The importance of the doctrine of the Trinity

Helen, go to the web and type in this site.

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pentecostal/one-Top.htm

I realize that it is long, but it has a tremendous amount of information about the Oneness of God.

Also, I'm sure it will explain who Jesus was praying to in the garden.

MEE

 

I am not arguing or even debating you because I agree someone does not have to understand the trinity to be saved. I do think they have to acknowledge Christ as Lord. My whole point is that Bob made a misleading or even false statement. Paul DID NOT say Timothy was saved before he came to Christ. He said that the Scriptures equipped him, but that does not mean he was saved. The OT saints are a whole different story as to the amount revealed to them. Christ had already been to earth and died and resurrected and ascended at Timothy's time. However, the basic thing I am pointing out is that Bob's statement is not true as it stands, period. Paul did not say Timothy was saved before he came to Christ. He did say that the Scriptures made him wise for salvation by faith in Christ Jesus. His salvation came with his faith in Christ Jesus, not his knowledge of the Scriptures. There are many who 'know' the Scriptures that are not saved. There is a difference, and I was just pointing out that Bob's statement as it stands is not accurate.

Neal </font>[/QUOTE]For the sake of 'not arguing' (we never do that) :

"Timothy was saved even before becoming a Christian"

THAT is what Bob said. Saved BEFORE becoming a 'follower of Christ'.

This is TOTALLY true. Timothy was a devout Jew. He was ALREADY saved through the old Convenant.

When He 'came to Christ' he became part of the New Covenant.

Simple.

God Bless

 

It should be plain that a person cannot “be saved” before they are “saved.” Timothy may have been a devout Jew before he met Paul, but he was not saved. It was Paul that led him to the Lord.
Suppose that Timothy had never met Paul, and had continued to live the devout Jewish life that he had been living for the next twenty years. Twenty years later, at the time of his death would he be saved? The answer is no. Salvation is only through Christ.

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Timothy was saved because he put his trust in the risen Lord, and for no other reason. This is the problem when you determine your doctrine from a historical book as the Book of Acts. Acts describes the church in transition. Consider what Paul says in 1Cor.10:32

1Cor.10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

Notice that he delineates three groups of people: the Jews, the Gentiles, and the church of God. Both the first epistle to the Corinthians and the epistle to the Ephesians makes it quite clear that we are one in Christ. There is no more Jew or Gentile. The wall of partition is broken down. We are one in Christ. When a Jew becomes a Christian, he is no longer a Jew, he is a Christian. When a Gentile becomes a Christian, he is no longer a Gentile, he is a Christian. The differences are put aside. We are one in Christ. As the Greek had to leave its idolatrous religion behind when he became a Christian, so the Jew had to forsake his Judaism when he became a Christian. When Timothy got saved he became a Christian. He would no longer remain a Jew. He would forsake Judaism. The Jews would continue making their sacrifices, but Timothy would not. His sacrifice for sins had already been made. Once a Christian, the Jews had to forsake Judaism. They had to make a clear break with that system. One cannot be a Jew and a Christian at the same time, just like one cannot be a Muslim and a Christian at the same time. The Jews rejected Christ.
DHK

 

3AM,

Let's first get the facts straight. Here is really what Bob posted:

And Paul states that Timothy was saved even before becoming a Christian.

This is a false statement. Paul did not state that. Bob and you state that, not Paul. You can argue till the cows come home, but that is NOT in the Scripture. That is your deduction, but is not stated by Paul. So Bob's statement is false, because Paul never stated this.

He did state that the sacred writings were able to make him wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. (ESV)

Simple.



Neal

 

Neal,

Ok, so I am going to shut up now, becuase I am retarded.



We are both right on the general idea of what he was trying to say though right?

You agree?

God Bless

 

You wish.

 

Why? Does it really matter to you if I do? Do you 'care' that my beliefs have changed in the last few weeks? Are you 'concerned' for my soul?

I have been intensely studying the trinity doctrine for the past few weeks. (and seriously doubting it for much of my adult life) Someone asked me what I believed, which is what sparked that thread you quoted from. I wanted to see what others believed. I was studying it for myself.

The conclusion that I came to, was done after careful study of the WHOLE Bible, to every verse that has the words 'Lord, God, Jesus, Jehovah, Savior, I am' in them.

I didn't come up with a Trinity.

I am also not on board with the 'Oneness' group.

I don't know what to call what I believe, but here is a run down of it.

Exodus 6:3 states: "And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob by the name of God Almighty, but by My name of Jehovah was I not known to them."

Psalms 83:18 states: "That men may know that THOU, whose NAME ALONE is Jehovah, art the Most High over all the earth."

The SINGULAR NAME of the "Most High God" is Jehovah, which means "The Existing One". Is Jesus the "Most High God"? Let's see:

Mark 5:7 states: "And cried with a loud voice, and said, 'What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou SON of the Most High God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.'"

So, we see here that Jesus is NOT the "Most High God" but is the SON of the Most High God. Jesus is the SON of God the Father. God the Father is the "Most High God" - no if's, and's or but's about it. Now, thus far, we have the following harmonious, Biblical truths:

1.)The ONLY "Most High God" has a NAME of Jehovah and is God the Father.
2.)Jesus Christ, is NOT the "Most High God" - He is HIS SON.

Moving on. What is God's Son's name? The Bible will tell us:

Exodus 23:21 states: "Beware of Him, and obey His voice, provoke Him not; for He will not pardon your transgressions: for MY NAME is in Him."

Hebrews 1:4 states: "Being made so much better than the angels, as He hath BY INHERITANCE obtained a more excellent NAME than they."

Now we can add a third element to our list of harmonious Biblical truths giving us the NAME of God's Son:

3.)Christ Jesus, was GIVEN the NAME of Jehovah. He was NAMED after His FATHER who was the ONLY Jehovah. The Father GAVE HIS NAME to His Son. BY the INHERITANCE of Christ's SONSHIP, and being the "express image" of God the Father's person, the "express image" of the "invisible God", the most "excellent" NAME of the Father, Jehovah, was GIVEN to His only begotten Son. Jehovah is the NAME GIVEN to Christ.

So, before moving on, just to recap, we have the following explicitly and harmoniously presented in the Bible:

1.)The ONE TRUE God, "Most High" has the NAME of Jehovah and His identity is ONE Singular Being, the Father.
2.)Jesus Christ, is NOT the "Most High God" in addition to the Father, but is the SON of the Father, the "Most High God".
3.)Christ, God's Son has INHERITED the NAME of Jehovah, the Sacred NAME of God the Father.

Now, moving on - Who is the Holy Spirit?

Romans 8:9 states: "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man not have the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.

Matthew 10:20 states: "For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you."

Now we can add a fourth element to our list of harmonious Biblical truths identifying who the Holy Spirit is, thus providing us with the Holy Spirit's NAME.

4.)The Holy Spirit is NOT a separate individual deity apart from God the Father and apart from God's Son. The Holy Spirit is both the "Spirit of God" and the "Spirit of Christ". We've already learned from the Scriptures that the NAME of God is Jehovah and that God's Son, Christ Jesus inherited God's Sacred NAME of Jehovah. Therefore, the Holy Spirit, which is without the slightest peradventure of a doubt, the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ - representing THEIR presence in an omnipresent and PERSONAL way has the NAME of Jehovah. For the Spirit of God and Christ is the very personal presence of the Father and His Son who have the NAME of Jehovah - the Father by right because He is the Supreme Deity and His Son by INHERITANCE, because He is the "only begotten", "express image" of the Supreme Deity - God the Father, He ALONE who is Jehovah!

So, when trinitarians bring up the baptismal formula that's used today to prove that God is a triune being I see a problem, for the text says to baptize in the NAME SINGULAR, not nameS, plural. For there's only but ONE Sacred NAME of God. The NAME of the Father, Jehovah. When a person is baptized in the NAME of the Father who is Jehovah, the full authority of the owner of that most SACRED NAME is appealed to. It is the NAME of the "only true God" (John 17:3), who is the Father, who GAVE HIS "only begotten Son" (John 3:16), who shares the SAME SACRED NAME of His Father by the inheritance (Hebrews 1:4) of a true and literal Sonship, Jehovah, who also GIVES to those being baptized, His HOLY Spirit - His personal presence and power to go with them and be with them always - the very PERSONAL PRESENCE of the ONLY Jehovah! We are to be baptized in ONE NAME, for there is ONLY ONE God.

So, to recap once more.

1.)The ONE TRUE God, "Most High" has a NAME of Jehovah and His identity is ONE Singular Divine Being, the Father.
2.)Jesus Christ, is NOT another "Most High God" in addition to the Father, but is the SON of the Father, the "Most High God".
3.)Christ, God's Son has INHERITED the NAME of Jehovah, the Sacred NAME of God the Father.
4.)The Holy Spirit is the PERSONAL PRESENCE of God and Christ who both share the SAME SACRED NAME of Jehovah, - The Father by right of His identity as the Supreme Deity, - The Son of God BY INHERITANCE, being the "express image", the EXACT REPRODUCTION of, the truly LITERALLY begotten HOLY SON of the one and only true Almighty God. So, when God GIVES us HIS Spirit, He's GIVING us HIMSELF, not another 'person' as the trinitarians teach and not just another phase of manefestation as the oneness believers teach.

Therefore, we are baptized in reality in ONLY ONE NAME, not THREE names. For the NAME of the Father, which is Jehovah, is ALSO, by inheritance, the NAME of God's Son, and the Holy Spirit, which is the Spirit of Jehovah, represents the PERSONAL PRESENCE of the Father(Jehovah) and His Son(Jehovah, by inheritance). So, all the glory reverts back to God the Father who, as the Scripture states is "all in all." (1 Corinthians 15:28)

I do not want to base what I believe on our own human understanding. And when we take our own human understanding to its logical conclusion and separate it from what's revealed plainly in the Bible, we get, plainly speaking, cockamamie theological doctrines as is seen in the trithestic trinity. Thus, we get a human answer to a question only Divinity is qualified to reveal. And thankfully, God DOES reveal it. Very beautifully. Very simply. Very harmoniously.

Jehovah. In Hebrew it is YHWH Yahweh. Both are either 'LORD' or 'GOD' in the KJV.

Jehovah is the name of the Father, and also the name of the Son, and the Spirit which is of both is ALSO named Jehovah. YHWH is the synonymous with Jehovah. Adonai is Lord, and Elohim is 'Gods' (plural).

Elohim is the word used in Genesis in the creation account. The Elohim (means: those who came from the sky) created the world, and is translated 'God' in the KJV.

What does the Bible say about who created the worlds? (see Hebrews 1)

God made them THROUGH His Son. How is that? Who is this 'Son' that WORLDS could be made THROUGH Him? He is the WORD of God. Through the WORD of God, the worlds were made. Jesus, The Son, the WORD, the express image of the Father's person, upholds the world with the word of His power. He inherited the name of God, Jehovah because He has been appointed heir of all things, and the Father annointed Him above all others, above Angels, and He (the Father) told Him (the Son) to sit at His (the Father's) right hand until He (the Father) makes His (the Father's) enemies His (the Son's) footstool.

It is through faith that we UNDERSTAND that the worlds were actually MADE by the very WORD of God, and understand that we would know that the things which we CAN see were made by Things which we cannot see. (Heb 11)

The 'Things' which we cannot see, NO man has ever seen. All we have seen is His Love. He sent His only begotten Son to show Himself to us, and show us that HE IS LOVE. We know that we know God, and that He dwells in us, because God has given us of His Spirit, and because we testify that The Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world. Whoever confesses THIS: "Jesus is the SON of God" has God dwelling in Him, by HIS Spirit. By this you will know if someone speaks by the Spirit of God, that if they tell you that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh, then they are of God, and no man has seen God at any time. (1Jn4)

I hope that helped.

God Bless

 

Yes, I agree that I understand what he was saying, but I was just pointing out that his statement was false. I personally don't think Timothy was saved before he came to faith in Christ, but that is another subject. I just had a problem with his statement that he made as fact, when it is false.

I wouldn't call you retarded, and I hope that you didn't take anything I posted as implying that.

Neal

 

Just wondering, where did you get this definition?

Neal

 

Just wondering, where did you get this definition?

Neal </font>[/QUOTE]You know, I don't remember.

Is that not right?

(AND btw, I didn't think anything you said was telling me I was retarded, I just realized that you were arguing with Bob's statement, not the Bible.)

God Bless

 

I must agree with Chemnitz. Why would one speak out of a cloud in approval of one's self? Why would one descend upon one's self? Why or how would/could a person be His own Father and own Son at the same time? Why would the Father introduce Himself into the world as His son??? How can one be begotten and unbegotten at the same time? How can one be unbegotten, yet begotten by himself, yet also proceeding from Himself, and yet eternally in His own bossom???????? Without the doctrine of the Trinity, God becomes the author of confusion, not to mention a liar. </font>[/QUOTE]

Lets just go ahead and end this.

If you stop at verse 16, sure you might think "Ok ANOTHER Comforter which means another person.

But keep reading. What does the very next verse say?

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Now check this out, Jesus just said the world cannot receive the comforter b/c it seeeth him (comforter) not, neither knoweth him (comforter) not. And he went on to tell the Apostles that "Ye know him; for He (the comforter) dwelleth with you, and shall be in you"

Now...Who is dwelling with them? Jesus! And who shall be in them? The eternal Spirit of Jesus or the Comforter.

But wait, dont stop there read the very next verse as well.

Jesus says "I will not leave your comfortless I will come to you (John 14:18).

Isn't that so cool, Jesus is not going to come in the form of a man, he is going to come in the for of a Spirit or the Holy Spirit if you please.

Now that makes since. What Name is The Holy Ghost going to come in? The Name of Jesus!

God bless

 

Well Brian, aren't you feeling 'Chipper' this evening!

Good post...great guy!

Carol

 

Have any of you seen that Monkey poster that says:

I THINK.............THEREFORE I AM CONFUSED !!!!

 

DHK, are you directing your question to ONENESS or SolaScriptura?

BTW, I would like to know what a 'person' is, according to the Trinity doctrine. I'm still trying figure out how it takes three persons to make up one god. But,........that depends how the doctrine of the Trinity explains what a 'person' is, I suppose.

MEE