The importance of the doctrine of the Trinity

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by neal4christ:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> The Elohim (means: those who came from the sky) created the world

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Just wondering, where did you get this definition?

Neal </font>[/QUOTE]You know, I don't remember.

Is that not right?

(AND btw, I didn't think anything you said was telling me I was retarded, I just realized that you were arguing with Bob's statement, not the Bible.)

God Bless </font>[/QUOTE]I think you got that from that clonaide Guy.

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ONENESS:

LASTLY, the Spirit of Truth, the Comforter would not speak of Himself but of Jesus. IF Jesus were the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost all in one Person,

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Did anyone say that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were one Person. I don't recall. The trinity is "three persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) in one God. There are three persons in one God. There is only one God. Now a question for you. Please define "person." In your statement above, when you refer to a member of the trinity as being a "person," what do you mean? What is a "person?"
DHK </font>

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Hey DHK, that was not my post.

God bless

You know what Brian,

You are probably right!

A few months back someone put up the link for the Raeleans, and I went and looked at it.

Strange people.

They aren't the only ones who think that Elohim means that.

The guy who wrote the book 'The 12th Planet' thinks that too.

God Bless

I once believed in the Oneness doctrine. Yet I found some flaws in the teaching that has never been explained even to this day. I have read some of the explanations but they don't make sense.

I have studied the doctrine of the Trinity too AM. The Bible does not teach this doctrine. Never has and never will. The post apostolic fathers did not teach it or believe it. It came into existence 325 a.d.

Polycarp who was a follower of the Apostle John taught that Jesus was created. That he existed in the beginning of this world with God but he did not exist from eternity. That would be an impossibility based on the fact that a son is always created. Jesus was deity because God the FAther made him so. He believed the Holy Spirit proceeded from the Father and Son.

These Post Apostolic Fathers taught that God the Father or Jehovah is spirit only. He can take on the appearance of man called a Theophany. Jesus the Son of God is the only person in the Godhead. The Scriptures back this up. They also taught that the Holy Spirit is the emanated spirit of the FAther sent through the son.
Nothing John wrote proves a person. Another comforter did not indicate another person in the Godhead. The reason Jesus called the Holy SPirit another comforter is because the Apostles were used to him being there in the flesh with them.
He was their comforter then and there. When he ascended he sent back the poured out and emanated spirit of Jehovah. The reason Jesus called this gift a he is because God the father is masculine and his poured out spirit would be masculine.

The doctrine of the Trinity is a catholic doctrine that a lot of Protestants have followed without questioning it.

When individuals talk about 1 John 5 they are talking about a scripture that did not exist in the original manuscripts. It was added by the Catholic church to propogate a doctrine that did not exist.

The story of the Baptism of Jesus does not prove three persons. A voice, a person Jesus, and a bird. Sure shows me three persons. Not! This would show more three manifestations then persons.

The true idea behind why this doctrine was created is because the Roman people believed in
multi deities. Gods who procreated other Gods. The church was afraid if what the post Apostolic Fathers taught was taught then the Romans would not come to Christianity.

This is just like water Baptism. Those who adhere to the Trinitarian doctrine baptizes using the words in the name of the FAther, the Son and the Holy Ghost but that is not what Matthew 28:19 tell us to do. Jesus said to Baptize them in the name, singular. No where did Jesus say to use that formula. The Apostles baptized in the name of Jesus but Trinitarians ignore this. BAptism is not just a symbol of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus but it is a symbol of our marriage to the Son. What does a wife do when she marries. She takes her husbands name. This when we are baptized in Jesus' name is what we do. Using the words in Matthew 28 does not put someone in the name because no name has been called. Did not the Bible say salvation is in that name. Is it also not written that we are buried in Baptism in Jesus.

As I have written before. A full person in the Godhead who is full God would not have to do things in the power of another member of the Godhead as Jesus did. The Bible makes it very clear that Jesus was full of the Holy GHost.
If Jesus was co-equal then why did he have to pray? He would have done all miracles in his own power and he would not have prayed to the FAther.

In John when Jesus speaks of the other comforter he makes the comment that he would not leave them comfortless that he would come to them. Not in flesh but inside them in spirit. The Holy Ghost being a person does not make sense. A person cannot reside inside people. A person cannot be poured out. This is what Oneness was talking about. Three persons and three spirits. Does not the Bible speak about the spirit of Christ?

Saying it is heresy and blasphemy to deny the Trinity is ludicrous. Whose heresy? God's. I don't think so but Rome's. Not believing in the Trinity is not blaspheming God.

I believe there will be thousands of people when they reach Heaven that will be shocked when they don't see three persons. In reality what the original doctrine was teaching was Tritheism. Three Gods in one Deity.

I once believed in the Oneness doctrine. Yet I found some flaws in the teaching that has never been explained even to this day. I have read some of the explanations but they don't make sense.

I have studied the doctrine of the Trinity too AM. The Bible does not teach this doctrine. Never has and never will. The post apostolic fathers did not teach it or believe it. It came into existence 325 a.d.

Polycarp who was a follower of the Apostle John taught that Jesus was created. That he existed in the beginning of this world with God but he did not exist from eternity. That would be an impossibility based on the fact that a son is always created. Jesus was deity because God the FAther made him so. He believed the Holy Spirit proceeded from the Father and Son.

These Post Apostolic Fathers taught that God the Father or Jehovah is spirit only. He can take on the appearance of man called a Theophany. Jesus the Son of God is the only person in the Godhead. The Scriptures back this up. They also taught that the Holy Spirit is the emanated spirit of the FAther sent through the son.
Nothing John wrote proves a person. Another comforter did not indicate another person in the Godhead. The reason Jesus called the Holy SPirit another comforter is because the Apostles were used to him being there in the flesh with them.
He was their comforter then and there. When he ascended he sent back the poured out and emanated spirit of Jehovah. The reason Jesus called this gift a he is because God the father is masculine and his poured out spirit would be masculine.

The doctrine of the Trinity is a catholic doctrine that a lot of Protestants have followed without questioning it.

When individuals talk about 1 John 5 they are talking about a scripture that did not exist in the original manuscripts. It was added by the Catholic church to propogate a doctrine that did not exist.

The story of the Baptism of Jesus does not prove three persons. A voice, a person Jesus, and a bird. Sure shows me three persons. Not! This would show more three manifestations then persons.

The true idea behind why this doctrine was created is because the Roman people believed in
multi deities. Gods who procreated other Gods. The church was afraid if what the post Apostolic Fathers taught was taught then the Romans would not come to Christianity.

This is just like water Baptism. Those who adhere to the Trinitarian doctrine baptizes using the words in the name of the FAther, the Son and the Holy Ghost but that is not what Matthew 28:19 tell us to do. Jesus said to Baptize them in the name, singular. No where did Jesus say to use that formula. The Apostles baptized in the name of Jesus but Trinitarians ignore this. BAptism is not just a symbol of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus but it is a symbol of our marriage to the Son. What does a wife do when she marries. She takes her husbands name. This when we are baptized in Jesus' name is what we do. Using the words in Matthew 28 does not put someone in the name because no name has been called. Did not the Bible say salvation is in that name. Is it also not written that we are buried in Baptism in Jesus.

As I have written before. A full person in the Godhead who is full God would not have to do things in the power of another member of the Godhead as Jesus did. The Bible makes it very clear that Jesus was full of the Holy GHost.
If Jesus was co-equal then why did he have to pray? He would have done all miracles in his own power and he would not have prayed to the FAther.

In John when Jesus speaks of the other comforter he makes the comment that he would not leave them comfortless that he would come to them. Not in flesh but inside them in spirit. The Holy Ghost being a person does not make sense. A person cannot reside inside people. A person cannot be poured out. This is what Oneness was talking about. Three persons and three spirits. Does not the Bible speak about the spirit of Christ?

Saying it is heresy and blasphemy to deny the Trinity is ludicrous. Whose heresy? God's. I don't think so but Rome's. Not believing in the Trinity is not blaspheming God.

I believe there will be thousands of people when they reach Heaven that will be shocked when they don't see three persons. In reality what the original doctrine was teaching was Tritheism. Three Gods in one Deity.

NEAL said --

Let's first get the facts straight. Here is really what Bob posted:

And Paul states that Timothy was saved even before becoming a Christian.

This is a false statement. Paul did not state that. Bob and you state that, not Paul.

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The statement in 2Tim 3 is as follows

"you have KNOWN the sacred writngs (OT) which are able to make you wise unto salvation".

Notice Paul did not say that after a few thousand years "the sacred writings BECAME able to make you wise unto salvation".

Furthermore - the fact that the ONE GOSPEL of all ages (Gal 1:6-11) the ONE that was ALSO preached to Abraham (Gal 3:7) JUST as to US also Heb 4:1 -- happens to be through Faith in Christ in ALL ages.

So OT saints "were PLEASING to God" and found "acceptance with God" Heb 11:1-9 - even to the point of being taken to heaven without dying (Elijah, Enoch) - "Saved" by the ONE Gospel - through faith in Christ (Messiah).


In Christ,

Bob

P.S (Your "Argue till the cows come home" phrase reminds me of some Church of Christ debates I had once).

BTW - the way that you show the Trinity from scripture is by identifying what scripture tells you are "God ALONE" attributes and then seeing that they are all applied to Christ.

In Christ,

Bob

Originally posted by BobRyan:
BTW - the way that you show the Trinity from scripture is by identifying what scripture tells you are "God ALONE" attributes and then seeing that they are all applied to Christ.

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...and to the Holy Spirit

Helen/AITB

Originally posted by hrhema:
Never has and never will. The post apostolic fathers did not teach it or believe it. It came into existence 325 a.d.

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This page says otherwise:

Earliest Christians taught the Trinity

Helen/AITB

Bob,

I still stand by what I said. I agree that Paul did not say that the Scriptures became able. However, Paul never made the statement you attribute to him, plain and simple. This is your inference, not Paul's statement. Paul says that the Scriptures gave Timothy wisdom for salvation in Christ Jesus. Timothy did not live in OT times, he was in NT times after Christ had already been revealed. So he even had a leg up on the OT saints because he had a more complete view of the picture.

Neal

Yes the Holy Spirit also has some of the "God Alone" attributes associated - However the primary way that you show that the Holy Spirit "IS God" is that the Bible comes right out and says it.

It is easier to make the Case for the Holy Spirit being called "God".

With Christ you have to show the "God Alone Attributes" and then rely on the two places in John 1:1 and John 20:28 and the fact that Jesus calls Himself the "I AM" of the OT.

In Christ,

Bob

Neal --
I still stand by what I said. I agree that Paul did not say that the Scriptures became able. However, Paul never made the statement you attribute to him

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When Paul says "The Sacred Writings ARE ABLE to make you WISE unto Salvation" - the only way to Get that to mean "the Holy Scriptures were NOT ABLE to make you wise unto Salvation until after the cross" - is to make your case that "There is NO salvation before the cross".

And my previous post showed that to be impossible.

Once that is clear - then the statement of PAUL speaking of Timothy as a child being raised as a Jew by His grandmother BEFORE meeting Paul AND pointing out that the scriptures "back then" were in fact ABLE to make him wise unto salvation - makes the point I stated - perfectly.

NEAL said --
This is your inference, not Paul's statement. Paul says that the Scriptures gave Timothy wisdom for salvation in Christ Jesus. Timothy did not live in OT times, he was in NT times after Christ had already been revealed. So he even had a leg up on the OT saints because he had a more complete view of the picture.

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"OT saints" by definition shows salvation in the OT.

The point Paul is making is that BEFORE comig to Christ, BEFORE meeting Paul - even from his youth being raised as a faithful Jew by Lois and Eunice
-- even then the scriptures were able to make him wise unto salvation - and the OT saints -- were reading those SAME scriptures to "become Saints".

In Christ,

Bob

Originally posted by ONENESS:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ONENESS:

LASTLY, the Spirit of Truth, the Comforter would not speak of Himself but of Jesus. IF Jesus were the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost all in one Person,

Click to expand...

Did anyone say that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were one Person. I don't recall. The trinity is "three persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) in one God. There are three persons in one God. There is only one God. Now a question for you. Please define "person." In your statement above, when you refer to a member of the trinity as being a "person," what do you mean? What is a "person?"
DHK </font>

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Hey DHK, that was not my post.

God bless </font>[/QUOTE]Sorry abut that. But I would still like to know, either from you or MEE, what definition you give to the word "person" when discussiong the trinity.
DHK

When Paul says "The Sacred Writings ARE ABLE to make you WISE unto Salvation" - the only way to Get that to mean "the Holy Scriptures were NOT ABLE to make you wise unto Salvation until after the cross" - is to make your case that "There is NO salvation before the cross".

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Bob, you are making this much bigger than what I want. I am simply pointing out that Paul did not say the statement you have attributed to him. Can you show any translation or from the Greek the statement you have attributed to Paul?

I assert no such thing as you imply in your previous post. There was salvation before the cross. I am not making this an OT vs. NT argument. I am talking about Timothy, individually. And to use your translation, I believe,:

"And that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus." 2 Timothy 3:15, NASB

Now, are you telling me that Timothy did not become **[EDITED from "was not"]** a Christian when he came to salvation? I think it is clear that it was not his wisdow that saved him, but his faith which was in Christ Jesus. His wisdow gained from the sacred writings led him to Christ. I believe that is very definition of a Christian, someone who has faith in Christ.

Once that is clear - then the statement of PAUL speaking of Timothy as a child being raised as a Jew by His grandmother BEFORE meeting Paul AND pointing out that the scriptures "back then" were in fact ABLE to make him wise unto salvation - makes the point I stated - perfectly.

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Wow, perfectly! Hmmm... You forgot the little phrase after salvation, "through faith which is in Christ Jesus."

"OT saints" by definition shows salvation in the OT.

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I'm not stupid and I am not arguing about salvation in the OT. I believe in salvation in the OT.**[EDIT: added sentence]** I am talking about Timothy individually, you are trying to make it into a far bigger issue.

even then the scriptures were able to make him wise unto salvation - and the OT saints -- were reading those SAME scriptures to "become Saints".

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So do you say that Jews now don't need faith in Christ? Even after Christ has been revealed?

Neal

[ March 21, 2003, 11:09 PM: Message edited by: neal4christ ]

Originally posted by DHK:

But I would still like to know, either from you or MEE, what definition you give to the word "person" when discussiong the trinity.
DHK [/QB]

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DHK, that was my question to you, on page four.

You first!

MEE

Neal --
Now, are you telling me that Timothy was not a Christian when he came to salvation? I think it is clear that it was not his wisdow that saved him, but his faith which was in Christ Jesus. His wisdow gained from the sacred writings led him to Christ. I believe that is very definition of a Christian, someone who has faith in Christ.

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This is the area of problem.

There is only "ONE Gospel" Gal 1:6-11.

Faith in the Christ Is the ONLY Gospel that there ever was.

Gal 3:7 Abrahm had that ONE Gospel preached to him.

John 8:58 Christ claims that Abraham SAW the days of Christ. His FAITH was in Christ BEFORE the Cross.

"The Gospel was preached to US just as it was to THEM " Heb 4:1

Your model above - only works if you make up a "not the Gospel" kind of Gospel where faith in the Messiah (Christ) was not part of that Gospel.

Recall that Christ is merely the Greek term for Messiah.

You seek to change the 2Tim 3 statement about Timothy being raised as a Jew reading the OT Scriptures that were able to make him wise unto salvation through faith in the Messiah - into something that means - they only worked after the cross and in the case After hearing about the Cross as well.

That is a restriction that the text does not impose.

It works asis.

In Christ,

Bob

Bob,

I know you intend well, but I am aware what the term Christ means.

You ignore the rest of my post. Are the Jews not responsible for faith in Jesus Christ now? Can they have salvation just by faith in a Messiah?

Neal

Also, you bring up Abraham. Timothy lived AFTER Christ had come. Was he not now responsible for more now that THE Messiah had come?

Neal

Originally posted by MEE:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DHK:

But I would still like to know, either from you or MEE, what definition you give to the word "person" when discussiong the trinity.
DHK

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DHK, that was my question to you, on page four.

You first!

MEE [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]What are the qualities and attributes of being a person?
1. A person exists and has identity.
2. A person is aware of his own existence and identity.
A. This precludes the condition of being unconscious.
3. A self aware person will use such a statement as "I am", "me", "mine", etc.
4. A person can recognize the existence of other persons.
. This is true provided there were other persons around him or her.
A. Such recognition would include the use of such statements as "you are", "you", "yours", etc.
5. A person possesses a will.
. A will is the capability of conscious choice, decision, intention, desire, and or purpose.
6. A single person cannot have two separate and distinct wills at the same time on the exact same subject.
. Regarding the exact same subject, a person can desire/will one thing at one moment and another at a different moment.
A. Separate and simultaneous wills imply separate and simultaneous persons.
7. A person has the ability to communicate -- under normal conditions.
8. Persons do not need to have bodies.
. God the Father possesses personhood without a body, as do the angels.
A. Biblically speaking, upon death we are "absent from the body and home with the Lord" (2 Cor. 5:8).
God qualifies as having personhood in that He exists, is self aware, has identity, uses terms such as "Me", "I AM", "My", and possesses a will.
The question now becomes whether or not there are more than one "persons" in the Godhead


CARM

Christ declared to Jews before the cross "your sins are forgiven go and sin no more".

Even the Disciples did not understand the mission of Christ until after the cross - yet they were still saved.

In Romans 2:13-16 we are told about those who have no scripture at all - who come under the promise of the New Covenant without understanding it all in the sense of knowing God's Word - and yet - they too "are saved".

Christ is "The Way the Truth and the Life" - to reject truth is to reject Christ. But that does not mean that all mankind has had the opportunity to accept Christ much less know the story.

We are not saved by "a better story".

The Jews that were "saints" before the cross - did not "Become lost at the cross" waiting for "a better story".

In Christ,

Bob