The importance of the doctrine of the Trinity

Just wondering, where does Paul state this in 2 Tim. 3:13-17?

Neal </font>[/QUOTE]Verse 15.

"And that from a babe thou hast known the sacred writings which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. "

It is shown that the OT writings that Timothy had been hearing from his infancy was CAPABLE of making him KNOW enough to have faith in Jesus, and be saved.

It is true too.

If we never saw any of those writings in the OT, we wouldn't be able to know that Jesus was the Messiah.

I used to have a bumpersticker on my car (it fell off) that said:

"Without the Old Testament, Jesus was just a really nice guy"

It was a response to the New Age 'New Testament only' Christians, the very liberal, type. (you probably know some).

God Bless

 

Originally posted by AITB:

That's what it sounded like you were saying, to me.

Col 1: 15. who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

Of course it teaches that there is only one God. I don't think, I know.

The Trinity DOES NOT teach that there is ONE God. It teaches there is 3 Persons who are ONE in mind, authority, and purpose and that they MAKE UP ONE God. That is different from ONE God.

Then...what is your objection to the doctrine of the Trinity? Setting aside the Catholic stuff about Mary, I mean. What's your objection to the Nicene Creed?



The Nicene Creed? Do you think the Nicene Creed describes the Trinity? That thing says there is ONE God, and it is the Father!!! ONE Lord, JESUS, and then calls the Holy Spirit LORD. It also says the Jesus was begotten before the world began (giving Him a beginning in Spirit), and that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. Hmmmmm Again, do you think that the Nicene Creed supports the Trinity that YOU believe?

I can only see what you tell me. You said you don't believe the doctrine of the Trinity. I'm trying to understand what it is you don't believe about it. If I got that wrong, I'm open to being corrected. Just go for it and correct me...like I said, I only know what you tell me.

Well, when I tell you, you need to actually read what I say. If you have studied the Bible for as long as you said you have, then you should know that the Bible says that the WORD is God. If I said that Jesus is the WORD, then you should see that as 'Jesus is God'.

Because I only know what you tell me! On the one hand you are upset because you think I'm jumping to conclusions about what you believe. On the other hand you think I should know things about your beliefs without you telling me what they are. Those two positions contradict each other. So which is it? Do you want me to guess or are you willing to tell me? I'm trying to understand anything you post. Maybe you aren't being as clear as you think you are. Maybe what you believe is not as self-evident as you think.

Well maybe you shouldn't make yourself out to be so knowlegable, and then I won't assume that you are going to know what I am talking about, so that I will know that I must explain everything to you in minute detail.

So what is your problem with what the Nicene Creed says about the Trinity? Or do you not have a problem with that?

Depends. Are you talking about the WHOLE thing, or just the part about the Father and the Son?

I only know what you tell me, 3AM.

And going into capitals didn't add any clarity btw. But, if it made you feel better...

Anyway, please be specific about what part of the [Protestant] Trinity doctrine you disagree with.

Helen/AITB

Going into caps has NEVER added clarity to ANYTHING that someone posted. It is for EMPHASIS. That means, in your head when you are reading, imaging my voice being raised as I said it. It is YELLING.

I told you at the onset of this discussion that I really didn't want to get into this topic on this board. Do you remember the REASON that I gave?

God Bless

 

3AM, I would like to know this also. I've yet to understand the doctrine of the Trinity. So, maybe you have some light to shed.

Anxiously waiting for your reply!

MEE

 

Not sure exactly to whom this was directed, if any one person in particular, but I am just interested in what 3AM's veiw is, of her belief, in the Godhead.

From what I read, it looks as though it is the same as the doctrine of the Catholic church.

I'm just curious, that's all! Really, I just like to veiw what others believe.

MEE

 

I agree totally with you. But Paul does not say in verse 15 "Timothy, your were saved before you came to know Christ." It said that the scriptures were able to make him wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. That verse, nor any others, say anything about Timothy already being saved before coming to faith in Christ Jesus. I am just pointing out that a statement was made that is not true, or at least is not addressed. It seems clear that Timothy came to salvation by coming to faith in Christ Jesus, and the scriptures helped give him the knowledge to come to that faith.

Neal

 

I agree totally with you. But Paul does not say in verse 15 "Timothy, your were saved before you came to know Christ." It said that the scriptures were able to make him wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. That verse, nor any others, say anything about Timothy already being saved before coming to faith in Christ Jesus. I am just pointing out that a statement was made that is not true, or at least is not addressed. It seems clear that Timothy came to salvation by coming to faith in Christ Jesus, and the scriptures helped give him the knowledge to come to that faith.

Neal </font>[/QUOTE]Ok,
So let me ask you a question that will hopefully help you see what Bob was getting at.

Timothy COULD have been saved WAY before he ever met Jesus, due to the fact that he ALREADY had faith, in a coming Messiah, based on his knowledge of the OT.

Do you see that? The people in the OT didn't even know the name 'Jesus' (well as far as the Messiah is concerned anyhow).

They ALSO didn't know of any 'trinity'.

The point Bob was making (I think) was that if OT believers didn't believe it, it would be safe to say that the Salvation of NT believers does not hinge on believing it.

God Bless

 

It teaches that there is One God and then there is this little thingy called a COLON---&gt; : Which then describes this 'One God' as being 3 Persons. THAT is not ONE God. That is 3 Persons making up a 'Trinity' that is coeternal, coequal, and ONE in mind, authority and 'essense'. A unity of 3 hypostases.

Ok, firstly, you would support a statement that doesn't describe your beliefs EXACTLY?
The statement that Jesus was begotten of the Father before the world was made gives Him a spiritual beginning. He HAD a bodily beginning, in the INCARNATION. The incarnation was a DIVINE person putting on flesh. THAT was His only 'beginning'. Their statement gives Him the 'begotten' status from BEFORE He was begotten. If He was begotten before He was incarnated, then He had a beginning. Another 'mystery' right?

Thank you, it was, and now that we have THAT cleared up, let's move past it.

Oh, you know, the whole 'I've been studying it for 18 years' comment?

Your responses have been far too speculative in nature. If you don't understand something, just ask a question. Don't suggest possible answers that I 'may or may not' say. That will avoid alot of confusion.

Because. You didn't seem to be listening.

Sure. And don't you think it is my right if I don't want to discuss it? I didn't want to just IGNORE your questioning my statement, but then I didn't really want to discuss it either. But here we are.

UH, because I want to LEARN something. Me telling other people what I believe about something doesn't help me learn. As you can see, trying to explain to someone how the enigmatic doctrine of the trinity is false, and that I have an understanding of the Godhead that is most likely new to the people here, is not only provocative to most, but in some here even offensive.

I want to learn which doctrines are shared between the CC and Protestants. That's all. No alterior motive.

Like I said, I am not going to TRY to convince anyone.

Please do refrain from 'suggesting' things that I 'may or may not' believe.

Things will stay kosher if you can do that for me.

God Bless

 

MEE,

Firstly, could you show me what I said that makes you think I agree with the Catholic doctrine of Trinity?

Also, you are Oneness Apostolic Pentecostal (is that right?) and they don't believe in the Catholic Trinity either (right?).

Could you just give me a quick run down of what you guys DO believe in regards to the Godhead?

God Bless

 

Edited:

 

If I am reading this right, we all believe that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are God. Even so, some say that there is One God consisting of 3 Persons (Trinity) while others say that there is One God consisting of 3 "manifestations" of One Person. Who is right? John answers this question in the passages where Jesus speaks of the coming of the Paraclete (Comforter) who is the Holy Spirit (Spirit of Truth).

John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; {17} even the Spirit of truth;"

John 14:26 "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."

John 15:26 "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me."

John 16:7 "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you."

Firstly, Jesus says "I will pray the Father." Who will he pray to? Another Person or another "manifestation" of Himself?

Secondly, He says "he shall give you ANOTHER Comforter." Who will give you this Comforter? The Father! But He calls the Father "HE" not "I." Also, He says "another Comforter" showing that the Comforter is ANOTHER PERSON.

Thirdly, the Comforter will be sent by the Father in Jesus' name. So, we have one Person (the Comforter) being sent BY another Person (the Father) IN the name of another Person (Jesus).

Fourthly, "he shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." NOT I will bring to your remembrance what I said, but He will bring to your remembrance what I said.

Fifthly, "He shall testify of me." NOT I shall testify of myself, but He shall testify of me - thus there are 2 Persons, the Testifier and the one being testified of.

Sixthly, "I go away: because if I don't go away, the Comforter will not come." If Jesus were the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost all in one Person, then he would be the Comforter, as well as the Son and Father -- then He would not have to go away for the Comforter to come, nor would the Comforter need to come because He would already be with them since He would be Jesus! But in that He says He must leave for the Comforter to come, He shows that He is another Person.

John 16:13 "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come"

LASTLY, the Spirit of Truth, the Comforter would not speak of Himself but of Jesus. IF Jesus were the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost all in one Person, then He would be the Comforter and would NOT be able to say "the Comforter will not speak of Himself but of me" for if they were the same Person then speaking of himself would also be speaking of me!

Add to all this 1 John 5:7, and the ABSOLUTE FACT OF THE TRINITY IS ESTABLISHED. The question was asked "Can a person be a Christian and not believe in the Trinity?" Well, a person cannot thoughtfully read the Gospel of John and not believe the Trinity! Not unless they are lying to themselves.

I must agree with Chemnitz. Why would one speak out of a cloud in approval of one's self? Why would one descend upon one's self? Why or how would/could a person be His own Father and own Son at the same time? Why would the Father introduce Himself into the world as His son??? How can one be begotten and unbegotten at the same time? How can one be unbegotten, yet begotten by himself, yet also proceeding from Himself, and yet eternally in His own bossom???????? Without the doctrine of the Trinity, God becomes the author of confusion, not to mention a liar.

[ March 18, 2003, 06:26 PM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura in 2003 ]

 

Well, I can try. It's hard to explain something as beautiful, as the Godhead in just a few short word.

I have a link that explains it very well, but I couldn't get it to work, on this board.

1 Tim. 3:16 says it very well, for just a quick run down.

16) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God (Jesus) was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

In other words, God came to Earth, in the form of a man, through the bloodline of David. God was to save His people, from their sins. Sin can't be forgiven without the shedding of blood.

Since God was a Spirit and without blood, He had to take upon Himself a body in order to be able to shed His blood for the sins of mankind.

After all of this was accomplished, He was received up into glory in order to come unto us in the form of the Holy Spirit.

I wish the link would have worked. It explains the Godhead extremely well.

MEE

 

Here is one of the best descriptions of the trinity that I know of written by a friend of mine.

"Biblical Christianity teaches that there is only one God. This truth is affirmed again and again in the Bible [Deuteronomy 6:4; Isaiah 45:5; 1 Corinthians 8:4; 1 Timothy 2:5]. The Bible teaches that God is an infinite being Who has no comparison or likeness [Isaiah 40:18,25]. He is an infinite being, Who can only be known by the revelation which He gives of Himself. In John 1:1,2, this infinite God reveals that He unites in the substance of His being a second infinite, eternal Almighty Person, one Whose eternal name is “the Word” [John 1:1; Revelation 19:13]. Being one in substance with God, He also is God. But He is not a second God. In the substance of His being the one true God unites two Infinite, Eternal Almighty Persons. These Persons are co-equal and co-eternal. Both are God, but being of one substance, there is only one God. This is a mystery [Colossians 2:2], which finite persons cannot fully understand . To fully understand it one would also have to be infinite.

This second Person, God-the-Word, Whom the infinite God unites with Himself in the substance of His being, is also most definitely an infinite Person. Because He is infinite, He can be known only by revelation. No man fully knows Him. He is known in the reality of His Person only by God Jehovah [Matthew 11:27]. The Scriptures were given by God to give revelation about this second Person Who is also called God. Those who reject the testimony which God Jehovah has given by the third Person Who is united in the substance of God, God-the-Holy-Spirit, are guilty of blasphemously calling God a liar [1 John 5:10]. Those who teach something about Him which the Scriptures do no teach are, in reality, blasphemously claiming to have greater knowledge than the infinite God.

In further revelation of Himself, the infinite God reveals that there is a third Person united in the substance of God. This third person is called the Holy Spirit [Matthew 28:19], or the Spirit of truth [John 14:17]. We know that He is one in substance with God because He is called the eternal Spirit [Hebrews 9:14]. Only God is eternal, and since there is only one God, He also must be one in substance with the other persons Who are also called God. So important is this third Person Who is one in substance with God, that blasphemy against Him will never be forgiven [Matthew 12:31,32]. Even denying that He is one in substance with the other two Persons Who are named God may be blasphemy against Him. Further, since He is the One Who moved the writers of the Bible, including the Gospels [John 14:26] to record what they wrote [Acts 28:25; 2 Peter 1:21], rejection and denial of these may also be blasphemy against Him [Hebrews 10:29]. Those who deny the truth of the Scriptures should beware lest they blaspheme the Holy Spirit, Who, through the Scriptures offer them grace, the undeserved favor of God through Christ’s death as a substitute in their place [1 Peter 3:18]. Rejection of the message of Christ’s death for sinners is rejection of the message declared by God, the Holy Spirit, in the Scriptures. Rejection of it will bring awful consequences and condemnation [Hebrews 10:26-31]."

DHK

 

I am not arguing or even debating you because I agree someone does not have to understand the trinity to be saved. I do think they have to acknowledge Christ as Lord. My whole point is that Bob made a misleading or even false statement. Paul DID NOT say Timothy was saved before he came to Christ. He said that the Scriptures equipped him, but that does not mean he was saved. The OT saints are a whole different story as to the amount revealed to them. Christ had already been to earth and died and resurrected and ascended at Timothy's time. However, the basic thing I am pointing out is that Bob's statement is not true as it stands, period. Paul did not say Timothy was saved before he came to Christ. He did say that the Scriptures made him wise for salvation by faith in Christ Jesus. His salvation came with his faith in Christ Jesus, not his knowledge of the Scriptures. There are many who 'know' the Scriptures that are not saved. There is a difference, and I was just pointing out that Bob's statement as it stands is not accurate.

Neal

 

A person in this day and age cannot be saved unless they believe that Jesus Christ is God. You can "receive Jesus as your Saviour," but if your "Jesus" is not the Jesus of the Bible, you are not saved. The Jesus of the Bible is God incarnate.
DHK