon the Word of God.

 

"Truth does not have to be defended."

Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

1 Peter 3:15 and the Lord God sanctify in your hearts. And be ready always for defence to every one who is asking of you an account concerning the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear; (Young's Literal Translation)

It appears that the Apostles, inspired by the Holy Spirit of God, would disagree with you.
DHK

 

What kind of a god do voodoo and Hindu worshippers pray to? It's most certainly not Jesus Christ!

The baptism of the Holy Ghost comes from heaven!

Acts 2:2&4)
2)And suddenly there came a sound from *HEAVEN*...
4) And they were all filled with the HOLY GHOST , and began to speak with other tongues, AS THE SPIRIT gave them utterance.

DHK, you should be ashamed to try to compare the things that are of God to such evilness!

 

Every believer is baptized of the Holy Spirit when they are born into God's family. That has nothing to do with speaking in tongues, or with water baptism. When one receives Jesus Christ as their Saviour, the Holy Spirit comes and dwells within the believer. You might say in that sense that we are baptized by the Holy Spirit into the family of God. It has nothing to do with tongues. Tongues have ceased. The Day of Pentecost was a historical event that passed away 2,000 years ago. Do flames of fire still hover above your head?

I am not ashamed. And I don't compare things that are of God to evil. But things that are not of God are in and of themselves evil. Tongues is one of the most deceiving and heretical doctrines of this day and age.
DHK

 

DKH,
I think that the cessationist Heresy is the most decieving and heretical doctrines( so called) of this age.

 

What kind of a god do voodoo and Hindu worshippers pray to?

My question still stands!

MEE