Church of Christ

[BPM]

Amen Susanpet,
Let me say that I appreciated your addition to this thread, and I agree with you.

Frank,
You have every right to believe the scripture the way you see it, and state your beliefs.
But since we will never change one another all this is wasted.
You are placing alot of stock in the fact that your questions haven't been answered. Please answer mine, are you Church of Christ?

 

[Briguy]

Hey Frank, Hope this day finds you well!!
You wrote:

In I Peter 3:21, the Bible says, " the like figure where unto even baptism doth also now save us not the putting away of the filth of the flesh but the answer to a good conscience toward God by the resurection of Jesus Christ.
Furthermore, I would like to know what makes repentance, belief, and confession essential and not baptism.

First of all, that verse was interpreted by someone else on this thread already. The key is not the water but the good conscience. That good conscience IS being in Christ. The water is a simple outward copy of what happens on the inside of a person. It gives us a visual picture of something we understand to show how something we don't understand works. We could probably find many many examples of that type of thing in the Bible.

Second, Repentance, Belief, Recieving, are all part of the same inward process when we come to a saving faith in Christ. They all happen inwardly and are done by the person on their own. Baptism requires another person and is done with outward things (water, church service, etc...). That is how Baptism is different. Think about it Frank, If a great world catastrophy happened and I ended up being the last person alive on earth, I would no longer be covered by the grace of God because there would be no one to baptize me. I would be unsaveable no matter how true my belief and repentance were. That brother Frank, I cannot accept.

In Christ,
Brian

 

[Frank]

BPM:
I place my trust( stock) in the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is not me who changes anyone, but the word of God.( Hebs.4:12).
The reason my questions have not been answered is because they cannot be answered by those who oppose the scriptures on this matter.The Biblical and evidence proves to the rational person that baptism is for unto the remission of sins. ( Acts 2:38, Acts 8:38).
I realize some men will reject truth, even religious people. They did in the days of our Lord. ( Jn. 12:42-44). The rulers of the temple would not confess christ for fear they would be put out of the synagogue for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God. However, Christ commands that one teach. The fruits result when the word is taken into the sincere fertile soil of the heart.(Luke 8:15).
I have stated in more than one post that I am a Christian in response to your question.(Acts 11:26). As you have stated," are you a church Christ." No, I am not a church of Christ. I am a part of the Body of Christ, but I am not a church of Christ. I have no church, only Christ does. He bought it. (Acts 20:27). He is the head of the body.(Col. 1:18). He has all authority over the saved. (Mat. 28:18-20.). He purchased the servants.( I Pet.1:17-18, I Cor.6:20). I wear his name and his alone.(Isaiah 62:2, Acts 11:26). My code of conduct is the New Testament of Jesus Christ.( Hebrews 10:7;9:17,Mk. 14:24). I hope this will suffice in answering your question. If you want more information I will happily provide it.

Frank

 

[Frank]

Briguy:
The verse is a reference to a like figure. The water in the days of Noah. Read verse 20. It says, wherein a few. 8 souls, were saved By WATER. In I Cor. 10: 1-4, the Children of Israel were baptized in the clouds and in the sea. This is a reference to the parting of the Red Sea. It is a like figure of the baptism of unto the remission of sins.
As the children of Israel traveled across the Red Sea, they were surounded on either side by WATER and above them water vapour(clouds). This is a like figure of the baptism of the New Testament for remitting sins. It is an immersion or overwhelming in WATER. Baptizo, Baptisma in water was practiced for the remission of sins in the church of the first century. The apostasy of this doctrine happened when Novation, who was sick at the time, was unscripturally sprinkled in the second century. The doctrine of direct operation by the Holy Spirit in regeneration began with Calvin hundreds of years later.
I have read all the past posts and there was no scriptural refutation of I Pet.3:21.
Frank

 

[Briguy]

Frank Frank Frank, We do have to look at scripture and search out its meaning at times, right? When scripture says to chop off your hand when it causes you to sin, do you?. No, because it defies logic. Water did not save Noah, the Ark saved Noah. That is the logical deduction. The water provided the ARK the ability to float. The water as we know destroyed all the people and all of their things. You have to read scripture in context, as you know, and as a whole. You seem so fixated on baptism you may be missing the real point, that being that we have a new ARK in Jesus. The ark saved Noah and Jesus saves us, the water is simply symbolic and again a way to use physical things to explain spiritual, kind of like a parable.

Finally, you did not respond to my last person on earth question and what is the name of the church you go to?

In Love and Truth,
Brian

 

[Eladar]

Brian,

I don't believe you ever answered my question:

Can you name one Christian in the Bible who was not baptized.

Even Jesus was baptized. Why would Jesus be baptized if it wasn't necessary? Everything we do is an example for another. Why shouldn't we follow Jesus' example and teach others to do the same?

 

[Frank]

Briguy:
The Bible says Water saved the eight souls. I Peter 3:20. Water is literal as it was in the day of Noah. Water provided the ark a mean of getting to the new world. This is what the text in Genesis implies. Without water,the world would not have been changed in the days of Noah. the ark would have still been sitting there on dry land in the same sinful world. By the way, the first rain from heaven began this flood. Those people scoffed at water too! Again, a like figure of baptizo,baptisma in water just as in I Cor. 10:1-4.

 

[Frank]

Briguy:
In response to the last person one earth hypothesis. God has guarantteed today, the present time to become a Christian.(II Cor6:1,2). Some men wait to late. The richman in Luke waited too late. From all accounts, Agrippa waited too late. Pharoah waited too late. This is a rehash of the ambulance illustration I used earlier. I teach what Jesus said to teach about salvation. Man must obey it.( Hebrews 5:8,9). Today, is the time of salvation and life is too short for some.( James 1:14).
Frank

 

[Frank]

Briguy:
The chopping of one's hand is figurative or theuse of hyperbole (exaggeration to stress a truth). It was not meant as a literal chopping of of one's hand. The water is literal. This is an invalid illustration. The same as your assertion about I Cor. 1.
Frank

 

[Frank]

Briguy:
Water is a symbol. A NECERSSARY ONE. The fruit of the vine symbolizes the blood of the new covenant which is also a NECESSARY SYMBOL. The Bread of the Lord's Supper is a symbol of his body. it ,too, is a NECESSARY SYMBOL. In each of these, partaking of the Lord's Supper and baptism, one obeys the commands of Christ. He expresses his love and submission to the one who died for him.(Jn. 14:15, Hebs. 5:8,9, Mat.18:3,4).
Frank

 

[Briguy]

Hey Nils,
you wrote:
Can you name one Christian in the Bible who was not baptized.
Actually, I can't but their are many people where we don't know if they were Baptized or not.

But----- Not to beat a dead horse but then baptism was the thing to do and now it seems to have less significance.

Thank you for your example about Jesus, that was a good point and I will meditate on that as I search for what I want to do in terms of baptism for myself.

Nils, I have a question for you, What do you do about the fact that Baptisms are done so much different now then they were? Keeping with tradition I should be Baptized by the person who shared the gospel with me, right? If not, why not?

In Christ,
Brian

 

[Eladar]

I don't believe it had to be with the person who shared it. There is a passage that says Paul planted the seed and someone else watered it. Paul did not baptize many people in Corinth I believe it was.

I believe that it just so happened that where conversions that were recorded in the Bible took place, there weren't a great deal of other Christians doing the baptizing.

It doesn't matter who does the baptizing, it matters who you are batized into. I believe Paul made this point abudantly clear.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Tuor:
Can you name one Christian in the Bible who was not baptized.

Even Jesus was baptized. Why would Jesus be baptized if it wasn't necessary? Everything we do is an example for another. Why shouldn't we follow Jesus' example and teach others to do the same?

The thief on the cross was not baptized. Christ was baptized but not for salvation. That in itself should be enough to tell one that baptism is not necessary for salvation. It is purely symbolic. Was it necessary for the salvation of the thief on the cross? Was it necessary for the salvation of Christ? (Did Christ need saving?) Can water have the power to save?
DHK

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Good one, DHK.

Also, the woman who thought touching the hem of Christ's garment would do the trick, Jesus said to her in Matthew 9:22

"...thy faith has made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour."

There is no reference to Baptism here, we don't know anything else about that woman, except God saved her through her faith.

Luke chapter 7 gives us another woman saved thru faith without any mention of baptism. (vs 50)

Luke 18 tell of the blind man who's faith saved him (vs 42).

I'm sure there are many, many more examples. I do believe the symbolic act of baptism is God's will for new christians, but baptism in and of itself doesn't figure into salvation.

[ May 07, 2002, 11:32 PM: Message edited by: Mr. Curtis ]

 

[Dualhunter]

10:5 For Moses writes about the righteousness that is by the law: “The one who does these things will live by them.”5 10:6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart,6 ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’”7 (that is, to bring Christ down) 10:7 or “Who will descend into the abyss?”8 (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 10:8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”9 (that is, the word of faith that we preach), 10:9 because if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord10 and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10:10 For with the heart one believes and thus has righteousness11 and with the mouth one confesses and thus has salvation.12 10:11 For the scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.”13 10:12 For there is no distinction between the Jew and the Greek, for the same Lord is Lord of all, who richly blesses all who call on him. 10:13 For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.14 - Romans 10:5-13 NET

 

[BPM]

Originally posted by Frank:
[QB]Briguy:
Water is a symbol. A NECERSSARY ONE. The fruit of the vine symbolizes the blood of the new covenant which is also a NECESSARY SYMBOL. The Bread of the Lord's Supper is a symbol of his body. it ,too, is a NECESSARY SYMBOL.

Frank by the above are you now stateing that partaking of the Lord's supper is also necessary for salvation? As to 1 Cor 10:1-5 notice a few things, #1 no one got wet, so did water save them or were they saved from the water. #2 everyone ate and drank of the same food, symbolic of Christ but many were overthrown. So the baptism didn't save them and it still doesn't.

In 1 Peter 3:21 I think the last part is a key, "by the resserection of Jesus Christ" Jesus paid it all, anything I do is a filthy rag when that thing (even something as beautiful as Baptism) is done in an effort to earn my salvation.

Now to your answer of my question about your denominational preference. When you said you were not COC or anything other than new testament christianity, did you honestly mean that you don't attend Church or are you saying you are non denominational. Heb 10:25 doesn't apply here does it?

 

[Frank]

Hello All:
The thief and those mentioned as not having been baptized lived under the Old Testament. God could grant forgiveness as he so choosed.( Mark 2:6-11). If a person was a Jew, he was baptized with John's baptism which was for unto the remission of sins,( Mark 1:4). If the thief were a Jew, he would have been baptized with John's baptism, You are making unsubstantiated assumption's. The text does not tell us if he wre a Jew or not.It does nt tell us if he were baptized either. However, since the Old Law was in force,he could be forgiven under the old law by the Lord.

 

[Briguy]

Frank, Jesus died before the thief and thus ushered in the new covenant. What did Jesus say to the diciples in the upper room? Perhaps the new covenant started when they shared the cup, if not certainly it started when his blood was shed.

In Truth,
Brian

[ May 08, 2002, 08:38 AM: Message edited by: The Briguy ]

 

[Frank]

BPM:
The baptism of I Cor. 10:1-4 as was the baptism in the days of Noah represent-FIGURES.What is the LIKE FIGURE in the New Testament. It is an immersion in water. A figure of what we read about in I Cor. 10:1-4. The Eunch understood it in Acts 8:38. Read the account it may help you.
Your failure to understand the term is one reason you are in error about New Testament baptism for unto the remission of sins. A figure is a shadow or a similar thing to come but NOT THE EXACT THING. It is a picture of something to come.
The blood sacrifices of the Old Testament were types of what was to come. Jesus the lamb slain for us.( I Peter 1:17,18). You need to study the Old Testament to understand like figures. In the Numbers 21, The Children of Israel were told to look upon the serpent on a pole to be saved.Today, men look to Jesus on the cross. The serpent on the pole was a figure of things to come. Jesus said and I, if I be lifted up I will draw all men unto myself. Just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness so shall the son of man be lifted up.
According to you, I believe in SNAKE RELIGION!
NO,in all these examples, the Old Testament reference was a FIGURE, not the very thing.
Your misunderstanding of Baptism in the New Testament is a result of not understanding the Old Testament.
Simply put, God has always required faithful obedience to be saved. In each of the FIGURES all who OBEYED WERE SAVED, those who looked upon the snake in the wilderness,
the eight souls in Noah's day, and today those who obey the LIKE FIGURE the command to be baptized!(Acts 10:48, Mk. 16:16).
If you would like another example to study,II Kings 5 and Naaman the leper would be a good example.
Finally, it is a fatal mistake to appeal to silence ( something not written) for approval of God. Jesus appealed to that which is written.(Mat. 4:4-11). Three times he said IT IS WRITTEN.
He did so in response to the devil who was wanting him to do that which was wrong.
My appeal is to what is written,not silence.
Frank

 

[Eladar]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Tuor:
Can you name one Christian in the Bible who was not baptized.

The thief on the cross was not baptized. Christ was baptized but not for salvation. That in itself should be enough to tell one that baptism is not necessary for salvation. It is purely symbolic. Was it necessary for the salvation of the thief on the cross? Was it necessary for the salvation of Christ? (Did Christ need saving?) Can water have the power to save?
DHK</font>[/QUOTE]The theif didn't really have the opportunity to be baptized now did he?

I would make the connection between James' reference to Abraham's action and baptism. Neither act saves, but both acts reveal the heart. Both acts are following out God's commands. Faith perfected by actions.