A sincere question for Catholics

3AngelsMom · Jun 23, 2003

John,

That works for children and retarded people who are raised in church, like my kids. They pray every day, think of their actions before they do them (sometimes), in reflection of what Jesus would want them to do, and they show remorse. This is because they have been taught by myself, my husband, and their Sabbath School teachers, what the Bible says.

I think Kathryn and I have both narrowed it down to Jesus knowing what we have learned, and to what extent we have a knowledge of Christ, and the nature of sin. He knows what we know, and knows our response to it.

So, as far as kids and retards who have grown up in church, I would still say that until they are of an age that they can fully understand the weight of the consequences of sin, in this life and in eternity, they are not accountable for that sin. As far as the retards, they will most likely never understand regardless of their upbringing.

So if those children DIE as children, never having come to an age of understanding, will undoubtably go to heaven in the resurrection. Those who were never able to, regardless of when they died, will also go to heaven.

God Bless,
Kelly

neal4christ · Jun 23, 2003

My point is, if a man has no knowledge of sin, then he is still spiritually ALIVE, because it is SIN that kills.

And my point is that men are without excuse.

In Christ,
Neal

3AngelsMom · Jun 23, 2003

Originally posted by neal4christ:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> My point is, if a man has no knowledge of sin, then he is still spiritually ALIVE, because it is SIN that kills.

And my point is that men are without excuse.

In Christ,
Neal [/QUOTE]I guess it would have been better if I specified.

It is PAULS point, under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, that if a man does not know the law, then his actions are not sin. When the law comes, and man knows that he is sinning, then when he sins, he DIES.

Thanks for the effort though.

Man is without excuse, if he KNOWS that sin is sin, and then WILLFULLY does it.

God Bless,
Kelly

neal4christ · Jun 23, 2003

It is PAULS point, under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, that if a man does not know the law, then his actions are not sin.

Yes, I misspoke as well. It is PAUL'S point, under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, that men are without excuse.

God Bless You,
Neal

P.S. Could you point me to the teaching that ignorance is bliss?

Kathryn · Jun 23, 2003

So, are you saying Neil, that being a baby, or small child, or retarded is no excuse and these will be condemned? If they will be saved, on what basis?

God Bless

John Gilmore · Jun 23, 2003

Not without the faith and not without the word!

But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. Gal. 3:22

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17

[ June 23, 2003, 08:55 PM: Message edited by: John Gilmore ]

Ray Berrian · Jun 23, 2003

Kathryn,

King David's illegitimate son went to heaven the day of his death. He did not have faith and neither did he have the the Books of Moses lain beside him in his swaddling clothes. He may have received the mark of the covenant in his body. David said, 'He cannot come to me, but I will go to be with him.' David, who was of the lineage that produced our Savior seemed to believe that his son was with Christ. All minors and those who lose their lives to an abortionist go into the Presence of Jesus Christ.

Kathryn · Jun 23, 2003

John:

We may not be able see the faith of children or of the retarded but surely the Holy Spirit works through His Word and Sacraments to create faith.

So you are saying that children all over the world and retarded have faith given to them by the Holy Spirit through His Word and Sacraments. What do you think happens to it? When would they lose it. A Hindu’s child has faith in Jesus Christ until what age about? A Baptist’s child has this faith in Jesus Christ until what age? I suppose it is some sort of faith that can be lost. How can that be saving faith?

God Bless

Carson Weber · Jun 23, 2003

Here's another question..

If we are only saved through Christ and if once saved always saved, then how can the two propositions be true at the same time:

(1) All humans before the Age of Reason are going to Heaven because they are saved in Christ.
(2) There are individuals beyond the Age of Reason who go to hell.

The other option is that those who populate heaven are only those who have made a conscious decision for Christ, having grown beyond the Age of Reason; therefore, there are no humans in heaven who died before the Age of Reason.

The above logical propositions require: (1) That salvation can be lost by those infants who are supposedly saved [in Christ] automatically or (2) Those infants who die before the Age of Reason are incorporated into Christ by a means other than a conscious decision (i.e. infant baptism) or (3) All infants are immaculately conceived and are not in need of salvation or (4) All those who die before they reach the Age of Reason have no prospect of entering heaven.

Think about it, especially in light of Psalm 51:5, "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

Kathryn · Jun 23, 2003

Ray:

King David's illegitimate son went to heaven the day of his death. He did not have faith and neither did he have the the Books of Moses lain beside him in his swaddling clothes. He may have received the mark of the covenant in his body. David said, 'He cannot come to me, but I will go to be with him.' David, who was of the lineage that produced our Savior seemed to believe that his son was with Christ. All minors and those who lose their lives to an abortionist go into the Presence of Jesus Christ.

This isn't scriptural support for all children go to heaven.

I agree that Jesus Christ in his mercy can make exceptions and give his saving Grace to these babies, aborted fetuses, and retarded adults and those who through no fault of their own have not heard the true gospel. We don't know for sure however, because the word of God doesn't tell us this is so.

Jesus can read the thoughts and intentions of their heart and as judge can grant His mercy from His merits on the cross. If He can through mercy give His grace, why do we say he somehow can not or is limited in giving his grace to someone who was ignorant of the gospel? I believe this is best left up to Jesus Christ as the judge of all.

God Bless

[ June 23, 2003, 11:27 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]

3AngelsMom · Jun 24, 2003

Originally posted by neal4christ:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> It is PAULS point, under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, that if a man does not know the law, then his actions are not sin.

Yes, I misspoke as well. It is PAUL'S point, under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, that men are without excuse.

God Bless You,
Neal

P.S. Could you point me to the teaching that ignorance is bliss? [/QUOTE]

Funny guy you. How have you been? How's the wife?

Please tell me that you know which passage I was referencing. I almost quoted it word for word.

See Romans 7.

Bless you,
Kelly

3AngelsMom · Jun 24, 2003

Please don't turn this thread into an infant baptism thread.

That topic is SORELY worn out.

Thanks

John Gilmore · Jun 24, 2003

Originally posted by Kathryn:
So you are saying that children all over the world and retarded have faith given to them by the Holy Spirit through His Word and Sacraments. What do you think happens to it? When would they lose it. A Hindu’s child has faith in Jesus Christ until what age about? A Baptist’s child has this faith in Jesus Christ until what age? I suppose it is some sort of faith that can be lost. How can that be saving faith?

The Holy Spirit only works through the Word to create faith. So the Hindu child or adult who has never heard the gospel does not have faith. The Baptist child or adult may have faith through the hearing of the word. A child or adult baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost has saving faith unless he has rejected his Baptismal faith given by the Holy Ghost and, instead, is trusting in his own merits or the merits of someone else other than Christ for salvation.

The Athanasian Creed does not make exceptions:

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith.

[ June 24, 2003, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: John Gilmore ]

Ray Berrian · Jun 24, 2003

Kathryn,

Kathryn said, 'This isn't scriptural support for all children go to heaven.'

Ray is saying, 'I thought you were a person who cherished His Word, the Bible. This passage is most clear and gives us safe and ample reason to believe that those who die before the age of Reason, will go immediately into the Presence of Christ. Select your own translation. The New Century version says, 'But now that the baby is dead, why should I go without food? I can't bring him back to life. Some day I will go to him, but he cannot come back to me.'

I agree that Jesus Christ in his mercy can make exceptions and give his
saving Grace to these babies, aborted fetuses, and retarded adults and
those who through no fault of their own have not heard the true gospel. We
don't know for sure however, because the word of God doesn't tell us this is
so.

Ray is saying you are wrong and this explanation out of David's life is not even a stretch.

Jesus can read the thoughts and intentions of their heart and as judge can
grant His mercy from His merits on the cross.

Ray agrees with your above statement.

If He can through mercy give His grace, why do we say he somehow can not or is limited in giving his grace to someone who was ignorant of the gospel?

I again agree with you. There is some indication that those who have never heard the Gospel may receive a special dispensation from Christ. Scripture that seems to suggest this I cannot find at the moment. When I come across my note I will get back to you.

I believe this is best left up to Jesus Christ as the judge of all.

Ray-'You are right about this too. Note: [John 5:22b]

Best regards to you and yours.

Kathryn · Jun 24, 2003

Ray, the reason that passage is not scriptural support for all children go to heaven is that this would have been a circumcised child.

God Bless

Ray Berrian · Jun 24, 2003

Kathryn,

This mark on the body was a stigmata of a covenant relationship with God toward the Israelite people. God could care less whether a baby had this or not. Notice, Galatians 5:1-4 a & b] Jesus will take care of all babies and children until the age of Reason. Did He not say, 'Let the little children come unto Me, and forbid them not, for of such is the Kingdom of God?

Kathryn · Jun 24, 2003

John:

The Athanasian Creed does not make exceptions:
quote:

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith.

No, the creed does not make exceptions, but God can. God’s mercy is not limited by our creeds. He is free to grant his grace and mercy as he chooses.

The Holy Spirit only works through the Word to create faith. So the Hindu child or adult who has never heard the gospel does not have faith. The Baptist child or adult may have faith through the hearing of the word. A child or adult baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost has saving faith unless he has rejected his Baptismal faith given by the Holy Ghost and, instead, is trusting in his own merits or the merits of someone else other than Christ for salvation.

As far as Baptist babies and infants may be justified by faith because they hear the word of God, and Hindu children go to hell because thy have not heard the gospel. Is this really what you are saying? When is this saving faith lost? You are saying babies in the womb go to hell if they die before their ears develop the ability to hear. So, a deaf child or person never is justified because they can not hear the word?

The Christian baby already being justified by faith because his parents read the bible to him in the womb discounts scripture which says: "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

Jesus Christ is the judge of all. He knows who His brothers and sisters are, and is not limited by our creeds or our understanding:
“For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.” Hebrews 4:12

Jesus Christ gave his Great Commission to His church to baptize all nations, and teach all he has commanded. Any who are not within this New Covenant are left to His mercy and grace.

God Bless

Kathryn · Jun 24, 2003

Ray:

This mark on the body was a stigmata of a covenant relationship with God toward the Israelite people. God could care less whether a baby had this or not. Notice, Galatians 5:1-4 a & b] Jesus will take care of all babies and children until the age of Reason. Did He not say, 'Let the little children come unto Me, and forbid them not, for of such is the Kingdom of God?

Circumcision was the mark of the Old Covenant. You say, "God could care less whether a baby had this or not." The baby you are saying went right to heaven was an Old Testament Covenant child. God did care.

"Let the little children come unto Me, and forbid them not, for of such is the Kingdom of God." Scripture also says, "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." Jesus Christ is including these children in the New Covenant sealed by baptism. Jesus Christ is saying not to forbid them to come to him. Denying them baptism is doing just this.

God still cares about the "mark" in the New Covenant. Denying God's grace to children, is not in God's plan.

God Bless

[ June 24, 2003, 01:42 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]

DHK · Jun 24, 2003

Originally posted by DHK:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?
Who then is righteous?
How does one become righteous?

Our 'righteousness' is as filthy rags. The only righteousness we could have is to be in Christ, and claim HIS righteousness. A person who is NOT a Christian, ie they are not in Christ, will not have the ability to claim the righteousness of Christ for themselves, and therefore will still be all of those things those verses mention. AND NOT elegible for the Kingdom of God.

Jesus is the ONLY Way. THE ONLY.

Click to expand...

1. But how does one become righteous in Christ.

2. Is it possible that there is another way other than Christ? Why or why not?
DHK [/QUOTE]Are you able to answer these for me, 3AM?

3AngelsMom · Jun 24, 2003

Originally posted by DHK:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by DHK:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?
Who then is righteous?
How does one become righteous?

Our 'righteousness' is as filthy rags. The only righteousness we could have is to be in Christ, and claim HIS righteousness. A person who is NOT a Christian, ie they are not in Christ, will not have the ability to claim the righteousness of Christ for themselves, and therefore will still be all of those things those verses mention. AND NOT elegible for the Kingdom of God.

Jesus is the ONLY Way. THE ONLY.

Click to expand...

1. But how does one become righteous in Christ.

2. Is it possible that there is another way other than Christ? Why or why not?
DHK [/QUOTE]Are you able to answer these for me, 3AM? [/QUOTE]Sorry, didn't see it!

1. How do you become righteous in Christ?

Phi 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

2. Is there any way other than Christ?

NO. Even those who will be saved by way of 'times of ignorance' will be saved by the Righteousness of Christ. The substitute of Christ is the only way to have our sins forgiven. He is the only Sacrifice that is capable of cleansing our record.

If you look at the OT prefigures of Christ, the set up even had a special offering for 'ignorance'. Sin is sin, but to whom it is imputed is interesting to me. The person who sinned in ignorance is not the one who made the offering. It was the responsibility of the others in the camp to make the sacrifice.

I think that this passage is pretty clear:

Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

As I said before, it is the times of ignorance. I think only God knows who is TRULY ignorant, and who wishes that they were! There were times of ignorance, through the OT figures, but now God is calling all men, everywhere to repent. So I think one would be hard pressed to live in this day in age and not ever hear of Jesus. Don't you think?

Regardless though, I am certain that there are people who have not heard. Or the only thing they have heard about Jesus is negative, therefore they remain in ignorance to the truth about Christ. (like Muslims)

God Bless,
Kelly

A sincere question for Catholics

<img src =/3mom.jpg>

New Member

<img src =/3mom.jpg>

New Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

<img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">

New Member

<img src =/3mom.jpg>

<img src =/3mom.jpg>

New Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

<b>Moderator</b>

<img src =/3mom.jpg>