One church--with the following qualifiers:
no universal church--visible or invisible.
Selah,
Bro. James
no universal church--visible or invisible.
Selah,
Bro. James
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Christians Evangelizing Catholics
- Thread starter John3v36
- Start date
Can anyone else spot the blatant contradiction between those two statements?
Yours in Christ
Matt
Yours in Christ
Matt
Spotting the Blatant,
Are we meeting with family members at this time of year? Could we do it by proxy? If the family is universal what is the point of gathering?.
The "assembly" is visible and local--always has been.
Selah,
Bro. James
Are we meeting with family members at this time of year? Could we do it by proxy? If the family is universal what is the point of gathering?.
The "assembly" is visible and local--always has been.
Selah,
Bro. James
Yes but my family exists in its entirety even though I couldn't meet up with them all in one go; they remain no less my family and I am still just as related to them
Yours in Christ
Matt
Yours in Christ
Matt
I believe that every believer is born into the family of God. We all become children of God (John 1:12). However, it is apparent from the teaching given throughout the 12th chapter of 1Corinthiants that each local church is (a) body of Christ.
1 Corinthians 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
Check the Greek here. There is no definite article, "the." It was put there by the translators to make the sentence grammatically correct. The indefinite article would also make sense (i.e., "a"). And that is precisely what Paul was teaching them. Christ is the head of every church. The Apostles made up part of the foundation, with Christ being the chief cornerstone. Building on that were the prophets and teachers. Then Paul teachers that each member has its own place in the church, and we all can't be the same member having the same function (such as being the pastor). There are some which have to take a more lowly position. That was the problem in Corinth--pride.
This illustration could never work in a universal invisible church model. How could a believer in Africa or South America suffer and all the members of your church suffer with it. Impossible. You don't know their sufferings, and have never heard of those believers. But you are acquainted with the members of your own church, and if you have any compassion at all, will share in their suufferings. That is the only way that that verse can be interpreted (12:26)
Now let me ask you a simple question to drive this point home. How many Christs are there? Just one?
How is it then that he dwells in the life of every believer?
DHK
1 Corinthians 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
Check the Greek here. There is no definite article, "the." It was put there by the translators to make the sentence grammatically correct. The indefinite article would also make sense (i.e., "a"). And that is precisely what Paul was teaching them. Christ is the head of every church. The Apostles made up part of the foundation, with Christ being the chief cornerstone. Building on that were the prophets and teachers. Then Paul teachers that each member has its own place in the church, and we all can't be the same member having the same function (such as being the pastor). There are some which have to take a more lowly position. That was the problem in Corinth--pride.
This illustration could never work in a universal invisible church model. How could a believer in Africa or South America suffer and all the members of your church suffer with it. Impossible. You don't know their sufferings, and have never heard of those believers. But you are acquainted with the members of your own church, and if you have any compassion at all, will share in their suufferings. That is the only way that that verse can be interpreted (12:26)
Now let me ask you a simple question to drive this point home. How many Christs are there? Just one?
How is it then that he dwells in the life of every believer?
DHK
I guess that's why the Persecution Forum was dropped then, since none of us suffer when other Christians are persecuted unless they're on our local church 
Yours in Christ
Matt
Yours in Christ
Matt
Your statement is ludicrous Matt. It infers a number of things.
First of all: Paul didn't have the internet and telecommunations like we do today. It was impossible for him to know all the Christians that were suffering in his day. He was writing to the Corinthian Church, and only to the Corinthian church, when he said if one member suffer, then all the other members (of that particular church) suffer with you). He would have little knowledge of the other churches. He spent a year and half in Corinth himself.
What knowledge do you have of other churches--persecution or not.
Pakistan has a population of over 150 million, and 3% of those are Christian. You can do the calculations. How many do you know by name? How many of their particular sufferings in their specific situations do you know? Is it possible for you to say anything about them other than, "God help the persecuted people of Pakistan." God never intended us to pray like that. God never intended us to pray: "Lord bless all the people of the world, and help the persecuted ones especially." He intended us to pray specifially, and specifically for the needs of others. You can't do that if you don't know their needs.
The mother of one of the members of our church just underwent a quadruple by-pass heart surgery. We pray for her. We suffer with her. She is already an elderly lady. Do you know her name? Do you suffer with her? Have you been praying for her? NO. What Paul was speaking of was the local church. The local church suffers when one member of the local church suffers. We have little if any knowledge of the other Christians of the world. The model that Paul described can only fit that of a local church.
DHK
First of all: Paul didn't have the internet and telecommunations like we do today. It was impossible for him to know all the Christians that were suffering in his day. He was writing to the Corinthian Church, and only to the Corinthian church, when he said if one member suffer, then all the other members (of that particular church) suffer with you). He would have little knowledge of the other churches. He spent a year and half in Corinth himself.
What knowledge do you have of other churches--persecution or not.
Pakistan has a population of over 150 million, and 3% of those are Christian. You can do the calculations. How many do you know by name? How many of their particular sufferings in their specific situations do you know? Is it possible for you to say anything about them other than, "God help the persecuted people of Pakistan." God never intended us to pray like that. God never intended us to pray: "Lord bless all the people of the world, and help the persecuted ones especially." He intended us to pray specifially, and specifically for the needs of others. You can't do that if you don't know their needs.
The mother of one of the members of our church just underwent a quadruple by-pass heart surgery. We pray for her. We suffer with her. She is already an elderly lady. Do you know her name? Do you suffer with her? Have you been praying for her? NO. What Paul was speaking of was the local church. The local church suffers when one member of the local church suffers. We have little if any knowledge of the other Christians of the world. The model that Paul described can only fit that of a local church.
DHK
Then don't pretend to understand the simple meaning of the Scriptures when you don't. Paul wasn't giving lessons on microbiology and human pathology or endocrinology to the Corinthians. He gave a simple illustration of the members of the body in 1Cor.12. What are the members of the body? Read the passage. He mentions many of them: the head, the foot, the eye, the hand, etc. He mentions the basic members of the body which every person is familiar with. He was using a simple analogy. You have brought a red herring into this discussion and have taken it from the extreme to the ridiculous. Paul wasn't talking about microbiology. He was't talking about things like:
Shehan's syndrome: "postpartum hypopituitarism resulting from ischemic necrosis of the pituitary." He was using a simple analogy of the body and its various members; the members of the body that all were familiar with.
He had no intention of teaching them the intricasies of the "silent killer," as you absurdly suggest. It was a simple analogy that could only be applied to a local church setting.
Read the gospels. Time and time again he prayed specifically. That is your example to follow. He prayed specifically for his disciples. He told Peter he would pray for him, because he knew that he would deny him 3 times. He prayed for the 10 lepers. He prayed for blind Bartimaeus. He prayed for Lazarus to "Come forth." He prayed for Peter's wife's mother to be healed. He gave thanks for the fish and bread, and then proceeded to distribute them among 5,000 people. In Mark 1:35 he went alone to a quiet place and there prayed to his Father. He prayed in the garden of Gethsamene for the Father's will to be done, and not his own. His prayers were very specific.
Notice the type of prayers that were absent in his prayer life.
He never prayed for all the Chinese people living in China, though they existed at that time? Why? He never prayed for all the people in India at that time. Thomas went as a missionary to them later. They were there. Christ didn't pray general prayers; he prayed very specific prayers. As you said: Follow his example. He never prayed for the aboriginals living in North America, thouth they were probably here at that time. Why? Was he unconcerned? No. He always taught the principle of specific prayer. You never find Christ teaching the model of praying "Lord bless all the people of the world." It is verging on a heretical prayer, because God cannot bless all the people of the world. Many heretical people of the world are engaged in the business of sending people to Hell. Shall we pray that God bless them and their work??
1Cor.12 was an analogy that could only fit a local church. And when one member of the local church suffered all the members of that church suffered with it. That only applies to local churches, not to any fictious universal invisible church. There is no such monster mentioned in the Bible. The very word ekklesia means assembly or congregation. It is impossible to have an unassembled assembly.
DHK
Then don't pretend to understand the simple meaning of the Scriptures when you don't. Paul wasn't giving lessons on microbiology and human pathology or endocrinology to the Corinthians. He gave a simple illustration of the members of the body in 1Cor.12. What are the members of the body? Read the passage. He mentions many of them: the head, the foot, the eye, the hand, etc. He mentions the basic members of the body which every person is familiar with. He was using a simple analogy. You have brought a red herring into this discussion and have taken it from the extreme to the ridiculous. Paul wasn't talking about microbiology. He was't talking about things like:
Shehan's syndrome: "postpartum hypopituitarism resulting from ischemic necrosis of the pituitary." He was using a simple analogy of the body and its various members; the members of the body that all were familiar with.
He had no intention of teaching them the intricasies of the "silent killer," as you absurdly suggest. It was a simple analogy that could only be applied to a local church setting.
Read the gospels. Time and time again he prayed specifically. That is your example to follow. He prayed specifically for his disciples. He told Peter he would pray for him, because he knew that he would deny him 3 times. He prayed for the 10 lepers. He prayed for blind Bartimaeus. He prayed for Lazarus to "Come forth." He prayed for Peter's wife's mother to be healed. He gave thanks for the fish and bread, and then proceeded to distribute them among 5,000 people. In Mark 1:35 he went alone to a quiet place and there prayed to his Father. He prayed in the garden of Gethsamene for the Father's will to be done, and not his own. His prayers were very specific.
Notice the type of prayers that were absent in his prayer life.
He never prayed for all the Chinese people living in China, though they existed at that time? Why? He never prayed for all the people in India at that time. Thomas went as a missionary to them later. They were there. Christ didn't pray general prayers; he prayed very specific prayers. As you said: Follow his example. He never prayed for the aboriginals living in North America, thouth they were probably here at that time. Why? Was he unconcerned? No. He always taught the principle of specific prayer. You never find Christ teaching the model of praying "Lord bless all the people of the world." It is verging on a heretical prayer, because God cannot bless all the people of the world. Many heretical people of the world are engaged in the business of sending people to Hell. Shall we pray that God bless them and their work??
me
he did pray
John 17:20 ¶ Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
and in it you can find the Chinese people.
1Cor.12 was an analogy that could only fit a local church. And when one member of the local church suffered all the members of that church suffered with it. That only applies to local churches, not to any fictious universal invisible church. There is no such monster mentioned in the Bible. The very word ekklesia means assembly or congregation. It is impossible to have an unassembled assembly.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]How can it only be a local church? if it was local why would they go out side the locle church to get help from paul.
Which local church was Christ speaking of when he said MY church shall never fail?
where is that church today?
The problem I have with the "local church" theory is that it splits the body of Christ into innumerable churches and denominations, all teaching something different. Is this unity? I think not. Rather, it is an invitation to heresy as Paul warned.
Individual churches lead to individual leaders with conflicting and sometimes heretical views - example Joseph Smith, Mary Baker Eddy, health-and-wealth preachers, etc. etc. etc.
Individual churches lead to individual leaders with conflicting and sometimes heretical views - example Joseph Smith, Mary Baker Eddy, health-and-wealth preachers, etc. etc. etc.
Agreed
Yours in Christ
Matt
Yours in Christ
Matt
There was heresy in the church at Corinth that Paul had to correct, even to the very denial of the Resurrection, but it was a church nevertheless.
The only definition of ekklesia you will ever find is "congregation" or "assembly" The only assembly of all beleivers that there will ever be will be in Heaven. Otherwise it is impossible to have an unassembled assembly. It is unscriptural to even conceive of a "body of Christ" being universal.
You speak of denominations. Show me a denomination in the Bible. There are none. It is the denomination that is unscriptural. Sola Scriptura is a Biblical doctrine which every local church must act upon, and if they did we would not have all these cults following people like Mary Eddy Baker and her visions and dreams. We have a responsibility to ourselves and to God, to study to show ourselves approved unto God, workmen that need not to be ashamed, but rightly dividing the Word of truth. That is what the Bereans did in Acts 17:11, before they accepted the message of Paul. They didn't blindly accept any man's message without studying it and comparing it to the Scriptures first. People today are so gullible that they will follow the first guru that comes along. Case in point--the New Age Movement, The Third Wave Movement, etc. People want experiences, not Biblical doctrine.
Christ never taught that the believers the world over would be unified in all doctrinal matters. That is a misconception based on Scripture taken out of context. Paul said plainly to the Corinthians that there would be heresies among you, and then he said it is a good thing. Why? That the false teachers would be weeded out.
The cry of the New Evangelical today is "Give me unity, not doctrine." They want unity at the expense of doctrine. And thus you have the ecumenical movement that must dispense with essential doctrines in order to join hands together with various faiths. That is the ungodly union that the antichrist will someday demand of all religions.
DHK
The only definition of ekklesia you will ever find is "congregation" or "assembly" The only assembly of all beleivers that there will ever be will be in Heaven. Otherwise it is impossible to have an unassembled assembly. It is unscriptural to even conceive of a "body of Christ" being universal.
You speak of denominations. Show me a denomination in the Bible. There are none. It is the denomination that is unscriptural. Sola Scriptura is a Biblical doctrine which every local church must act upon, and if they did we would not have all these cults following people like Mary Eddy Baker and her visions and dreams. We have a responsibility to ourselves and to God, to study to show ourselves approved unto God, workmen that need not to be ashamed, but rightly dividing the Word of truth. That is what the Bereans did in Acts 17:11, before they accepted the message of Paul. They didn't blindly accept any man's message without studying it and comparing it to the Scriptures first. People today are so gullible that they will follow the first guru that comes along. Case in point--the New Age Movement, The Third Wave Movement, etc. People want experiences, not Biblical doctrine.
Christ never taught that the believers the world over would be unified in all doctrinal matters. That is a misconception based on Scripture taken out of context. Paul said plainly to the Corinthians that there would be heresies among you, and then he said it is a good thing. Why? That the false teachers would be weeded out.
The cry of the New Evangelical today is "Give me unity, not doctrine." They want unity at the expense of doctrine. And thus you have the ecumenical movement that must dispense with essential doctrines in order to join hands together with various faiths. That is the ungodly union that the antichrist will someday demand of all religions.
DHK
SS is not even in the Bible. It's also sine ecclesia ...
Yours in Christ
Matt
SS is not even in the Bible. It's also sine ecclesia ...
Yours in Christ
Matt </font>[/QUOTE]Sunday School has nothing to do with "church," per se. It was established in Britain originally with the intent on getting the poor poverty-stricken children off the streets, and educating them (by using the Bible) and making the literate. It was more like a Christian day school of today, but only once a week. Its purpose was entirely different. It was totally educational, more of a school (as the name implies), and not a church. 2 or 3 can gather together to operate a farm, but that doesn't make them a church. The Sunday School didn't make a churh either.
I meant Sola Scriptura...as I'm sure you know, not Sunday school.
Yours in Christ
Matt
Yours in Christ
Matt