The importance of the doctrine of the Trinity

[MEE]

Originally posted by AITB:
MEE, I'm sorry you couldn't get the link to work. Usually if you put it in this format it will work:
{url=http://www.whatever-it-is/}some words describing the page{/url}

but use square instead of curly parentheses and put the actual url of your page and some words descriptive of the actual page.

When Jesus prayed - in the Garden of Gethsemane or anywhere else - who was he praying to? I think I understand what you believe except for that part.

Helen/AITB

Helen, go to the web and type in this site.

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pentecostal/one-Top.htm

I realize that it is long, but it has a tremendous amount of information about the Oneness of God.

Also, I'm sure it will explain who Jesus was praying to in the garden.

MEE

 

[AITB]

Thanks, MEE!

Ok, yes, that page does address what I asked about. Here is the section:

The Prayers Of Christ

Do the prayers of Christ indicate a distinction of persons between Jesus and the Father? No. On the contrary, His praying indicates a distinction between the Son of God and God. Jesus prayed in His humanity, not in His deity. If the prayers of Jesus demonstrate that the divine nature of Jesus is different than the Father, then Jesus is inferior to the Father in deity. In other words, if Jesus prayed as God then His position in the Godhead would be somehow inferior to the other "persons." This one example effectively destroys the concept of a trinity of co-equal persons.

How can God pray and still be God? By definition, God in His omnipotence has no need to pray, and in His oneness has no other to whom He can pray. If the prayers of Jesus prove there are two persons in the Godhead, then one of those persons is subordinate to the other and therefore not fully or truly God.

What, then, is the explanation of the prayers of Christ? It can only be that the human nature of Jesus prayed to the eternal Spirit of God. The divine nature did not need help; only the human nature did. As Jesus said at the Garden of Gethsemane, "The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak" (Matthew 26:41). Hebrews 5:7 makes it clear that Jesus needed to pray only during "the days of his flesh." During the prayer at Gethsemane, the human will submitted itself to the divine will. Through prayer His human nature learned to submit and be obedient to the Spirit of God (Philippians 2:8; Hebrews 5:7-8). This was not a struggle between two divine wills, but a struggle between the human and divine wills in Jesus. As a man Jesus submitted Himself to and received strength from the Spirit of God.

Some may object to this explanation, contending that it means Jesus prayed to Himself. However, we must realize that, unlike any other human being, Jesus had two perfect and complete natures - humanity and divinity. What would be absurd or impossible for an ordinary man is not so strange with Jesus. We do not say Jesus prayed to Himself, for that incorrectly implies Jesus had only one nature like ordinary men. Rather, we say the human nature of Jesus prayed to the divine Spirit of Jesus that dwelt in the man.

It says Jesus' human will prayed to Jesus' divine will.

I never thought Jesus had two wills in that way but...I appreciate that you gave me a link with the answer to my question on it

Helen/AITB

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Timothy COULD have been saved WAY before he ever met Jesus, due to the fact that he ALREADY had faith, in a coming Messiah, based on his knowledge of the OT.

Do you see that? The people in the OT didn't even know the name 'Jesus' (well as far as the Messiah is concerned anyhow).

They ALSO didn't know of any 'trinity'.

The point Bob was making (I think) was that if OT believers didn't believe it, it would be safe to say that the Salvation of NT believers does not hinge on believing it.

I am not arguing or even debating you because I agree someone does not have to understand the trinity to be saved. I do think they have to acknowledge Christ as Lord. My whole point is that Bob made a misleading or even false statement. Paul DID NOT say Timothy was saved before he came to Christ. He said that the Scriptures equipped him, but that does not mean he was saved. The OT saints are a whole different story as to the amount revealed to them. Christ had already been to earth and died and resurrected and ascended at Timothy's time. However, the basic thing I am pointing out is that Bob's statement is not true as it stands, period. Paul did not say Timothy was saved before he came to Christ. He did say that the Scriptures made him wise for salvation by faith in Christ Jesus. His salvation came with his faith in Christ Jesus, not his knowledge of the Scriptures. There are many who 'know' the Scriptures that are not saved. There is a difference, and I was just pointing out that Bob's statement as it stands is not accurate.

Neal </font>[/QUOTE]For the sake of 'not arguing' (we never do that) :

"Timothy was saved even before becoming a Christian"

THAT is what Bob said. Saved BEFORE becoming a 'follower of Christ'.

This is TOTALLY true. Timothy was a devout Jew. He was ALREADY saved through the old Convenant.

When He 'came to Christ' he became part of the New Covenant.

Simple.

God Bless

 

[DHK]

It should be plain that a person cannot “be saved” before they are “saved.” Timothy may have been a devout Jew before he met Paul, but he was not saved. It was Paul that led him to the Lord.
Suppose that Timothy had never met Paul, and had continued to live the devout Jewish life that he had been living for the next twenty years. Twenty years later, at the time of his death would he be saved? The answer is no. Salvation is only through Christ.

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Timothy was saved because he put his trust in the risen Lord, and for no other reason. This is the problem when you determine your doctrine from a historical book as the Book of Acts. Acts describes the church in transition. Consider what Paul says in 1Cor.10:32

1Cor.10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

Notice that he delineates three groups of people: the Jews, the Gentiles, and the church of God. Both the first epistle to the Corinthians and the epistle to the Ephesians makes it quite clear that we are one in Christ. There is no more Jew or Gentile. The wall of partition is broken down. We are one in Christ. When a Jew becomes a Christian, he is no longer a Jew, he is a Christian. When a Gentile becomes a Christian, he is no longer a Gentile, he is a Christian. The differences are put aside. We are one in Christ. As the Greek had to leave its idolatrous religion behind when he became a Christian, so the Jew had to forsake his Judaism when he became a Christian. When Timothy got saved he became a Christian. He would no longer remain a Jew. He would forsake Judaism. The Jews would continue making their sacrifices, but Timothy would not. His sacrifice for sins had already been made. Once a Christian, the Jews had to forsake Judaism. They had to make a clear break with that system. One cannot be a Jew and a Christian at the same time, just like one cannot be a Muslim and a Christian at the same time. The Jews rejected Christ.
DHK

 

[AITB]

3AM, what changed between March 3, when you posted that you agreed with the SDA doctrine of the Trinity, and March 17, when you posted that you don't believe in the Trinity?

Were you in fact supporting a statement that didn't agree with your beliefs exactly, on March 3? (Inn this thread, if you recall, you rolled your eyes at the thought that I might do that)

Helen/AITB

 

[neal4christ]

3AM,

Let's first get the facts straight. Here is really what Bob posted:

And Paul states that Timothy was saved even before becoming a Christian.

This is a false statement. Paul did not state that. Bob and you state that, not Paul. You can argue till the cows come home, but that is NOT in the Scripture. That is your deduction, but is not stated by Paul. So Bob's statement is false, because Paul never stated this.

He did state that the sacred writings were able to make him wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. (ESV)

Simple.



Neal

 

[3AngelsMom]

Neal,

Ok, so I am going to shut up now, becuase I am retarded.



We are both right on the general idea of what he was trying to say though right?

You agree?

God Bless

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by AITB:
3AM, what changed between March 3, when you posted that you agreed with the SDA doctrine of the Trinity, and March 17, when you posted that you don't believe in the Trinity?

Were you in fact supporting a statement that didn't agree with your beliefs exactly, on March 3? (Inn this thread, if you recall, you rolled your eyes at the thought that I might do that)

Helen/AITB

You wish.

 

[AITB]

3AM, your beliefs are yours to decide. What I'm wondering is what changed between March 3 and the beginning of this week, that on March 3 you agreed with the SDA belief in the Trinity and two weeks later you don't believe in the Trinity any more.

I hope you have a reason.

Helen/AITB

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by AITB:
3AM, your beliefs are yours to decide. What I'm wondering is what changed between March 3 and the beginning of this week, that on March 3 you agreed with the SDA belief in the Trinity and two weeks later you don't believe in the Trinity any more.

I hope you have a reason.

Helen/AITB

Why? Does it really matter to you if I do? Do you 'care' that my beliefs have changed in the last few weeks? Are you 'concerned' for my soul?

I have been intensely studying the trinity doctrine for the past few weeks. (and seriously doubting it for much of my adult life) Someone asked me what I believed, which is what sparked that thread you quoted from. I wanted to see what others believed. I was studying it for myself.

The conclusion that I came to, was done after careful study of the WHOLE Bible, to every verse that has the words 'Lord, God, Jesus, Jehovah, Savior, I am' in them.

I didn't come up with a Trinity.

I am also not on board with the 'Oneness' group.

I don't know what to call what I believe, but here is a run down of it.

Exodus 6:3 states: "And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob by the name of God Almighty, but by My name of Jehovah was I not known to them."

Psalms 83:18 states: "That men may know that THOU, whose NAME ALONE is Jehovah, art the Most High over all the earth."

The SINGULAR NAME of the "Most High God" is Jehovah, which means "The Existing One". Is Jesus the "Most High God"? Let's see:

Mark 5:7 states: "And cried with a loud voice, and said, 'What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou SON of the Most High God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.'"

So, we see here that Jesus is NOT the "Most High God" but is the SON of the Most High God. Jesus is the SON of God the Father. God the Father is the "Most High God" - no if's, and's or but's about it. Now, thus far, we have the following harmonious, Biblical truths:

1.)The ONLY "Most High God" has a NAME of Jehovah and is God the Father.
2.)Jesus Christ, is NOT the "Most High God" - He is HIS SON.

Moving on. What is God's Son's name? The Bible will tell us:

Exodus 23:21 states: "Beware of Him, and obey His voice, provoke Him not; for He will not pardon your transgressions: for MY NAME is in Him."

Hebrews 1:4 states: "Being made so much better than the angels, as He hath BY INHERITANCE obtained a more excellent NAME than they."

Now we can add a third element to our list of harmonious Biblical truths giving us the NAME of God's Son:

3.)Christ Jesus, was GIVEN the NAME of Jehovah. He was NAMED after His FATHER who was the ONLY Jehovah. The Father GAVE HIS NAME to His Son. BY the INHERITANCE of Christ's SONSHIP, and being the "express image" of God the Father's person, the "express image" of the "invisible God", the most "excellent" NAME of the Father, Jehovah, was GIVEN to His only begotten Son. Jehovah is the NAME GIVEN to Christ.

So, before moving on, just to recap, we have the following explicitly and harmoniously presented in the Bible:

1.)The ONE TRUE God, "Most High" has the NAME of Jehovah and His identity is ONE Singular Being, the Father.
2.)Jesus Christ, is NOT the "Most High God" in addition to the Father, but is the SON of the Father, the "Most High God".
3.)Christ, God's Son has INHERITED the NAME of Jehovah, the Sacred NAME of God the Father.

Now, moving on - Who is the Holy Spirit?

Romans 8:9 states: "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man not have the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.

Matthew 10:20 states: "For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you."

Now we can add a fourth element to our list of harmonious Biblical truths identifying who the Holy Spirit is, thus providing us with the Holy Spirit's NAME.

4.)The Holy Spirit is NOT a separate individual deity apart from God the Father and apart from God's Son. The Holy Spirit is both the "Spirit of God" and the "Spirit of Christ". We've already learned from the Scriptures that the NAME of God is Jehovah and that God's Son, Christ Jesus inherited God's Sacred NAME of Jehovah. Therefore, the Holy Spirit, which is without the slightest peradventure of a doubt, the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ - representing THEIR presence in an omnipresent and PERSONAL way has the NAME of Jehovah. For the Spirit of God and Christ is the very personal presence of the Father and His Son who have the NAME of Jehovah - the Father by right because He is the Supreme Deity and His Son by INHERITANCE, because He is the "only begotten", "express image" of the Supreme Deity - God the Father, He ALONE who is Jehovah!

So, when trinitarians bring up the baptismal formula that's used today to prove that God is a triune being I see a problem, for the text says to baptize in the NAME SINGULAR, not nameS, plural. For there's only but ONE Sacred NAME of God. The NAME of the Father, Jehovah. When a person is baptized in the NAME of the Father who is Jehovah, the full authority of the owner of that most SACRED NAME is appealed to. It is the NAME of the "only true God" (John 17:3), who is the Father, who GAVE HIS "only begotten Son" (John 3:16), who shares the SAME SACRED NAME of His Father by the inheritance (Hebrews 1:4) of a true and literal Sonship, Jehovah, who also GIVES to those being baptized, His HOLY Spirit - His personal presence and power to go with them and be with them always - the very PERSONAL PRESENCE of the ONLY Jehovah! We are to be baptized in ONE NAME, for there is ONLY ONE God.

So, to recap once more.

1.)The ONE TRUE God, "Most High" has a NAME of Jehovah and His identity is ONE Singular Divine Being, the Father.
2.)Jesus Christ, is NOT another "Most High God" in addition to the Father, but is the SON of the Father, the "Most High God".
3.)Christ, God's Son has INHERITED the NAME of Jehovah, the Sacred NAME of God the Father.
4.)The Holy Spirit is the PERSONAL PRESENCE of God and Christ who both share the SAME SACRED NAME of Jehovah, - The Father by right of His identity as the Supreme Deity, - The Son of God BY INHERITANCE, being the "express image", the EXACT REPRODUCTION of, the truly LITERALLY begotten HOLY SON of the one and only true Almighty God. So, when God GIVES us HIS Spirit, He's GIVING us HIMSELF, not another 'person' as the trinitarians teach and not just another phase of manefestation as the oneness believers teach.

Therefore, we are baptized in reality in ONLY ONE NAME, not THREE names. For the NAME of the Father, which is Jehovah, is ALSO, by inheritance, the NAME of God's Son, and the Holy Spirit, which is the Spirit of Jehovah, represents the PERSONAL PRESENCE of the Father(Jehovah) and His Son(Jehovah, by inheritance). So, all the glory reverts back to God the Father who, as the Scripture states is "all in all." (1 Corinthians 15:28)

I do not want to base what I believe on our own human understanding. And when we take our own human understanding to its logical conclusion and separate it from what's revealed plainly in the Bible, we get, plainly speaking, cockamamie theological doctrines as is seen in the trithestic trinity. Thus, we get a human answer to a question only Divinity is qualified to reveal. And thankfully, God DOES reveal it. Very beautifully. Very simply. Very harmoniously.

Jehovah. In Hebrew it is YHWH Yahweh. Both are either 'LORD' or 'GOD' in the KJV.

Jehovah is the name of the Father, and also the name of the Son, and the Spirit which is of both is ALSO named Jehovah. YHWH is the synonymous with Jehovah. Adonai is Lord, and Elohim is 'Gods' (plural).

Elohim is the word used in Genesis in the creation account. The Elohim (means: those who came from the sky) created the world, and is translated 'God' in the KJV.

What does the Bible say about who created the worlds? (see Hebrews 1)

God made them THROUGH His Son. How is that? Who is this 'Son' that WORLDS could be made THROUGH Him? He is the WORD of God. Through the WORD of God, the worlds were made. Jesus, The Son, the WORD, the express image of the Father's person, upholds the world with the word of His power. He inherited the name of God, Jehovah because He has been appointed heir of all things, and the Father annointed Him above all others, above Angels, and He (the Father) told Him (the Son) to sit at His (the Father's) right hand until He (the Father) makes His (the Father's) enemies His (the Son's) footstool.

It is through faith that we UNDERSTAND that the worlds were actually MADE by the very WORD of God, and understand that we would know that the things which we CAN see were made by Things which we cannot see. (Heb 11)

The 'Things' which we cannot see, NO man has ever seen. All we have seen is His Love. He sent His only begotten Son to show Himself to us, and show us that HE IS LOVE. We know that we know God, and that He dwells in us, because God has given us of His Spirit, and because we testify that The Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world. Whoever confesses THIS: "Jesus is the SON of God" has God dwelling in Him, by HIS Spirit. By this you will know if someone speaks by the Spirit of God, that if they tell you that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh, then they are of God, and no man has seen God at any time.

(1Jn4)

I hope that helped.

God Bless

 

[neal4christ]

We are both right on the general idea of what he was trying to say though right?

You agree?

Yes, I agree that I understand what he was saying, but I was just pointing out that his statement was false. I personally don't think Timothy was saved before he came to faith in Christ, but that is another subject. I just had a problem with his statement that he made as fact, when it is false.

I wouldn't call you retarded, and I hope that you didn't take anything I posted as implying that.

Neal

 

[neal4christ]

The Elohim (means: those who came from the sky) created the world

Just wondering, where did you get this definition?

Neal

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> The Elohim (means: those who came from the sky) created the world

Just wondering, where did you get this definition?

Neal </font>[/QUOTE]You know, I don't remember.

Is that not right?

(AND btw, I didn't think anything you said was telling me I was retarded, I just realized that you were arguing with Bob's statement, not the Bible.)

God Bless

 

[AITB]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by AITB:
3AM, your beliefs are yours to decide. What I'm wondering is what changed between March 3 and the beginning of this week, that on March 3 you agreed with the SDA belief in the Trinity and two weeks later you don't believe in the Trinity any more.

I hope you have a reason.

Helen/AITB

Why? Does it really matter to you if I do? Do you 'care' that my beliefs have changed in the last few weeks? Are you 'concerned' for my soul?</font>[/QUOTE]I do care that you have reasons for what you believe, actually.

I have been intensely studying the trinity doctrine for the past few weeks.

That's what I was wondering, when I saw your March 3 post.

(and seriously doubting it for much of my adult life) Someone asked me what I believed, which is what sparked that thread you quoted from. I wanted to see what others believed. I was studying it for myself.

I think that's good.

The conclusion that I came to, was done after careful study of the WHOLE Bible, to every verse that has the words 'Lord, God, Jesus, Jehovah, Savior, I am' in them.

I didn't come up with a Trinity.

I am also not on board with the 'Oneness' group.

I don't know what to call what I believe, but here is a run down of it.

Thanks for sharing it.

Exodus 6:3 states: "And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob by the name of God Almighty, but by My name of Jehovah was I not known to them."

Psalms 83:18 states: "That men may know that THOU, whose NAME ALONE is Jehovah, art the Most High over all the earth."

The SINGULAR NAME of the "Most High God" is Jehovah, which means "The Existing One".

I believe that too.

Is Jesus the "Most High God"? Let's see:

Mark 5:7 states: "And cried with a loud voice, and said, 'What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou SON of the Most High God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.'"

So, we see here that Jesus is NOT the "Most High God" but is the SON of the Most High God. Jesus is the SON of God the Father. [/b][/quote]

I believe that too which is why I am not a "Oneness" believer. Fwiw I like that they honor Jesus so much and it's hard for me to think God [the Father] would be especially angry about that. But...that's just my opinion.

God the Father is the "Most High God" - no if's, and's or but's about it.

Ok, I don't think this follows. I don't think it's necessarily true that Jehovah (I prefer YHWH actually) is God the Father. I think YHWH is God. The Bible never specifies that YHWH or Jehovah is God the Father does it?

Plus, look what happens when OT passages are quoted, which include the word "Jehovah". The word is translated "Lord". Romans 10 calls Jesus "Lord". So the word which was YHWH in the OT is now applied to Jesus.

And when Jesus says "I am" in John's gospel ("Before Abraham was, I am" and also in one or two other places) I believe he is deliberately invoking the name YHWH, regarding himself - the name literally meaning "I am".

1.)The ONLY "Most High God" has a NAME of Jehovah and is God the Father.

Do you have any verses that say Jehovah/YHWH equates to God the Father?

2.)Jesus Christ, is NOT the "Most High God" - He is HIS SON.

Son can mean all kinds of things. In this case it does not mean Jesus is not God, in my opinion.

Moving on. What is God's Son's name? The Bible will tell us:

Exodus 23:21 states: "Beware of Him, and obey His voice, provoke Him not; for He will not pardon your transgressions: for MY NAME is in Him."

Hebrews 1:4 states: "Being made so much better than the angels, as He hath BY INHERITANCE obtained a more excellent NAME than they."

Now we can add a third element to our list of harmonious Biblical truths giving us the NAME of God's Son:

3.)Christ Jesus, was GIVEN the NAME of Jehovah. He was NAMED after His FATHER who was the ONLY Jehovah. The Father GAVE HIS NAME to His Son. BY the INHERITANCE of Christ's SONSHIP, and being the "express image" of God the Father's person, the "express image" of the "invisible God", the most "excellent" NAME of the Father, Jehovah, was GIVEN to His only begotten Son. Jehovah is the NAME GIVEN to Christ.

So, before moving on, just to recap, we have the following explicitly and harmoniously presented in the Bible:

1.)The ONE TRUE God, "Most High" has the NAME of Jehovah and His identity is ONE Singular Being, the Father.
2.)Jesus Christ, is NOT the "Most High God" in addition to the Father, but is the SON of the Father, the "Most High God".
3.)Christ, God's Son has INHERITED the NAME of Jehovah, the Sacred NAME of God the Father.

Ok, I see two problems with this already, just from John 1:1.

In the beginning the Word was God. Not "had the name of God" but WAS God. That's different. Also, this already was true in the beginning. it was not something that happened at some future point of 'inheritance'.

Now, moving on - Who is the Holy Spirit?

Romans 8:9 states: "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man not have the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.

Matthew 10:20 states: "For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you."

Now we can add a fourth element to our list of harmonious Biblical truths identifying who the Holy Spirit is, thus providing us with the Holy Spirit's NAME.

4.)The Holy Spirit is NOT a separate individual deity apart from God the Father and apart from God's Son.

And the Trinity doctrine doesn't say the Holy Spirit is 'separate'. The Father, Son and Spirit are one.

The Holy Spirit is both the "Spirit of God" and the "Spirit of Christ". We've already learned from the Scriptures that the NAME of God is Jehovah and that God's Son, Christ Jesus inherited God's Sacred NAME of Jehovah. Therefore, the Holy Spirit, which is without the slightest peradventure of a doubt, the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ - representing THEIR presence in an omnipresent and PERSONAL way has the NAME of Jehovah. For the Spirit of God and Christ is the very personal presence of the Father and His Son who have the NAME of Jehovah - the Father by right because He is the Supreme Deity and His Son by INHERITANCE, because He is the "only begotten", "express image" of the Supreme Deity - God the Father, He ALONE who is Jehovah!

What about the verse that says "The Lord (that Jehovah/YHWH word again, taken into Greek!), who is the Spirit"? (I think it's in 2 Cor 3)

It's stronger than "the Spirit has the name of YHWH"

Although, 'having the name' is a much stronger statement in Scripture than it is in our culture. It means way more than simply being called the same thing. But if it's strong enough that it means 'is', in places, then it's best to use 'is' in our culture, so as not to be confusing.

So, when trinitarians bring up the baptismal formula that's used today to prove that God is a triune being

I've never used that as proof. I go to the verses that say each of the Father, Son and Spirit is God (Jehovah/YHWH).

I see a problem, for the text says to baptize in the NAME SINGULAR, not nameS, plural. For there's only but ONE Sacred NAME of God. The NAME of the Father, Jehovah. When a person is baptized in the NAME of the Father who is Jehovah, the full authority of the owner of that most SACRED NAME is appealed to. It is the NAME of the "only true God" (John 17:3), who is the Father, who GAVE HIS "only begotten Son" (John 3:16), who shares the SAME SACRED NAME of His Father by the inheritance (Hebrews 1:4) of a true and literal Sonship, Jehovah, who also GIVES to those being baptized, His HOLY Spirit - His personal presence and power to go with them and be with them always - the very PERSONAL PRESENCE of the ONLY Jehovah! We are to be baptized in ONE NAME, for there is ONLY ONE God.

I agree with some of this.

I'll read the rest later; for now I'll end with some general comments.

I think it's great you study the Bible for yourself. I think it's advisable to also study what Christians have said about foundational doctrines that are believed by many Christians, so you can see where they are coming from. Maybe you have done this regarding the 'doctrine of the Trinity'. Anyway, I certainly don't expect you to just 'accept' what someone else says the Bible teaches. Your way of studying it for yourself is much better.

In my experience, those who don't believe in the Trinity tend to underemphasize Jesus. So I suggest you be careful about that as you work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

And I'm sorry you thought I was being antagonistic. I wasn't; I just wanted to know where your current beliefs come from.

Helen/AITB

 

[AITB]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
So, to recap once more.

1.)The ONE TRUE God, "Most High" has a NAME of Jehovah and His identity is ONE Singular Divine Being, the Father.
2.)Jesus Christ, is NOT another "Most High God" in addition to the Father, but is the SON of the Father, the "Most High God".

I don't understand how you can believe Jesus is in the express image of God the Father and is not God but yet Jesus is not another 'God'.

The Trinity doctrine resolves this by not simply saying Jesus has the name YHWH, but rather Jesus is YHWH. Therefore, only one God. But you seem to have two: God the Father and Jesus, who has all God the Father's attributes and has the name of God but is not God. So Jesus must be a separate person. But Jesus has all the attributes of God, being an exact replica of God. Therefore, you have two Gods, don't you?

3.)Christ, God's Son has INHERITED the NAME of Jehovah, the Sacred NAME of God the Father.
4.)The Holy Spirit is the PERSONAL PRESENCE of God and Christ who both share the SAME SACRED NAME of Jehovah, - The Father by right of His identity as the Supreme Deity, - The Son of God BY INHERITANCE, being the "express image", the EXACT REPRODUCTION of, the truly LITERALLY begotten HOLY SON of the one and only true Almighty God. So, when God GIVES us HIS Spirit, He's GIVING us HIMSELF, not another 'person' as the trinitarians teach and not just another phase of manefestation as the oneness believers teach.

Therefore, we are baptized in reality in ONLY ONE NAME, not THREE names. For the NAME of the Father, which is Jehovah, is ALSO, by inheritance, the NAME of God's Son, and the Holy Spirit, which is the Spirit of Jehovah, represents the PERSONAL PRESENCE of the Father(Jehovah) and His Son(Jehovah, by inheritance). So, all the glory reverts back to God the Father who, as the Scripture states is "all in all." (1 Corinthians 15:28)

I do not want to base what I believe on our own human understanding.

I can see that because, with all due respect, no-one could figure out based on their own human understanding how Jesus could be an exact replica of God and yet there are not two Gods. If that doesn't make two Gods then I think your beliefs are as mysterious as the Trinity doctrine.

And when we take our own human understanding to its logical conclusion and separate it from what's revealed plainly in the Bible, we get, plainly speaking, cockamamie theological doctrines as is seen in the trithestic trinity.

But you have two identical but separate beings, the Father and the Son. They have the same 'name' but are two beings; one is God; they are identical so therefore you have two Gods.

Thus, we get a human answer to a question only Divinity is qualified to reveal. And thankfully, God DOES reveal it. Very beautifully. Very simply. Very harmoniously.

Jehovah. In Hebrew it is YHWH Yahweh. Both are either 'LORD' or 'GOD' in the KJV.

Oh, sorry, I didn't see this before, that you said YHWH is the same as Jehovah.

Jehovah is the name of the Father, and also the name of the Son, and the Spirit which is of both is ALSO named Jehovah. YHWH is the synonymous with Jehovah. Adonai is Lord, and Elohim is 'Gods' (plural).

In most English translations, YHWH or Jehovah is translated 'LORD' too, but is capitalized so that people know it's from the Hebrew YHWH, not Adonai.

Elohim is the word used in Genesis in the creation account. The Elohim (means: those who came from the sky) created the world, and is translated 'God' in the KJV.

What does the Bible say about who created the worlds? (see Hebrews 1)

God made them THROUGH His Son. How is that? Who is this 'Son' that WORLDS could be made THROUGH Him? He is the WORD of God. Through the WORD of God, the worlds were made. Jesus, The Son, the WORD, the express image of the Father's person, upholds the world with the word of His power. He inherited the name of God, Jehovah because He has been appointed heir of all things, and the Father annointed Him above all others, above Angels, and He (the Father) told Him (the Son) to sit at His (the Father's) right hand until He (the Father) makes His (the Father's) enemies His (the Son's) footstool.

It is through faith that we UNDERSTAND that the worlds were actually MADE by the very WORD of God, and understand that we would know that the things which we CAN see were made by Things which we cannot see. (Heb 11)

The 'Things' which we cannot see, NO man has ever seen. All we have seen is His Love. He sent His only begotten Son to show Himself to us, and show us that HE IS LOVE. We know that we know God, and that He dwells in us, because God has given us of His Spirit, and because we testify that The Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world. Whoever confesses THIS: "Jesus is the SON of God" has God dwelling in Him, by HIS Spirit. By this you will know if someone speaks by the Spirit of God, that if they tell you that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh, then they are of God, and no man has seen God at any time.

(1Jn4)

I hope that helped.

It helped me understand your beliefs much better, yes, thanks.

But it didn't help me understand how you are not believing in two Gods: God the Father and Jesus. Who both have the same name.

Helen/AITB

 

[ONENESS]

Originally posted by SolaScriptura in 2003:
If I am reading this right, we all believe that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are God. Even so, some say that there is One God consisting of 3 Persons (Trinity) while others say that there is One God consisting of 3 "manifestations" of One Person. Who is right? John answers this question in the passages where Jesus speaks of the coming of the Paraclete (Comforter) who is the Holy Spirit (Spirit of Truth).

John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; {17} even the Spirit of truth;"

John 14:26 "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."

John 15:26 "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me."

John 16:7 "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you."

Firstly, Jesus says "I will pray the Father." Who will he pray to? Another Person or another "manifestation" of Himself?

Secondly, He says "he shall give you ANOTHER Comforter." Who will give you this Comforter? The Father! But He calls the Father "HE" not "I." Also, He says "another Comforter" showing that the Comforter is ANOTHER PERSON.

Thirdly, the Comforter will be sent by the Father in Jesus' name. So, we have one Person (the Comforter) being sent BY another Person (the Father) IN the name of another Person (Jesus).

Fourthly, "he shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." NOT I will bring to your remembrance what I said, but He will bring to your remembrance what I said.

Fifthly, "He shall testify of me." NOT I shall testify of myself, but He shall testify of me - thus there are 2 Persons, the Testifier and the one being testified of.

Sixthly, "I go away: because if I don't go away, the Comforter will not come." If Jesus were the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost all in one Person, then he would be the Comforter, as well as the Son and Father -- then He would not have to go away for the Comforter to come, nor would the Comforter need to come because He would already be with them since He would be Jesus! But in that He says He must leave for the Comforter to come, He shows that He is another Person.

John 16:13 "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come"

LASTLY, the Spirit of Truth, the Comforter would not speak of Himself but of Jesus. IF Jesus were the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost all in one Person, then He would be the Comforter and would NOT be able to say "the Comforter will not speak of Himself but of me" for if they were the same Person then speaking of himself would also be speaking of me!

Add to all this 1 John 5:7, and the ABSOLUTE FACT OF THE TRINITY IS ESTABLISHED. The question was asked "Can a person be a Christian and not believe in the Trinity?" Well, a person cannot thoughtfully read the Gospel of John and not believe the Trinity! Not unless they are lying to themselves.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I do not believe one can have sound teaching in a church body that denies the Trinity, because any other teaching takes away from the sacrifice of the cross.

I must agree with Chemnitz. Why would one speak out of a cloud in approval of one's self? Why would one descend upon one's self? Why or how would/could a person be His own Father and own Son at the same time? Why would the Father introduce Himself into the world as His son??? How can one be begotten and unbegotten at the same time? How can one be unbegotten, yet begotten by himself, yet also proceeding from Himself, and yet eternally in His own bossom???????? Without the doctrine of the Trinity, God becomes the author of confusion, not to mention a liar. </font>[/QUOTE]

Firstly, Jesus says "I will pray the Father." Who will he pray to? Another Person or another "manifestation" of Himself?

Secondly, He says "he shall give you ANOTHER Comforter." Who will give you this Comforter? The Father! But He calls the Father "HE" not "I." Also, He says "another Comforter" showing that the Comforter is ANOTHER PERSON.

Lets just go ahead and end this.

If you stop at verse 16, sure you might think "Ok ANOTHER Comforter which means another person.

But keep reading. What does the very next verse say?

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Now check this out, Jesus just said the world cannot receive the comforter b/c it seeeth him (comforter) not, neither knoweth him (comforter) not. And he went on to tell the Apostles that "Ye know him; for He (the comforter) dwelleth with you, and shall be in you"

Now...Who is dwelling with them? Jesus! And who shall be in them? The eternal Spirit of Jesus or the Comforter.

But wait, dont stop there read the very next verse as well.

Jesus says "I will not leave your comfortless I will come to you (John 14:18).

Isn't that so cool, Jesus is not going to come in the form of a man, he is going to come in the for of a Spirit or the Holy Spirit if you please.

John 14:26 "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."

Now that makes since. What Name is The Holy Ghost going to come in? The Name of Jesus!

God bless

 

[MEE]

Well Brian, aren't you feeling 'Chipper' this evening!

Good post...great guy!

Carol

 

[Singer]

Have any of you seen that Monkey poster that says:

I THINK.............THEREFORE I AM CONFUSED !!!!

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by ONENESS:

LASTLY, the Spirit of Truth, the Comforter would not speak of Himself but of Jesus. IF Jesus were the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost all in one Person,

Did anyone say that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were one Person. I don't recall. The trinity is "three persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) in one God. There are three persons in one God. There is only one God. Now a question for you. Please define "person." In your statement above, when you refer to a member of the trinity as being a "person," what do you mean? What is a "person?"
DHK

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ONENESS:

LASTLY, the Spirit of Truth, the Comforter would not speak of Himself but of Jesus. IF Jesus were the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost all in one Person,

Did anyone say that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were one Person. I don't recall. The trinity is "three persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) in one God. There are three persons in one God. There is only one God. Now a question for you. Please define "person." In your statement above, when you refer to a member of the trinity as being a "person," what do you mean? What is a "person?"
DHK </font>

DHK, are you directing your question to ONENESS or SolaScriptura?

BTW, I would like to know what a 'person' is, according to the Trinity doctrine. I'm still trying figure out how it takes three persons to make up one god. But,........that depends how the doctrine of the Trinity explains what a 'person' is, I suppose.

MEE