The Catholic "Salvation"

Didn't anybody catch my math mistake ?
'O Lord it's Hard to be Humble !!

 

16 months times 66 divided by 12 months per year means that you've been married for 88 years. I take it that this was an arranged marriage that was performed the day you and your spouse were born?

 

Thanks for responding. I was afraid that no one was reading our thread here.

This is a Test!
This is a Test!



Singer

 

Sorry about my 5 posts, but it never looked like they were posting, but now(the next day) I see they are all there. There is a post now explaining that there is a glitch that is being worked on.

This post posted by faith alone!

Mike

 

The Catholic "Salvation" Thread

Born.....February 10, 2004 09:00 PM
Died.....February 17, 2004 08:44 PM CST

Accomplishments: NONE

 

Why does it have to die?

Mike

 

Singer...

Accomplishments none? How can you say that for sure?

We plant seeds, but we are not always around when God gives the increase.

But He did say "my word will not refurn to me void, but will accomplish that for which I have sent it".

Amen?

Mike

 

Mike,

The issues of Catholic Salvation have not been resolved between the opposing factions during this thread nor will they ever be resolved during the Church Age. Quite similar is the Israeli -Palestinian debate/conflict. It will never come to an end in this age. There will be no peace until the king of peace returns. In that sense, there has been no accomplishments in this thread, but you are right; God's word will not come back void. To that I say "Amen".

The Organized Catholics against Protestantism who claim no agendae have all fled..........have you noticed ?? Or maybe they're all practicing an early lent of giving up religious forums.

**My posting here conflicts with the mindset I must maintain to fellowship with the Catholics whom I've invited to our musical productions.
Many are good friends and charming people.......I really wonder if they absorb and believe all of their Catholic teachings. But.......I'm not going to ask them on the local level. They seem to handle the combined musical efforts quite well and in a good spirit and they don' speak forth rejection in our mixed-faith groupings.(Although I have not succeeded in gaining the Priest's attendance over the yeaers). It would not be in good taste for them to counter my words or those of any non-Catholic nature during a public sharing of music. (And vice-versa). In that sense, we are brothers in Christ for there IS only one God, one Faith and one Baptism, and that statement is not pointing to the Catholic or the Baptist Church, it is pointing to God Himself.........and my unchurched nature yet enjoys a growing Godly presence for which I am thankful.

Singer

 

quote: Good question though- where have all the Catholics gone?

Never say die!!....FREEDOMMMMM!....

Just trying to do my part....
Part of the reason may be that the topic has seemed to have gone nowhere may be in that both sides (I would say with Catholics in particular) can get frustrated at the lack of movement. Both sides firmly believe in what they believe, and once they have expressed it, that's it. For the most part.
So in the spirit of the upcoming Lenten season, I'll try to give my two cents worth and enter that desolate 40-day desert of unforgiving territory with an optimism befit a member of the Church Militant, as they come to grips with the imminency of being a member of the Church Victorious! In other words: I may be throwing myself to the lions! But there remains that "Christian optimism in the face of impending death".

To perhaps invigorate the discussion I would like to take some of the angst out of it and discuss (in hopefully a charitable way) some of the points of concern where we differ.

The first is in the definitions. If we can't agree on what it is we are discussing, how would we expect to understand each other in the first place?
I've been reading David Currie's book "Born Fundamentalist.. Born Again Catholic" and he (I think) did an adequate job of describing some of the differences between certain phrases, words and concepts in regard to salvation. I would like to share what he has written about the topic with an emphasis on the Catholic perspective of these words etc. and afterward lend perhaps my own, albeit limited and qualified opinions.
His own background included a fundamentalist upbringing: (his father was a preacher and both parents were teachers at Moody Bible Institute, he himself received a degree from Trinity International University and studied in the Masters of Divinity program at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School) He wrote this book as an explanation to his friends and family as to why he became Catholic.
Perhaps from there we can see where you (the Protestant listener) might agree or disagree.

(I apologize in advance at the length of this post. I will try to edit to the salient points.

Taken from "Born Fundamentalist ..Born Again Catholic by David B. Currie p.111-125 Ignatius Press
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"What I found initially is that there is a tremendous amount of confusion on both sides of the discussion about what Evangelicals and Catholics believe. Many Evangelicals will tell you that they believe that Christians are saved by faith. A few Catholics will tell you that they believe Christians are saved by works. Both are not only dead wrong, but both give inaccurate portrayals of their own theologies! Informed Evangelicals do not teach that we are saved by faith, and Catholics do not teach that we are saved by works.
Evangelical and Catholic theologies both accept as the starting tenet of soteriology (insert from Steve: the study of Christian salvation)that we are saved by grace ...This is not a point of disagreement between Catholics and Evangelicals. It is one of our glorious agreements!....None of us would have a chance at salvation but for the grace of God... We are saved by grace. Anyone who disagrees with this analysis is not looking at the facts.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church puts it this way: " Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification" (CCC 2010).

As with so many terms, grace as defined by Catholics is slightly different from grace as defined by Evangelicals...Evangelicals define grace by referring primarily to its origin in God: grace is "the free generosity of God through the self-giving of Christ ( The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible ) Catholics agree with this part of the Evangelical definition but go on to define how the grace of God affects us when we are touched by it: "any divine assistance given to persons in order to advance them toward their supernatural destiny of fellowship with God.... Grace transforms a person's nature" (Our Sunday Visitor's Catholic Encyclopedia ). Catholics will go even farther, distinquishing between sanctifying grace (supernatural life) and actual grace (supernatural aid).

But if we agree that we are saved "by" grace, "through" what are we saved? How does that grace of God become an active part of my life? That is the point at which Evangelicals and Catholics part company. We both call that part of the salvation process by its biblical term, justification. Justification prepares a Christian to meet a holy God in eternity. To phrase the question another way: "By" what are we justified?

Evangelicals define justification as an act of God whereby he declares the Christian righteous. It happens at one moment in time and is made possible by the Christian's faith alone ( sola fide , justification by faith alone).

Catholics teach that justification starts at a moment in time but continues throughout a Christian's life. Justification is made operative in one's life by both faith and works. Some Evangelicals seem to imply that Catholics do not see a place for faith in justification. This is an error. The problem that Catholics have with Protestant soteriology is not the claim that we are justified by faith but the claim that we are justified by faith alone . The "alone" sticks in the Catholic craw...
Catholics agree with Evangelicals that justification is by faith but not that it is by faith alone-works continue the justification after faith has begun it. catholics agree with Evangelicals that justification has a starting point at a moment in time but not that justification ends at that moment in time: it continues throughout life. some Evangelicals have likened Catholic justification to Evangelical justification and sanctification rolled up into one. A Catholic would respond that justification is not complete without complete sanctification: "Justification entails the sanctification of (man's) whole being" (CCC 1995).

... First, does Scripture indicate anywhere that works are essential for justification? If..so..it would strongly suggest that justification is more than just a momentary event. After all, works do take time...

.Scripture does clearly and emphatically teach that works are invlolved in the "by" of justification. The most obvious passage is in James:

What good is it, my brothers. if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds?...Faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead... You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?...Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his works were working together...You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. (James 2:14-26)

...the Greek word used by James is unmistakable. It is the identical technical term used by all the New Testament for justification. James said that a man is "justified by what he does".

..It is interesting to me how many Evangelicals handle this passage..They view it as a problem passage needing extensive explanation. This may be a reflection of an either-or mentality: that we must be justified by faith alone or by works alone. But neither James nor the Catholic Church claims justification comes by works alone. Justification is accomplished by faith coupled with works.

Our Sunday Visitor's Catholic Encyclopedia puts it this way:

Justification in the Catholic Tradition comes about by means of faith in Christ, and in a life of good works lived in response to God's invitation to believe...catholic Faith holds that faith without good works is not sufficient to merit justification, for good works show one's willingness to cooperate with the initiatives of grace... What is necessary for salvation is a faith that represents itself both externally through acts and internally through faith .

If that sounds familiar, reread James!

Most important, this is the gospel of Jesus. His ideal was that of a life of good works flowing outward from a vibrant inner faith. The parables of the wise and foolish builders (Mt 7:24-27), the two sons (Mt 21:28-32), the good Samaritan (Lk 10:25-37), the talents (Mt 25:14-30) the sheep and the goats (Mt 25:31-46), and others all teach a unity of faith and works for salvation. Father Mithell Pacwa, S.J., has made the point that the entire Sermon on the Mount is a discourse on Jesus's view of justification (justificationand righteousness have the same root in Greek): "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but onlyhe who does the will of my father who is in heaven" (Mt 7:21) How much more explicit could Jesus have been?"
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Allow me to create a separation of the content here as an invitation for comment and discussion. I will not however read anything until I've finished providing the points of topical interest from David's book..., which may still take me some time as I'm trying to work in between posts etc..

God Bless
Stephen

 

Stephen,

Regarding the "faith alone" problem, you(or the writer you are quoting) are articulting what the catholics on here say all the time. In other words, he sounds exactly like your basic, hiearchially *trained*, catholic apologist.

The writer seems to be saying that we(CCers and evangelicals) really are just saying the same thing, only the catholics are simply including in their justification explanation the works that naturally flow from out justification for the rest of our lives.

The point being that the evangelicals agree with that, so why the fuss?

The fuss is that although catholics may say it that way, to quiet us, they do not really mean it. If they meant it, then they would agree with us when we say...

"Yes, works flow from our justification, but we are only referring to justification in the sense of our standing before God. The complete justification that occures the instant we enter into a faith relationship with Christ. We are not referring to how our justification in the sense of how it plays out in our lives".

If what this writer is saying is so, they would then say "Oh. OK then, in that context we agree with you."

But they do not. They still argue that we are not justified through faith alone regarding our initial justification at the beginning of our christian walk.

That is a denial of the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

God bless,

Mike

 

That about sums it up.

Here's a couple more:

"Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in their graves will hear His voice and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of condemnation." John 5:28-29

(WHAT?!? Our eternal destiny is somehow based on what we do??? Doesn't Jesus know that works have nothing to do with salvation? )

"...in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgement of God, who 'will render to each one according to his deeds': eternal life to those who by patient continuence in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortalitly; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also for the Greek". Romans 2:5-9

(Whoa there, Paul--I thought what we "do" had nothing to do with salvation and where we will spend eternity . What are you talking about? Things just keep getting 'curiouser' and 'curiouser'...)

 

This is basic neo-orthodoxism--a heretical system of redefining Biblical terms. If the terms are not defined by the Bible, then what good are they? It is true that we must have a consensus on the definitions of the terms that we are using. But the definintions must be Biblical. They must have Scriptural definitions. Neo-orthodoxism was a heretical movement. For more see:
NEO-ORTHODOXY

DHK

 

If definitions must be "Biblical", where is the orthodox definition of the Trinity, for instance, specifically defined in the Bible? In fact, in the Nicene-Arian controversy, many (including the heretics) objected to the term homoousion ("of the same substance") because it couldn't be found in the Bible.

 

1John 5:7 in itself gives a fairly precise statement of the trinity. That verse suppported by many others which demonstrated that both Christ and the Holy Spirit are both deity and persons make it clear that there is only one God, and yet three persons.
DHK

 

The following is a continuation of my post above. Taken from the book by David B. Currie titled: Born Fundamentalist..Born Again Catholic, pgs. 116-125....


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" It is quite clear in Jesus' teaching that justification, and thus salvation, is accomplished in a unity of these two: faith and works. The whole process is made possible solely by grace. this is just what Catholic theology asserts......

Although it is impossible to look at all the pertinent verses, two verses that Evangelicals advance as refuting Catholicism should be examined: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-not by works , so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works" (Eph 2:8-10).
When I resigned from the Evangelical church where we had been members, I received a stinging letter quoting these verses. Evangelicals try to use this passage to prove that we are not saved by works. All a Catholic can do is agree! One of our glorious agreements is that we are not saved by works, we are saved by grace. That is what Paul is stating here. He is not pitting works against faith. The passage never tries to focus on the inner workings of justification. He is pitting works against grace (notice the use of the preposition "by", twice)! This verse says that we are saved by grace; that even the faith we have is a gracious gift; and that the works we do are nothing to boast of becaise they too are a gracious gift- "God's workmanship" in us. It is all grace through and through, from beginning to end. ..

Another verse commonly used against Catholics is Titus 3:5: "He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy."
Paul here is noting the motivation behind God's decision to provide for our salvation. Both Catholics and Evangelicals agree that there is nothing inus that would cause God to save us. It was pure mercy that caused him to pour out his grace on us. This verse does not deal at all with the "how" of justification, either.

It also might be helpful for Evangelicals to know that Catholics do not believe that our works are innately valuable. The same could be said of our faith. If either is valuable to God, it is only because he graciously decided to make it so. They are meritorious only because by grace God has connected them to the work of christ and the Cross. "Grace ...ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men." (CCC 2011). .. This is what Augustine meant when he said, "All our good merits are wrought through grace, so that God, in crowning our merits, is crowning nothing but his gifts." Our responsibility is to cooperate with God: "do not put out the Spirit's fire" (1 Th 5:19)....

...When one starts with the gospel of Jesus, I believe it is inevitable that a catholic view of salvation will be developed. We are saved by grace, justified by faith and works. Separate the faith from the works, and it dies. We can take no credit for our salvation, because bboth the faith and the works are a result of God's grace being operative in our lives....

the emphasis on justification by faith and works makes a tremendous practical difference. ordinary Catholics tend to be less cerebral in their faith because the need for works involves more action. Evangelicals sometimes think of salvation as a kind of quiz. Get the right answer and you're in! They ask people, "When you die, and Jesus asks you at the gates of heaven, 'Why should I let you into my heaven?' What will you say?" What a question! Jesus nowhere implies that judgement will be a quiz in which the correct answer gets you in and the wrong one forces you out.... Entrance to heaven is preceded by a judgement: a judgement of what we have done in our lives. The criterion in every judgement scene in the New Testament is works: "Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my father" (Mt 7:21; see also Jn 5, Mt 23, Rev 22, and 1 Cor 3).

....
The emphasis on continual justification by "graceful works" also affects our view of conversion. Evangelicals make certain that they experience a conversion at some point in their lives. for the rest of their lives they will point back to that conversion as the day they were "born again", or "saved". Their eternal destiny is secured.

Catholics believe in an initial conversion but also that we must continually be conveerted...

This is not to say that there may not come major turning points in a Catholic Christian's commitment. Francis of assis had a major conversion at the beginning of his adulthood. He was, however, already a Christian. He continued to have daily conversions throughout the rest of his life. Thomas Aquinas wrote and lectured on Christian theology his whole life. He was a christian of towering intellect, faith and spirituality. Yet, tpward the end of his life he had a major conversion....

So what role do works play in our justification? They put faith into concrete, physical action. We are not like fallen angels. Because angels do not have physical bodies, when they fell they were instantly and thoroughly damnable. But we have bodies linked to our soirits. we can desire something at the spiritual level of our beings but fail to accomplish it at the the physical level. The role of works is to develope our characters souls, wills) so that the physical side of us is eventually made to be in harmony with our spiritual desires. This can take a lifetime. In the process, we expand our in order to become more Christlike. Our faith does not just cover up our rebellious wills so that we can slip into heaven. Our faith makes us want to work at reforming ourselves into Christ's image. When we are "perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect" (Mt 5:48), then we are ready for heaven....

Catholics speak of heaven as our hope. Evangelicals prefer to speak of knowing that one is saved. Although Scripture uses both terminologies, actually Catholics are using the more common biblical language. Faith, hope and charity are the three virtues of 1 Corinthians 13:13. Our hope is in Christ.and his promise of heaven: "We wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is not hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? But if we hope for what we don not yet have, we wait patiently" (Rom 8:23-25). Catholic literature describes our hope as a "certain confidence".
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There is much more to this chapter but I will await some responses and see if any of the other topics touched with in the chapter are brought up.

God Bless
Stephen

 

DHK,
I love that verse. Too bad many modern Bibles leave it out (and I'm not a KJV-Onlyist!) However, that verse can be interpreted by Oneness Pentcostals (who deny the Trinity) as three "roles" in one person rather than three consubstantial persons in one being. However, I agree with you that this verse together with all the other verses support the orthodox Nicene faith as opposed to either Sabellius and Arius. I just wanted to point out the key term, homoousion, like the word "Trinity" itself, cannot be found in the Bible.

 

posted by Stephen:

When one starts with the Bible I believe it is inevitable that the Bible view of salvation will be developed. We are saved by grace through faith, and that not of works (Eph.2:8,9). Works have no part in God's work of salvation.
DHK