Once saved always saved

I can and will respond fully to any passage you bring forth. I stopped doing so because you kept on ignoring my questions about John 4:14. Yet you believe I should keep on answering you even though you refuse to answer me. That is called hypocritcal. I asked you about John 4:14 long ago, long before you ever began on Romans 11, but you never answered.

As I said, I asked you about "born again" long before Romans 11 came up but you chose to ignore it. So you accuse me of not addressing your comments, the very thing you have been doing to me.

Wonderful testimony brother and may God richly bless you! Thank you for your answer.

Now you are a child of God, born by the will of God and not your own (Joh 1:13). We know that anyone who has been born can never become unborn. It is an irrevocable event. We know that anyone who has been physically born has a biological father. We know that this biological father can never change. Jesus uses the same analogy. We know that once spiritually born of God, God becomes our spiritual Father. We are called "children of God" a "child of God". This, likewise, is also irrevocable. Hence the analogy Jesus uses. One cannot be born of God and then become unborn. Therefore, once born always born and once God is your Father He will always be your Father. This fact cannot change.

Therefore, if you teach that those born of God can be condemned to hell, then you are teaching that 1) God is as imperfect as us human fathers in that He cannot bring His children under total submission either. 2) children of God go to hell. Once born of God one cannot change Fathers.

God Bless!

 

Well, let's look at Romans 11-19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

It clearly says he can take you out of the vine.

So doesn't that mean it is up to us and our actions wheather we are saved?

When a parent gives their child a gift, it is usually because they love them, and want to make them happy. But if the child misbehaves, sometimes the parent takes the gift away. Sometimes for a little while, but sometimes permenantly. It depends on the behavior of the child.

GOD WILL DO THE SAME THING! That's what that Rom 11 scripture means!!



Peace,

Tam

 

Hi Tam

So you believe that our "actions" or "behavior" is what saves us?

God Bless!

 

No, Jesus saves us!

We have a free will!

If we decide to not follow Him, we will not be saved.

Look at the Rom 11 scripture. It's there in black and white.

Peace,

Tam

 

So you are saying that it is Jesus who saves us, BUT it depends on our "behavior" if He chooses to do so? I always thought it depended on our being "born again", but I will hear your argument.

I re-read the chapter once again and I cannot find any references to "behavior" or "following". Can you post the verses please? You said it was in black and white.

God Bless!

 

Steaver,

O.K. heres the scripture. Also my explanation in bold type.

Rom 11-20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off,

(The jews were broken off, because of their unbelief, so that we could be grafted in)

and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.( God can also cut you off, just like He did the natural branches)

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God( God can be good and He can be severe) : on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness how do we continue in His goodness? Don't we have to keep on believing?) otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. ( We can be broken off if we decide not to believe anymore)
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.( The Jews also, if they decide to believe in Jesus, then He will graft them in again)

( In my opinion, we have to do something [BELIEVE] . we can't just sit around like a lump with a blank stare, WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING, and that thing is believe!!)

I do hope you see what I am saying. It is very clear to me, and I hope I have conveyed my understanding to you.

Peace,

Tam

 

Now your talking!

It is all about "belief". I didn't think there was anything said about "behavior"!

Belief is not a problem with those who have recieved the Gift of Living Water, Eternal life, saving faith.

"For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance".

That is an eternal truth revealed in this verse. It is not just exclusive to this passsage. If it were, it would not be a plural.

The born again can never thirst! (John 4:14)

God Bless!

 

Steaver, believe whatever you want!

Peace,

Tam

_________________________________________

Matthew 15-14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

 

Ouch!

I am disappointed in you Tam. Jesus said this concerning those who God the Father has not regenerated. I am sorry you have concluded that I must be lost.

13. But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
14. Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.


May God bless you richly!

 

John 8:31. Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed ;
32. And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free .
33. They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34. Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed (in fact, justso, truly) .

" know " -Webster's- "To have knowledge; to be certain of; to recognize; to have acquaintance or experience with, as, to know a thing is so."

To say one can " know " the " truth ", yet " not believe " the truth, is an oxymoran.

To say one can "hear" the truth, yet one can "not believe" the truth, is a truth.

Some hear the gospel and "say" they believe. Others hear the gospel and continue until they "know" they believe. They "know" when God gives them the Holy Spirit upon conversion.

Therefore, If the Son shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. You cannot "not believe" once you "know" the truth. "Belief" will forever be with you and in you, "born again"! Praise Jesus! God gets all the glory!

I "know" that I am alive. Can I somehow believe that I am not?

......for I know whom I have believed , and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us . (2 Ti 1:12)

God Bless!

 

How much do you “ know ”?

The Apostle John reveals much information about just what the born of God “ know ”. The “born again” know many things because God dwells in them through the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit. The Spirit is our witness.

“ The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God :” (Romans 8:16)

How is it possible that one born of God could stop believing in Christ, when the Spirit of Christ dwells within the born again? How could one stop believing in a person who is born into their very being?

“Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.” (1 John 5:1)

“For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.” (4)

“This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.” (6)

“ He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself :” (10)

“We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.” (18)

“And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.” (19-20)

The “ we ” John speaks of are the born of God.

Do you know you are of God?

Do you know that the Son of God is come?

Do you know him that is true?

Do you know you are in him that is true?

Do you know this is the true God, and eternal life?

Do you know whosoever is born of God sinneth not?

Do you know whosoever is born of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not?

Do you know whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world?

Do you know the Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God?

Just a few things to consider when you are pondering whether or not a born again Christian can stop believing in Jesus Christ.

Once you know something, you always know it.

God Bless!

 

It's impossible to convince you otherwise on the meaning of this and many other similar Scriptures. I can only tell you, so did I believe most of my youth. Then these Scriptures changed their meaning to me. How? I can only attribute it to God's convincing Power by His Holy Spirit. All Israel is saved. All the branches that end the end are grafted in the trunk (Christ) are Israel.

 

All the branches that in the end are grafted in the Trunk (Jesus) are Israel - the true and spiritual Israel. God certainly removes branches that are grafted in through physical descendency only, as He removes branches artificially grafted in - a spiritual possibility like it is a physical possibility. God's Elect remain, kept by His power and love.

 

Hello All!

Remember, Eph 2:8-9 For by GRACE are ye saved through FAITH....and not of yourselves, not of works. TO say one could LOSE his salvation is to admit that they did something to EARN salvation. Those who do not beleive in eternal security most always trust in a "works" salvation. I am a BAPTIST, and a true Baptist is one that believes the bible is the inerrant and infallible word of God, and is the final authority for our faith AND practice. God wrote it, God meant it, we should obey it.

 

Steaver writes:

I’ve been very busy, but I wanted to take time out finally to get back to you on these comments.

First, I think it is a mistake to assume that because the Scriptures use a figure to teach something that we are free to draw a correspondence in every way between the physical and spiritual. It is fanciful to go beyond the points of comparison made by the Scriptures themselves.

But having said that, who says that one can become unborn? That is not the question. The question is whether one can subsequently forsake one’s relationship with God and thereby die spiritually.

In Jude, included in the description of those leading others astray, is the phrase in verse 12 “twice dead”. In Greek, this is a participle. Literally, it is “twice having died”. These men were still physically alive. How had they died twice? The answer is not difficult. We all die spiritually once. These men had “rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.” They had died twice, spiritually.

In 2 Peter 2, a chapter long noted for its striking similarities with Jude, Peter describes the false teachers as “Accursed children. Forsaking the right way, they have gone astray.” Were they still children of God? Yes. But they were “accursed children”.

As to my position making God incapable of bringing His children under submission, that is untrue. God can do anything He wants. But He wants our love freely given. He does not remove our free will upon conversion. Your position of OSAS is consistent within a Calvinistic framework (although I believe that system to be false), but it is inconsistent outside that framework.

OSAS is contradicted by passage after passage. It rests upon your human reasoning about words and concepts that are not applied that way in the Scriptures themselves.

Our relationship with God our Father is a wonderful thing. It is a great comfort to know that if He did not spare His own Son for us, that He will spare nothing that we need. He will provide for us and protect us. But it is contrary to Scriptures to believe that God keeps us against our will. We are kept safe by the power of God through faith, but sadly, some fall into unbelief. Some forsake Him. The Scriptures are full not only of warnings, but also of examples of defection. They also include this prophecy.

NAS 1 Timothy 4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

I believe what the Spirit explicitly says.

Blessings,

Bob

 

Bob, you should really take the time to study the passages you bring into this discussion in there entirety. Here is the folks Jude is speaking of.

“ For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ .” (4)

Number one, these are not Christians who die a second spiritual death. In fact, all people are born spiritually dead at birth . This is why one " must be born again "! Therefore if one were to spiritually die twice they would need to be born again twice. This can never happen.

Second, those “denying our Lord Jesus Christ” are not Christians. Never were and according to this verse, never will be. They “ were before of old ordained to this condemnation ” “ ungodly men ”.

No Bob, they were not the children of God ever . These are false teachers as well, who “ deny the Lord that bought them ”. And no, “bought them” does not mean they were saved at one time or Christ is their Lord (master, despot) but He could have been because He paid the price for their release from sin. They denied Him (renounced) and would not have anything to do with Him when they could have been saved.

As we can clearly see, it is not I who is misrepresenting the scriptures making false teachers and ungodly men the children of God. The scriptures clearly explain just how true children of God behave and produce fruit. It is strange to me that you cannot see the differences declared in scripture between the truly lost and the truly saved.

Again a misunderstanding of the content of Paul’s letter to Timothy. This letter is about keeping and teaching sound doctrine .

2. Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
3. As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine ,
4. Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.
5. Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
6. From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
7. Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm .

Departing from “the faith” is in reference to “sound doctrine” and not becoming lost again.

“Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine ; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.” (16)

Now before you assume that “save thyself” means that not “continuing in them” equates to a loss of salvation, remember that we cannot “save ourselves” as in eternal salvation. The “save” Paul is speaking of is saving oneself from following these “seducing spirits” into these false doctrinal positions. (Like believing you can lose eternal life )

Do you? Always? And forever will? What if you one day decide to not believe the Spirit anymore? You cannot say for sure right now that next year you will still be saved, right? In fact, you cannot truthfully say that you have eternal life right now, correct? Because eternal means everlasting, but if it could end next year, then I guess it wasn’t ever eternal then.

God Bless!

[ February 01, 2005, 10:28 PM: Message edited by: steaver ]

 

Steaver,

So, "twice having died" is meaningless? It just can't mean what I think it means. And the "accursed children" were never children to begin with?

Hmmm...This has been an interesting discussion.

In Him,

Bob

 

“Twice dead” is describing those who are headed for an eternity in hell. They will already have died physically once and they will die again after the Great White Throne Judgment.There will be some believers who escape the first death in the rapture, but the lost will not escape either death. They will be or are "twice dead"!

“But the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death .” (Rev 21:8)

“cursed children” is describing the children of the devil. You have assumed that this meant "children of God" but that is not what it says so one must search the scriptures and will find out that there are two sets of children spoken of.

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil : whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:9-10)

“Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth ”. (2 Tim 2:15)

I know these passages are difficult for many to comprehend. I understand why many believe as you do Bob. But through much humble prayer and seeking the Holy Spirit for truth, one can fully grasp what God has accomplished through Jesus Christ and the rebirth, the creation of His children fitted with eternal life!

Once born of God, there is no eternal condemnation awaiting this child. Scripture after scripture confirms the eternal , unconditional security of the "born again". One must study the "difficult" passages, which on the surface might appear to be contradictive, with this understanding in heart and then the truth of them will be clear.

James 1:5. If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering . For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

God Bless!

 

Thanks Steaver, your post is most encouraging, to know God never regrets His love!
O how I love the doctrine of Grace and eternal elction - no leave the "and", for Grace = eternal election. = the love of God.

But why don't you use Scripture's terminology and speak of Christ's return - His "second coming" as Christians will of course believe?

 

Steaver,

In Him,

Bob