The Catholic "Salvation"

[Singer]

Mike and Grace,

I think you pretty well ironed out the issues that arose during my absence. Ending up at a dead-end conversation isn't anything new to any of us

It would seem that the statement issued by the Vatican that "there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church" has given it fits of frustration for years. They should know better. It has caused their members to attempt to deny that it should be taken for face value. Again what has happened is that Catholics are going to great lengths to impress non-Catholics that there is no difference between their practices. For a person to become convinced of such a thing would also allow that person to realize there is nothing special about the Cahtolic system either.

Thus, no benefit to being a Catholic.

We'd expect the Catholic to then come back and claim that there IS a benefit to being Catholic; but it is evidently not a big enough one to justify the statement that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.

Of course C. Weber would have to change his mind too about losing his salvation if he ever left the Church.

Yet this takes us back to the input we've had about all those statements only applying to Catholics.

So the trick is to.... Never become Catholic !!!

Singer

 

[Brother Adam]

And it is my hope one day that you read the entire section through and through it dawns on you what the statement means and you go "Oooohhh, I get it".

After all, St. James does say, word for word "Salvation is not by faith"

 

[D28guy]

BrotherAdam,

You said...

"After all, St. James does say, word for word "Salvation is not by faith"

Thats right, and it is exceedingly important that we take scripture in context, and we make sure our view of it causes that one scripture, in that one place, to blend in with the entirety of scripture, rather than have that one scripture cancel out the clear teaching of multitudes upon multitudes of scriptures all through the word of God that say completly the opposite.

Its a very elementary thing. Sort of "understanding truth", so to speak.

God bless,

Mike

 

[Brother Adam]

Originally posted by D28guy:
[QB] BrotherAdam,

You said...

"After all, St. James does say, word for word "Salvation is not by faith"

Thats right, and it is exceedingly important that we take scripture in context, and we make sure our view of it causes that one scripture, in that one place, to blend in with the entirety of scripture, rather than have that one scripture cancel out the clear teaching of multitudes upon multitudes of scriptures all through the word of God that say completly the opposite.

Exactly my point. Remember that scripture never contradicts itself. Don't try to hide from verses that seem hard in favor of John 3:16. It does indeed all go together in perfect, and amazing harmony.

Its a very elementary thing. Sort of "understanding truth", so to speak.

The concept is elementary, I absolutely agree. What I don't get then is the firm and ever abounding insistance by several anti-Catholics to continuly do the same "chopping" technique to the Catachism and other Catholic documents. If something is wrong, show it to be wrong for what it is. Ya' know?

 

[D28guy]

BrotherAdam,

"Exactly my point. Remember that scripture never contradicts itself. Don't try to hide from verses that seem hard in favor of John 3:16. It does indeed all go together in perfect, and amazing harmony."

Not if that verse in James is mis-taught to cancel out the truth of the scriptures that we are justified through faith alone.

"Its a very elementary thing. Sort of "understanding truth", so to speak."

I actually left part of that out

It was supposed to say "Sort of "understanding truth 101", so to speak." Regardless, you got my drift and said...

"The concept is elementary, I absolutely agree. What I don't get then is the firm and ever abounding insistance by several anti-Catholics to continuly do the same "chopping" technique to the Catachism and other Catholic documents. If something is wrong, show it to be wrong for what it is. Ya' know?"

I usually will not post something on a whim. And I try to make sure its not one little thing taken out of context. I want to be sure that the whole of Catholic theology supports my claim.

As an example, the denial of the truth that we are justified through faith alone is overwhelmingly found in CC theology, and universally denied by catholic apologists.

The exceeding problem of Mary worship in the Catholic church is not something being done over in a corner somewhere, it is out in the open and blatant. They dont call it worship, but the evidence is overwhelming.

The denial of the truth that the scriptures are our only authoritatove truth source is overwhelming. Catholics seem to get a sort of *glee* out of denying that truth.

I dont major on the minors, I major on the majors!

God bless,

Mike

[ February 16, 2004, 04:42 AM: Message edited by: D28guy ]

 

[Brother Adam]

Not if that verse in James is mis-taught to cancel out the truth of the scriptures that we are justified through faith alone.

Thank you for making an example of my example

As an example, the denial of the truth that we are justified through faith alone is overwhelmingly found in CC theology, and universally denied by catholic apologists.

For as much fun as we make of the French, the French could easily make fun of our language. It is on the whole inadaquate to support the needs of theology. The way many Baptists define "faith alone" was said to be wholy inadequate to be a disciple of Jesus Christ. I firmly believe that faith involves four fundamental and scriptural principles: Belief, Trust, Commitment, and Obedience.

The exceeding problem of Mary worship in the Catholic church is not something being done over in a corner somewhere, it is out in the open and blatant. They dont call it worship, but the evidence is overwhelming.

Catholics don't worship Mary, and the evidence is not overwhelming.

The denial of the truth that the scriptures are our only authoritatove truth source is overwhelming. Catholics seem to get a sort of *glee* out of denying that truth.

Doesn't leave much room for your pastor then...since he isn't an authoritative source for truth, I would start a petition to have him removed. He is likely up there under the impression he is speaking truth.

I dont major on the minors, I major on the majors!

Good.

 

[D28guy]

Brother Adam,

I said...

"As an example, the denial of the truth that we are justified through faith alone is overwhelmingly found in CC theology, and universally denied by catholic apologists."

And you said...

"For as much fun as we make of the French, the French could easily make fun of our language. It is on the whole inadaquate to support the needs of theology. The way many Baptists define "faith alone" was said to be wholy inadequate to be a disciple of Jesus Christ. I firmly believe that faith involves four fundamental and scriptural principles: Belief, Trust, Commitment, and Obedience."

Thats fine, but unfortunetly you are changing subjects on me.

I said...

"As an example, the denial of the truth that we are justified through faith alone is overwhelmingly found in CC theology,..."

And you said...

"I firmly believe that faith involves four fundamental and scriptural principles: Belief, Trust, Commitment, and Obedience"

You were referring to faith in general...I was referring to faith only in the context of our justification before God. In that context we are justified through faith alone. In your larger context, I agree completly with what you posted.

"Catholics don't worship Mary, and the evidence is not overwhelming."

I'm afraid it is. This is just the proverbial "tip of the iceberg"...(bolding mine)...


A Catholic dictionary begins its definition of altar thusly: The table or block upon which sacrifice is made. It is the place where the Sacrifice of the Mass is
offered… -- Albert J. Nevins, Ed., The Maryknoll Catholic Dictionary, © 1965 The Maryknoll Fathers, p. 25

The Catechism, in the section called “Where Is The Liturgy Celebrated?,” the significance of the altar in Catholic worship is described in these words: 1182. The altar of the New Covenant is the Lord's Cross, from which the sacraments of the Paschal mystery flow. On the altar, which is the center of the church, the sacrifice of the Cross is made present under sacramental signs. The altar is also the table of the Lord, to which the People of God are invited. In certain Eastern liturgies, the altar is also the symbol of the tomb (Christ truly died and is truly risen). - Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2nd Edition, © 1994,1997, United States Catholic Conference, Inc., p. 306

Based on the above, it seems accurate to consider the altar to be the place toward which all eyes are focused during the most important moments Catholic celebration of the Mass. It is, as the Catechism informs, “is the center of the church.” Given the significance of the altar in Catholic worship and the role it plays in what Catholicism calls the Sacrifice of the Mass, I find it interesting that Pope Pius XII should have referred to altars dedicated to Mary in a prayer he spoke in Rome’s Basilica of Santa Maria Maggiore oon the Feast of the Assumption in 1950:

"Enraptured by the splendour of your heavenly beauty and impelled by the anxieties of the world we cast ourselves into your arms, O immaculate mother of Jesus, and our mother Mary, confident of finding in you our most loving heart, and your most loving heart, the appeasement of our ardent desire and a safe harbour from the tempest which besets us on every side. Though degraded by our faults and overwhelmed by infinite misery we adore and praise the purest richness of the sublime gifts with which God has filled you above every other mere creature. From the moment of your conception until the day in which, after your assumption into heaven, he crowned you Queen of the Universe. Crystal fountain of faith, bathe our minds with eternal truths, fragrant lily of all holiness, captivate our hearts with your heavenly perfume. O conqueress of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin which makes the soul detestable to God and a slave of hell. O well beloved of God, hear the ardent cries which rise up from every heart in this year dedicated to you. Bend tenderly, O Mary, over our aching wounds. Convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and the oppressed, comfort the poor and the humble, quench hatred, sweeten harshness, safeguard the flower of purity and protect the holy church. In your name, resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognise that they are all brothers. Receive, O most sweet mother, our humble supplication above all obtained for us, that on that day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymn which is sung today around your altars. You are all beautiful, O Mary, you are the glory, you are the joy, you are the honour of our people."

I do not doubt that most Catholics would deny that the Pope’s prayer in any way suggests that Catholics worship Mary. However, I invite the reader to consider the words highlighted in red.

we cast ourselves into your arms--Speaking for all Catholics, the Pope is looking to Mary for “the appeasement of our ardent desire and a safe harbour from the tempest which besets us on every side.”

Christians, upon reading these words, might ask why the Pope did not cast himself and all Catholics into the arms of Jesus. I will call upon the LORD, who is worthy to be praised: so shall I be saved from mine enemies. -- Psalms 18:3

we adore and praise - In the name of all Catholics, the Pope spoke of adoring and praising the richness (a quality) of the gifts (created things) bestowed upon Mary (a created being). Jesus Christ said: Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. -- Matthew 4:10

your assumption into heaven - On the Day of Pentecost following His resurrection, our risen Lord ascended into Heaven to take his place at the right hand of the Father. The Old Testament tells us that two of the Hebrew prophets, Elijah and Enoch were assumed into Heaven while still living (2 Kings 2:11; Hebrews 11:5). Some of the church fathers doubted or denied that Mary died (tradition with a little “T”), arguing that she was immune from original sin and, therefore, not subject to death. Others of the fathers, however, held that Mary died in fact, but add in the wonderful linguistic acrobatics of the RCC that she did not incur the debt of death.(Tradition with a big “T”). (Pietro Parente, Antonio Piolanti & Salvatore Gaofalo, Dictionary of Dogmatic Theology, 1st English Edition, Assumption of the Blessed Virgin, © 1951 The Bruce Publishing Company, p. 23). When Pope Pius XII defined the dogma of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary, he tiptoed a narrow verbal path that made it possible to argue either Mary’s death or non-death, should the winds of opinion change at some time in the future: Accordingly, after We directed Our prayers in supplication to God again and again, and invoked the light of the Spirit of Truth, for the glory of Almighty God, who lavishes His special benevolence on the Virgin mary, for the honor of her Son, the immortal King of the Ages and the victor over sin and death, for the increasing glory of the same august Mother, and for the joy and exultation of the whole Church, by the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ, of the Blessed Apostles, Peter and Paul, and by Our own authority We pronounce, declare, and define that the dogma was revealed by God, that the Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, after completing her course of life upon earth was assumed to the glory of heaven both in body and soul. Therefore, if anyone, which may God forbid, should dare either to deny this, or voluntarily call into doubt what has been defined by Us, he should realize that he has cut himself off entirely from the divine and Catholic faith. - Pius XII, Munificentissimus Deus, Apostolic Constitution, promulgated November 1, 1950, Denzinger 2333

Let’s see now. The Scriptures tell us that we are saved by grace through faith alone in Christ alone. The Catholic Church agrees, then stipulates that in order to be saved, one must be in subjection to the Catholic Pope and must assent in faith to the dogma of Mary’s bodily assumption, among other things. The Pope went on to refer to the Catholic version of Mary by names that seemed intended to closely match some of the names by which Christ was referred to in the Scriptures

Queen of the Universe - This is, I suppose, Catholicism’s title for Mary to parallel Christ’s titles of King of Kings.(1 Timothy 6:15), Head over all things (Ephesians 1:22) and Lord of All (Acts 10:36; Romans 10:12).

fragrant lily of all holiness - Compares, I suppose, to Christ’s names Holy One of God ((Luke 4:34) and Lily of the valleys (Song of Songs 2:1)

conqueress of evil and death - Christ already has conquered death by His glorious Resurrection, and we know from Bible prophecy that He will finally conquer evil for all time when He casts Satan and those who follow him into the fiery lake. (Revelation 20). What evil and death has the Catholic Mary conquered? After Jesus judges at the Great White Throne, evil and death will no exist. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. - Revelation 20:11-15

Convert the wicked -- On a roll, Pius XII then entreated the Catholic Mary to do what the Scriptures expressly state that only God can do: Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building. According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. -- 1 Corinthians 3:5-11

The pope closed his prayer to the Catholic goddess with another supplication that mentions her throne in Heaven and her altars here on earth. If we are to believe the definitions for altar quoted above, then one must wonder what sacrifices are being made on Mary’s altars here on earth, and who is being worshipped at them if not her.

I have been told by a number of Catholic apologists that Catholics do not pray to saints but through them to God. Well, if the use of the second person singular in addressing the Catholic Mary in such prayers as Hail Holy Queen, Hail Mary, etc., aren’t indicative of praying to Mary, certainly the words of Pius XII are. While there still is time, turn away from the false doctrines and false gods of Catholicism and seek Christ in the Scriptures. Only by faith in Him can you be saved. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. -- Ephesians 2:8-10


Very sadly,

Mike

 

[Singer]

Mike,

Thanks for bringing that prayer by pope Pius to the forefront. It's just one more Catholic publication that causes their followers to have to deny that he also meant what we supposedly misrepresent them to believe.

Now isn't that sweet; "O conqueress of evil and death" .(In reference to Mary).

Of course I took that out of context

and they could not possibly meant to have referred to Mary as the conqueror of death.

Again I ask..."Why would someone even take a chance at producing such a statement"? Maybe it was never meant for non-Catholic eyes!!

But we may never hear a Catholic on this thread who will try to defend that statement. They'll twist it around like the "accepting Jesus at an altar call" triviality.

Oh well; when we don't expect much clarification anyhow, we're never disappointed.

Singer

 

[Singer]

I firmly believe that faith involves
four fundamental and scriptural principles: Belief, Trust, Commitment, and Obedience."

I don't.

The last three take time to apply and require action. Faith produces commitment and obedience but doesn't require them for salvation to take place.

Rom 10:10 "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth
confession is made unto salvation."

Trusting the Lord both precedes and follows that action but commitment to works or obedience to some doctrine is not required for salvation.

Singer

 

[Singer]

Grace,

Look at that statement again:

Nowhere in Scripture does one become born again by "accepting Jesus Christ as your personal
Saviour" at an altar call. You are born again of water and Spirit (Jn 3:5

You say I'm misquoting him by taking out the "at an altar call". He is not disputing WHERE the accepting was taking place, but he was disputing the method itself. He denied that "born again" could happen by accepting Jesus Christ and suggested that "You are born again of water and Spirit".

You, for one, should know Catholics teach that baptism saves.

If you're going to counter the statement, at least try to understand what the issues are.

Singer

 

[thessalonian]

"I was referring to faith only in the context of our justification before God. In that context we are justified through faith alone. "

I ask the following questions with regard to Protestantism:

So, how are children below the age of reason justified? Do they need justification or do they not need Jesus to get to heaven? Are there two paths of salvatoin, one for adults and one for children? Or do children who have not accepted Jesus go to hell?

 

[BobRyan]

To him that knows to do right - and does it not - to him it is sin. (James 4:17)

All mankind is possessed with a sinful nature (child or not, Mary or not) and all are in need of a Savior from sin.

Fortunately we "have one". In the case of infants - they are covered by Christ until they are able to make a free-will "choice" by responding to the "Drawing of all mankind" John 12:32 by God.

When the day comes that they are "Able" to respond to that drawing - if they "choose not to" -- then they are lost - if they respond then they participate in the John 3 "Born again" experience.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Brother Adam]

Originally posted by Singer:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I firmly believe that faith involves
four fundamental and scriptural principles: Belief, Trust, Commitment, and Obedience."

I don't.

The last three take time to apply and require action. Faith produces commitment and obedience but doesn't require them for salvation to take place.

Rom 10:10 "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth
confession is made unto salvation."

Trusting the Lord both precedes and follows that action but commitment to works or obedience to some doctrine is not required for salvation.

Singer </font>[/QUOTE]yet we know that simple intellectual assent or trust doesn't garuntee salvation as we see time and again through example. We see people getting saved over and over again in Reformed churches, responding to alter calls time and again. This speaks to scripture when it tells us that any action we are capable of doing is solely of God.

We know, because Christ tells us, that someone who lacks any of those four essentials, is not his disciple. Faith produces good deeds and faith is a way of life as we often describe Christianity as our "faith". Obedience and commitment remain and intricate and necessary part of faith. An initial "trust in Jesus Christ as my personal savior" is not where faith comes to an end. Entering into new life is instantaneous, faith must remain in the process of santification.

If someone claims faith, but the evidence is not there, we are told, the faith is dead. The only spiritually dead state, according to scripture, is that of a severed relationship with God.

 

[BobRyan]

Right - James 2 tells us of that dead faith.

Christ speaks about it in Matt 7 "Not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven -- but he who DOES..."

In Romans 2 Paul makes the point "it is not the hearers of the Law that are just before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL BE Justified"

However in Romans 10 we see that the FIRST act of "obedience" is simply "confessing with our mouth" and the "Result is salvation" according to the text.

So the early works - the first works - are very simple and they DO evidence "living faith" and as Romans 10 says they "result in salvation".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[dumbox1]

Hi Singer,

Just popping online to say I haven't forgotten I owe you a post!

(Wallpaper???.....haven't you learned how to get out of housework yet) ??

Well, I'm still a newlywed, practically. (16 happy months!)

Mark

 

[Singer]

Originally posted by Mark H.:
Hi Singer,

Just popping online to say I haven't forgotten I owe you a post!

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />(Wallpaper???.....haven't you learned how to get out of housework yet) ??

Well, I'm still a newlywed, practically. (16 happy months!)

Mark </font>[/QUOTE]Thanks, Mark.
I'm a newlywed too....I've been married 16 months; 66 times to the same woman.

 

[D28guy]

Whew, I'm an old timer!

Been blessed/married for 84 months.

Mike

 

[Singer]

No, I'm the oldtimer.

Mine is 16 times 66.

That's over 1000 months.

Five grandkids and two on the way.

Singer

 

[Singer]

Originally posted by Gina L:
Hey there Singer. I understand where you're coming from. A church I was in for a while (actually prior to believing in Jesus) refused to baptize for the reasons you're stating. They weren't just mildly against baptizing though, they made it a major issue.
I found I disagreed with them, and that baptism wasn't something outdated, especially as it was done by our Lord. (baptized with water and the Spirit). I believe it to be an act of obedience, one that is holy, and one that should be done IMMEDIATELY for a new Christian. It does appear that when we are baptized with water we are baptized with the Holy Spirit. That doesn't mean the indwelling didn't occur already, but this *appears* to be an extra measure, one that will help prevent the "good seeds sewn in our hearts from being plucked away".
Don't test me on this. LOL It's something I've felt but never really wanted to study up until now, because my daughter wants to be baptized and I don't feel that issue has been sufficiently dealt with by others because it's taken too lightly. I remember too well my own baptism experience, and how wondefully it differed from the false baptism into the false belief of mormonism. I just didn't get wet so people could figure out I was along with them for the ride, (not to discount the witness it is, but I'm making a point here), something HAPPENED and I knew it happend. I went into freezing cold water on a freezing cold day (we were outside, it was late April) and by all means all I should have been doing was trying not to die of hypothermia but from the moment I stepped in it was just...different. When I came up out of that water I remember just looking up, trying to see what that was, and it took a while before I could speak. I was in awe of what just happened. Trust me, no woman goes and walks through frog eggs in a freezing cold pond, gets soaked, comes back out of it and calls it a holy moment if something unnatural didn't happen to her!

I do plan to do more study on it, but I truly don't believe that Christ's example for us in being baptized in water, or the example he allowed to be set for us through his apostles can be dismissed.
In my experience though, doing it in a false church really is just getting wet!
Gina

Gina,
I enjoyed your post and hear what you're saying. On the other hand, I don't see how baptism in water could baptize us with the Holy Spirit. Some believe that our choice to accept the Lord is what brings the H.S., others say it is water baptism. I went a step further and asked for clarification of the baptism of the Holy Spirit issue that caused another reaction. I may share this with you in the future.

As for Mormonism, my son-in-law is an inactive member and from our visits and his example, it seems there is more faith at work in his life than that of some devout Evangelical or Catholic churchgoers that I'm acquainted with.

That might bring us to the issue of what "having the Son" means and how the Son is obtained. As I stated earlier from Rom 10:10, belief and faith are what brings justification and salvation. God wouldn't withhold his spirit from an inactive Mormon or a Catholic because it's the heart that does the seeking and God would surely overlook what name was on the signpost in the churchyard.

Thanks for being kind,; Adam and Mark think I'm a super guy myself..!!!

Singer

 

[D28guy]

Singer,

"No, I'm the oldtimer.

Mine is 16 times 66.

That's over 1000 months.

Five grandkids and two on the way."

Ahhh. I didnt catch that the 1st time. Many "arrows in your quiver", oh aged one!

Mike