In Jude, included in the description of those leading others astray, is the phrase in verse 12 “twice dead”. In Greek, this is a participle. Literally, it is “twice having died”. These men were still physically alive. How had they died twice? The answer is not difficult. We all die spiritually once. These men had “rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.” They had died twice, spiritually.
Bob, you should really take the time to study the passages you bring into this discussion in there entirety. Here is the folks Jude is speaking of.
“
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ .” (4)
Number one, these are
not Christians who die a second spiritual death. In fact,
all people are born spiritually dead at birth . This is why one "
must be born again "! Therefore if one were to spiritually die twice they would need to be born again twice. This can never happen.
Second, those “denying our Lord Jesus Christ” are
not Christians. Never were and according to this verse, never will be. They “
were before of old ordained to this condemnation ” “
ungodly men ”.
In 2 Peter 2, a chapter long noted for its striking similarities with Jude, Peter describes the false teachers as “Accursed children. Forsaking the right way, they have gone astray.” Were they still children of God? Yes. But they were “accursed children”.
No Bob, they were
not the children of God
ever . These are false teachers as well, who “
deny the Lord that bought them ”. And no, “bought them” does not mean they were saved at one time or Christ is their Lord (master, despot) but He could have been because He paid the price for their release from sin. They denied Him (renounced) and would not have anything to do with Him when they could have been saved.
As we can clearly see, it is not I who is misrepresenting the scriptures making false teachers and ungodly men the children of God. The scriptures clearly explain just how true children of God behave and produce fruit. It is strange to me that you cannot see the differences declared in scripture between the truly lost and the truly saved.
NAS 1 Timothy 4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
Again a misunderstanding of the content of Paul’s letter to Timothy. This letter is about
keeping and teaching sound doctrine .
2. Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
3. As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they
teach no other doctrine ,
4. Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.
5. Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
6. From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
7. Desiring to be teachers of the law;
understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm .
Departing from “the faith” is in reference to “sound doctrine” and not becoming lost again.
“Take heed unto thyself,
and unto the doctrine ; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.” (16)
Now before you assume that “save thyself” means that not “continuing in them” equates to a loss of salvation, remember that we cannot “save ourselves” as in eternal salvation. The “save” Paul is speaking of is saving oneself from following these “seducing spirits” into these false doctrinal positions. (Like believing you can lose eternal life
)
I believe what the Spirit explicitly says.
Do you? Always? And forever will? What if you one day decide to not believe the Spirit anymore? You cannot say for sure right now that next year you will still be saved, right? In fact, you cannot truthfully say that you have eternal life right now, correct? Because eternal means everlasting, but if it could end next year, then I guess it wasn’t ever
eternal then.
God Bless!
[ February 01, 2005, 10:28 PM: Message edited by: steaver ]
