Church of Christ

Briguy:
I posted one.(IPet.3:21) Instead of using the evidence provided by the inspired word you used your " reasoning". Human reasoning may be right, it may be wrong, but the word is always right.
The head that is spinning is not found at the congregation where I attend. By the way, posting a scripture does not provide all that is given on a subject. It is a poor way to determine the truth about anything, spiritual or not. That is like reading one article to the constitution and believing you know all of it. If one conducts a discussion on this basis, he is not being rational. The Psalmist said in Psalms 119:160, " The sum total of thy words is truth."
I guess I should ask do you want to be irrational about Biblical truth or rational? Have a good day. (Prov. 13:16).
Frank

3:21: The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

We discussed this already. You have scripture that implies Baptism is in the salvation process I and others have scripture that describes the salvation process and leaves baptism out. We come at this verse with different core beliefs and so interpret it differently. I say the key is the good concience toward God. The word "figure" is used here which shows right off the bat we are talking "symbolically" or "figuretively"(sp?). Baptism,in that day was a clear show of the sincereity of the conversion. Can you convert with sincereity, without Baptism? I say YES, Can I get an AMEN?

In Love and Truth,
Brian

Can you convert with sincereity, without Baptism? I say YES, Can I get an AMEN?

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Can you sincerely believe yourself to be a follower of God without being one? Yes.

Not all to who say to Jesus Lord, Lord will enter the Kingdom of heaven. Only those who do the will go God will enter the kingdom of heaven.

Those who say that they know Jesus, but don't follow God's commands is a liar.

Frank said:

Tyndale:
I affirm the proposition that water baptismn is essential for the salvation of the sinner. I have provided the scriptures for this posiiton, If you wish to deny it, then, refute my affirmative.

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If the subject for baptism is not regenerated by the Holy Ghost before he is baptized... He goes in a dry devil and comes out a wet one! If water has any regenerating properties then anyone who ever had a bath is saved or the water translated into different water being tap, ocean, river, creek, or canal water?... Lets quit beating around the bush does the created water save or he who created the water?... Brother Glen

[ May 09, 2002, 06:59 PM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]

Tuor said:

I guess I should have asked, can God's children live a life not in obedience to God.

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Well lets see Israel were his children and how many times did they turn their back on him?... To many to count!... Did he cast his children away that he died for? If you even believe he could you don't understand the subject of grace... Brother Glen

Briguy:
Yes, we discussed it. I used scripture to prove the proposition. You tried to use your opinion to make the scriptues go away. You asked for a verse by verse discussion.Consider the following:
1. The Baptism commanded by Christ was to last until the end of the world and has HUMAN ADMINISTRATORS. Mat. 28:18-20. Holy Spirit baptism did not!( I Cor.13:8-13).
2.Baptism in the New Testament was a washing of water by the word.( Eph. 5:26). Holy Spirit baptism is not a washing but fell on those baptized. The scriptural evidence that washing of refers to the Holy Spirit is inaccurate.Thayer, 382, Arndt,481. Washing of water by the word is a reference to water baptism.
3.Water Baptism "doth also now save us."( I Peter 3:20,21. Baptizo, baptisma means to immerse to plung to overwhelm.(Strong's Concordance,Vine's New Testament Words,Thayer,Arndt and Gingrich).Peter commanded water baptism in Acts 10:48, Acts 2:38. If it is not water baptism in these verses,then the Holy Spirit directed Peter to teach an error and to contradict the examples in the New Testament.
4.Water Baptism is required when Jesus is preached, not Holy Spirt baptism.( Acts 8:38).
5.Water Baptism puts one in contact with the blood of Christ.( Rev. 1:5, Eph 5:26, Acts 22:16). The blood of Christ is required to redeem man form sin.(I Peter 1:18,19). The washing that puts one in contact with the blood is water baptism.
6. Water Baptism is essential to partake of the death buiral and resurrection of Christ.( I Pet. 3:21, Col. 2:12,Romans 6:3-5).
7.Water Baptism is the validating of the righteousness of God.( Mat. 3:14,15, Lk. 7:28,29). If Jesus was greater than John, the importance of water baptism should be also.( Mk. 16:16). Failure to be baptized rejects the justification and righteousness of God.( Lk. 7:30). Jesus Obeyed validating the righteousness of God.(Mat. 3:14,15). Can men today do any less than palcing their obedience and trust in Christ's commandment.( Mk. 16:16).
8. Water Baptism Prepares a people for the Lord's Kingdom.(Lk. 1:17,JN. 3:3-5). If water baptism for unto the remission is not essential, then being prepared and unprepared are the same. Yet, Lk. 1:17 says the prepared people were baptized.
9. Water Baptism puts one IN Christ where salvation is located.(Gal. 3:26,27, II Tim. 2:10,Acts 2:38,47).
10.There is one baptism.( Eph. 4:5). Holy Spirt baptism happened twice in the Bible. ( Acts 2,10).
The baptism that saves is to continue to the end of the world.( Mat. 28:18-20).
11. Water Baptism is a commandment to be obeyed.( Hebrews 5:8,9, Acts 10:48). Holy Spirit Baptism was a promise to be received.(Jn.14:26;15:26;16:13,Lk. 24:49,Acts 2:1-4).
12.Water Baptism was performed by humans.(Mat. 28:19,Acts 8:38;22:16;8:12,13).JESUS CHRIST WAS THE ONLY ONE WHO COULD BAPTIZE WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT.(Mat. 3:11).
13.There were two baptisms in Acts 8:12,15,16). One saves us.(Eph.4:5). It is water Baptism. (Acts 8:12,38). The water baptism of verse 12 put the believers in the Kingdom.(Jn.3:3-5).
14.Water baptism is for unto the obtaining of the remission of sins.(Acts 2:38,Acts 10:48,I Peter 3:21,Acts 8:12;18:8,Gal.3:26,27.Col.2:12).
Sources:
1 Bible
2.Arndt,W.and Gingrich,F.W. A Greek- English Lexicon of the New Testamentand Other Christian Literature.
3.Thayer,J.H. A Greek English Lexicon of the ew Testament.
4.Vine,W.E. Vine's amplified Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words.
5.Stong,James. Strong;s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible.
Frank

Did he cast his children away that he died for? If you even believe he could you don't understand the subject of grace... Brother Glen

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So are you trying to say that everyone on earth is going to heaven?

I am happy to hear that Frank did admit that he does attend a Church(although it took way to many questions to get the answer)I am worried that he is the Pastor, not because he is not a Christian but because since he is the Pastor there is a cell of like thinkers. I am still not certain if he Preaches at the local Church of Christ or not(if anyone is sure let me know)why he is ashamed to admit being part of the group is beyond me.
But just in case he is CoC and is simply stateing their false teaching that they are the only true Church, let me remind him that although they claim that, they are still members together with other CoC Churches therefore they are a denomination just like the rest of us. As a Baptist and a SBC member I am not always pleased with my denomination but I resent the claim of CoC Pastors that we are unbiblical. You have all heard the old joke about St Peter telling new arrivals to Heaven to be quiet because the Baptists think they are the only ones here. I think it better applies to the CoC. This will be my last post on this(unless)but in closing let me apologize to any well meaning CoC member, I don't mean any harm but in my view some of the teachings of your group are in error.

Tuor I didn't say that... What did Jesus mean when he told some of those Jews you're of your Father the devil and his works ye will do! Do I believe in universalism... No way I believe in election... All Gods children will be saved... Brother Glen

Brother Glen, Thanks for your points. I agree with you and am confused why others just don't see that we enter into baptism already washed by the blood. If we are not washed by the blood then we have no business being baptized. I am sorry that Christians, good sound ones like Nils(Tuor), think that I am disobidient because I was never believer Baptized. I will pray about it but as of this moment I do not feel like less of a believer because I don't see it as a command. Does that make sense? If I don't see the Bible teaching it to be obeying Jesus then I really am not disobeying. I know I know then someone could say that about anything in the Bible and not be accountable for any of their actions. There are many absolutes in the Bible but to me baptism is not one of them. (One time a Lutheran pastor told me there were no absolutes in the Bible - but that is another thread)

In Christ alone,
Brian

BPM:
I have no clue as to why you are concerned about me personally. I have stated in several posts that I am a Christian and a member of the church of Christ. I preach for a congregtion in Lagrange, GA. I sense your frustration is because I use scriptures to answer the question(s), I guess you do not like that approach.
My concern is to teach the truth. I have defended the Biblical position with the inspired writings. If I have taught error, you should easily be able, with the totality of the evidence, PROVE IT.(I Thes.5:21). However, you have concerned yourself with the messenger instead of the message.If you cannot refute the truth,and YOU cannot, you try to prejudice people against the messenger. This is a typical denominationalist tactic. It is almost funny!
Furthermore, you have made UNSUBSTANTIATED ASSERTIONS ABOUT ME AND THE CHURCH. I am not like you or any other ist or ism. This is obvious to anyone who has followed this discussion. You could not prove your assertion if your life depended on it.
My faith is IN Christ and the New Testament.( Hebs. 11:6, Gal. 3:26). I practice and teach all that has been commanded by the authority of Jesus Christ.( Mat. 28:18-20, COl. 3:17). This makes me a Christian, no more no less.
I have not called you anything that you do not admit to being religiously. I simply desire the same. I want to be a Christian.
I do not follow any creed book other than the Bible. I have no articles of faith other than the Bible. I am not a member of any association, convention. I am a part of the blood bought Church of the New Testament.(Acts 20:28). I want to live and die this way.( Mat. 7:13,14, Jn.14:6, Rev.2:10). Have a good day.
Frank

Briguy:
You have a verse by verse discussion. I trust you will examine and ,WITH SCRIPTURES, discuss the subject as you requested. Have a good day.
Frank

What did Jesus mean when he told some of those Jews you're of your Father the devil and his works ye will do! Do I believe in universalism... No way I believe in election... All Gods children will be saved... Brother Glen

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So what you are saying is that our destiny is sealed one way or the other. If baptism is required, then God's children will do it and others might not?

If this is so, then you really aren't dealing with the issue of baptism, you are dealing with the issue of predestination.

If you are saying that it isn't important because the elect are sealed with or without baptism or any other actions, then I'd ask how do you know who are the elect?

Brian,

All of our actions and inactions are fruits of the heart. If the fruits aren't what they should be, then we should take steps to change that. Of course this is based on the Biblical principal that our actions are a reflection of our state of heart.

[ May 10, 2002, 10:11 AM: Message edited by: Tuor ]

Nils, the question is if I am making an honest mistake is that an error on my part or am I disobeying? (showing inactions) I just cannot see it as disobeying when I see the Bible saying something different about Baptism. I know you are praying for me - Thanks!!

Frank, your post at the top of the page was filled with your opinion and your interpretation of scripture. I can sight a verse and explain it with another verse if you want, actually I won't because I think our discussion is done. Thank you for your hard work on the posts, I do believe you are sincere with your belief and maybe even you care about others and that is why you have been persistant, Prideful at times , but persistant.
Hope to discuss other topics with you in the days ahead!

In love and truth,
Brian

Frank,
Your post interests me, as I also am concerned about you.

"I have no clue as to why you are concerned about me personally."
---Because as others have stated you are teaching error.

"I have stated in several posts that I am a Christian and a member of the church of Christ. I preach for a congregtion in Lagrange, GA....Furthermore, you have made UNSUBSTANTIATED ASSERTIONS ABOUT ME AND THE CHURCH. I am not like you or any other ist or ism."
---That is the whole issue Frank. The Church of Christ is another ism, another cult teaching serious error.

"My faith is IN Christ and the New Testament.( Hebs. 11:6, Gal. 3:26)."
---Your faith is misplaced. It is in your baptism. The Bible clearly teaches that a man is saved by faith. Consider Eph.2:8,9
Eph.2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
---There is no baptism in these verses because baptism is a work. It is something that man does. We are saved by faith, not by baptism. When a believer enters into Heaven what a shame it would be to Christ, after all that He has to done for to have a bunch of arrogant people boasting that they got there by their baptism. They paid a part in salvation. They'll give Jesus a pat on the back and thank themselves too, because of the work (baptism) that they did. No way! Salvation is all of grace. Jesus paid it all. All to Him I owe. Sin had left had a crimson stain. He washed it white as snow (not baptism).

Romans 4:1-8
4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
---How can you escape these verses and say that salvation is not by faith alone, without baptism?
Abraham was justified by faith, when he believed (verse 3), not when he did any of his works, or by his works. These Scriptures make that clear. Baptism is a work. Verse 4 "To him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. You will receive reward in Heaven for obeying Christ in baptism, after salvation. It is done out of debt or obligation. There is no grace that God gives in baptism.
Verse 5 makes this quite clear: "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." If I do no works (no baptism) I am justified on the basis of my faith. My faith is counted for righteousness. "Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin."

"I practice and teach all that has been commanded by the authority of Jesus Christ.( Mat. 28:18-20, COl. 3:17). This makes me a Christian, no more no less."
---No that's not what makes a Christian. Being born again by the Spirit of God makes a Christian. And if you think that "water" in that passage means baptism you are mistaken and are not born again. Because again you are counting on your baptism to bring you into God's family. You are relying on your good works. Our good works are as filthy works and can only damn us to hell.

"I have not called you anything that you do not admit to being religiously. I simply desire the same. I want to be a Christian."
If you want to be a Christian come to Christ by faith without works:
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

"I do not follow any creed book other than the Bible. I have no articles of faith other than the Bible."
---Every cult says the same thing. I could give you a number of quotes. Every church has a statement of faith which they derive from the Bible. We could derive your statement of faith, at least in part, just from what you have posted on this thread. And it is not all in the Bible. You do have a creed, and you do have your own articles of faith, whether or not you write them down on a piece of paper.
DHK

Thank you DHK I agree totally with your post.

Frank let me add that I do resent the remark about me not wanting to answer with scripture, I trust the scriptures like everyone else should.
My question to you was what Church do you attend? and any reasonable person can surely answer that without any scripture. I wonder if in your town you met a stranger and they asked where you went to church if you would tell them or would you act like you have here, I feel confident that you will tell them what the name of the Church is.
Mike

Christianty has always had to deal with differences in opinion. The problem doesn't come in the disagrement itself, the problem comes down to how do we deal with the disagreement.

Do we continue to meet and allow for differences and let a person deal with God by one's self, or do we divide and only associate with those who agree with our point of view.

We are commanded not to have dealings with people who live lives of sin, we are not commanded to excommunicate those who disagree with us on debatable matters. We display Christ in the times of trouble, not the good times.

DHK:
I will deal with your post item by item.
1.Eph.2:8,9 requires two to be saved.
ERROR 1. IT IS FALSE DOCTRINE TO TEACH ANYTHING ONLY SAVES. Grace is with faith so she is not alone. When I have been with someone else I was not alone. Grace does not rule out law. Titus 2:11,12 for the grace of God tht bringeth salvation hath appeared unto all men, teaching us that denying ungodliness and worldly lust we should live soberly righteously in this present world. We are under the Law to Christ. He set the conditions for salvation.(ICor. 9:21,Mat.28:18-20,Mk.16:16,Lk. 13:3 Mat.10:32, Jn. 8:24). Moreover, Eph.2:8,9 does not say anything about repentance,belief or confession are they excluded too? Is it your position that because Eph. 2:8,9 does not say repentance is necessary you are excluding it too?
ERROR 2- FAILURE TO UNDERSTAND WORKS IN THE BIBLE.
Moreover there various types of work mentioned in the Bible.Please study the following:
1. Works of Righteosuness. Titus 3:5.
2. Works of the Old Law.( Gal.3:11;2:16;5:4).
3. Meritorius works. (Eph.2:8,9).
4. Working Faith.( James 2:21,24,Roms. 16:26,Hebs; 11:6).
ERROR 3. FAILURE TO UNDERSTAND THAT BELIEF IS A WORK OF GOD WE MUST DO.
In John 6:28,29, the Bible says, "Then said they unto him, WHAT MUST WE DO to WORK THE WORKS OF God? JESUS answered, and said unto them, This is the WORK of God that YE believe on him whom he hath sent.
ERROR FOUR. FAILURE TO UNDERSTAND THAT BILBICAL FAITH ALWAYS WORKS. a faith that does not work is ALWAYS A DEAD FAITH.( James 2:26, Hebs.11:6).
Abraham had a working faith that is what belief is. It is Pisteu in the Greek meaning the action of faith. In Romans 4 not one time does it say, as you have asserted by faith only.If you will read Hebrews 11:8,9,10,17 Abraham had a working faith as he obeyed vs. 8. sojourned vs.9. looked vs.10. offered Isaac vs. 17. He did not merit what God had given him but he manifested his faith by his works. (James 2:24).In Gal. 3:26-29, the Bible says,For we are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. For their is neither Jew nor Greek neither bond nor free neither male nor female: ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's THEN ARE YE ABRAHAM'S SEED AND HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE PROMISE.
ERROR 5 FAILURE TO CONSIDER THE TOTALITY OF THE EVIDENCE.
The Bible teaches that Baptism is for unto the remission of sins.( Acts 2:38, IPet. 3:21, Acts 8:38, Acts 8:12, Acts 22:16, Eph. 5:26, Rev.1:5, Col 2:12,Romans 6:4,5, Acts 18:8,Gal. 3:26,27, Jn. 3:3-5, Titus 3:5). I have previously provide the scholarship about this issue. On Acts 2:38 alone, here are a few Baptist scholars that agree with this position. Ray Summers, Northern Baptist Theological Seminary, Earl Blackburn, Reformed Baptist, Editor of Reformed Baptist Publications, Charles B,Williams, Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. Perhaps you should get together with them and get on the same sheet of music. Maybe, the Greek scholars have a different Spirit in them than you.
ERROR 6.UNSUBSTANTIATED ASSERTIONS.
Romans 4 does not make it clear that baptism is a work. It is not addressed in the passages you posted.
ERROR 7.POOR SCHOLARSHIP.
You have failed to consult the totality of evidence.I previously posted a 14 item verse for verse exegesis for baptism. It confirms that water Baptism is for unto the remission of sins. This post was directed to Briguy's request FOR A VERSE BY VERSE DISCUSSION ON THIS ISSUE. It is posted on page 8 in this thread. If you are interested you may want to study it for a more complete exegesis of Water Baptism for unto the remission of sins. Lastly, you assert things about the church and myself ALONG WITH YOUR POSITON ON BAPTISM THAT HAVE NOT BEEN PROVEN. YOU make generalizations and fail to support them with the truth of the Bible. You do not deal with the arguememnts made from scripture but simply have tried to, when you do use scripture,array them against one another instead of harmonizing them. It is the height of hypocrisy to say I am a part of an ist or ism. It is even less honorable to call people names they reject. This is how you show concern and compassion for people. I guess it is the spirit at it again.
I am still affirming I am a Christian and and a part of the church of the New Testament the church that belongs to Christ. And you are a baptist of which you cannot read in the New Testament. Have a nice day
Frank

The Biguy said:

Nils, the question is if I am making an honest mistake is that an error on my part or am I disobeying? (showing inactions) I just cannot see it as disobeying when I see the Bible saying something different about Baptism.

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You are absolutely right it does say something different about baptism and when you understand your role in obedience and walk with God you will know. Then and only then should you join a church and submit to the example of baptism that John The Baptist and Jesus Christ set up for his blood bought children to follow. It is the empty tomb that bought your Salvation not the liquid grave... God bless you Brian... Brother Glen

BPM:
I answerd your question many times. You just did not like the way I answered. That is a personal preference of mine and evidently a personal problem of yours.
I answer that question in many different ways. I at times redirect the question to the one asking it. At times, I say the church of the New Testament. I may reply the church of Acts 2. This give me the opportunity to teach others which I take as a serious obligation. A blunt answer at times may be appropriate for some but for others it may not be. It is my preference to answer in a manner that should help me in teaching the gospel of Christ. I am not perfect in my judgement about answering but I try to do the most effective job in answering, depending on the querist.
I have answered you in all of these ways. As for your use of scripture to answer my arguements, you have not done this. I may have missed them, if so, I will look back at the post to make sure I have not missed anything. Have a nice day
Frank