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A sincere question for Catholics

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by 3AngelsMom, Jun 18, 2003.

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  1. 3AngelsMom

    3AngelsMom <img src =/3mom.jpg>

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    DHK,

    Do you speak English?

    I am NOT going to answer you again.

    I am NOT going to take your bait to engage in yet ANOTHER Trinity/ Diety of Christ debate!

    NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

    What am I afraid of?

    Not a whole lot. Spiders kind of scare me, and big trucks when I'm on the freeway.

    You? NO, you make me laugh.

    If you want to be a part of this discussion, you're going to have to move past the questions I have already answered.

    I'm not going to answer them in any other way.

    The Bible is clear enough. That is what I believe. WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS.
     
    #221 3AngelsMom, Jun 26, 2003
  2. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Yes, you have made it quite clear now 3AM. You don't want to discuss any issues that relate to salvation. Only an unsaved person would have an attitude like that. True Christians love to discuss their salvation and matters related to it out of the Bible. This is not the case with you. It is a definite sign that you are not saved. The Bible warns:
    Examine yourself to see whether you are in the faith.
    Take heed 3AM, you are in great danger.
    DHK
     
    #222 DHK, Jun 26, 2003
  3. Kathryn

    Kathryn New Member

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    DHK: Just because a person doesn’t want to continue a discussion with you, doesn’t mean the person is unsaved. You are judging the thoughts and intentions of the heart which is reserved for God.


    God Bless
     
    #223 Kathryn, Jun 26, 2003
  4. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    On the contrary Kathryn. My position on this board has always been to proclaim truth and expose error. The reason that 3AM did not want to continue this discussion is that she knew where it was headed--toward the deity of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
    Tell me what you believe Kathryn: Can a person be saved and deny that Christ is God at the same time? 3AM holds to this belief. She does not believe that Christ is God. You can ask her; she will tell you. But when you ask her, ask her in this manner:

    Is Jesus Christ the one and only Most High God?
    Yes or No?

    Christ Himself said: "Judge rigteous judgement." As far as judging is concerned he commanded us to judge. Judge error from truth. There are wolves in sheep's clothing that frequent this board often, spouting off various heresies. "Them rebuke before all." "Earnestly contend for the faith."
    Again, I do not believe that one denies the very deity of Christ can be saved.
    DHK
     
    #224 DHK, Jun 26, 2003
  5. 3AngelsMom

    3AngelsMom <img src =/3mom.jpg>

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    DHK,

    As suspected, you again show us your true colors.

    It must be interesting for Catholics to see you behave this way, when it is a Baptist board they are visiting, and YOU yourself, being a baptist, act the way you do.

    You bring shame upon yourself, and the whole of the Baptist community.

    You do NOT judge righteously, because YOU YOURSELF are not a righteous person.

    That is an impossibility, and it is your flesh that controls you when you behave this way.

    NOT ONCE have I EVER told you that you were lost, even though we disagree on just about every doctrinal point known to man.

    It is truly a sad thing to encounter someone like you.

    I have been, and will continue to pray for you.
     
    #225 3AngelsMom, Jun 26, 2003
  6. 3AngelsMom

    3AngelsMom <img src =/3mom.jpg>

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    DHK: Just because a person doesn’t want to continue a discussion with you, doesn’t mean the person is unsaved. You are judging the thoughts and intentions of the heart which is reserved for God.


    God Bless     </font>[/QUOTE]Kathryn,
    Thank you.

    It is good to see someone with a sweet spirit on these boards.

    It is refreshing.

    God Bless,
    Kelly
     
    #226 3AngelsMom, Jun 26, 2003
  7. Kathryn

    Kathryn New Member

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    DHK: You say here because she does not want to continue to discuss salvation with you, this is a definite sign that she is not saved. This is ridiculous. Using these tactics is the reason why some people don’t want to continue in discussions with you. You are badgering her and being uncharitable. Do I want to answer your questions then? Not really. You are very domineering and underhanded in your interactions with people you judge unsaved. Go ahead and declare yourself the "winner" of the argument by default, but maybe you should examine yourself and look at your people skills and see where charity fits in. It's one of the principle gifts of the Holy Spirit, actually it is the greatest of the gifts according to Scripture.

    God Bless

    [ June 26, 2003, 06:06 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]
     
    #227 Kathryn, Jun 26, 2003
  8. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Uncharitable?

    2John 6-11
    6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
    7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
    8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
    9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
    10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
    11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

    The doctrine of Christ is fully related to the deity of Christ. It is Christ (God) come in the flesh. It relates to his incarnation. What is love? Love is having known the truth to tell it to others that they also may know it. It takes love to carry out the Great Commission. Love your neighbor as yourself. Do you love others enough to lead them then in paths of righteousness. Or are there some here that are wolves in sheep's clothing leading others down the road to Hell. People who deny the very deity of Christ.

    Not once has 3AM come forth and cleared things up by affirming her belief in the deity of Christ. Does she believe in the one and only Most High God, that that God is indeed Christ? If not, she is a false prophet and needs to be exposed as such. I feel no guilt at all. 3AM can clear this situation up herself. Does she or does she not believe in the deity of Christ. It is a simple question? And since this is a "Christian only" forum should she be allowed to continue posting if she doesn't? Good question isn't it? After all it is a Christian forum. What is a Christian?
    DHK
     
    #228 DHK, Jun 26, 2003
  9. Kathryn

    Kathryn New Member

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    DHK:
    This is quoted from this very thread from Kelly:

    Kelly says she is finished discussing with you, and I am too.

    God Bless
     
    #229 Kathryn, Jun 26, 2003
  10. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    This is quoted from this very thread from Kelly:

    Kelly says she is finished discussing with you, and I am too.

    God Bless     </font>[/QUOTE]Believe as you wish. That is not an affirmation of the deity of Christ. The Jehovah Witnesses believe something similar, if not the same.
    DHK
     
    #230 DHK, Jun 26, 2003
  11. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Why is it so difficult for some to answer the question:
    Is Jesus Christ the one and only Most High God?
    Yes or No?

    The answer should be obvious.
    And the answer is obvious why some people don't want to answer.
    DHK
     
    #231 DHK, Jun 26, 2003
  12. 3AngelsMom

    3AngelsMom <img src =/3mom.jpg>

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    Kathryn,

    I just noticed this post. I'm sorry I missed it! May I take a stab now? [​IMG]

    You are more right than you know. :rolleyes:
    I am going to have to say, that up until a few months ago, I was one of those people who were constantly looking to the CC for the antichrist. I have recently come to the conclusion that the antichrist will come out of the SECOND beast in Revelation. The one that comes out of the earth (as opposed to Pagan Rome, the one that came out of the 'sea').
    Without being rude, to what extent is this visible? From day one of the CC's inception there has been REALLY bad things going on in it! Anyone can see by just taking a look at history that the CC has been plagued by violence in it's leadership, manipulation, and recently pedophilia. That hardly paints a picture of 'without blemish' for those of us looking in from the outside! :( For those of us who have a fairly good understanding of the prophecies of scripture (and I think that I do), all signs point to the CC to fulfill the Great Harlot Prophecy. I must say though, that at this point in time, I feel that the CC is still very much a part of the 'Laodicean' Church, and has not actually moved into the phase in which it will fulfill that prophecy. Just as many claim that the Pope is the antichrist, that well may be true, in the future, but it is not right now! There are several points in the Great Harlot Prophecy that the CC has fulfilled, and then there are several that it has not, but then, I also think, again, that it will not be until later (most likely after the antichrist takes power) that the CC will completely fulfill that prophecy. I earnestly believe that by that time, all of the true followers of Christ, that are truly part of the Church of God will have 'come out of her'. That warning has been being given for quite sometime now, most likely for the sake that it would take time to go out to all those needing to hear it! I must say again though that I do not believe that the CC is the Great Harlot NOW. I do believe that it WILL be though.
    NOW, on that point I agree with you wholeheartedly! The Church of God (and I mean worldwide, all those who have placed their faith in Christ) is in the eyes of God ALL THOSE THINGS. It is ONLY because of His Grace! He is allowing the true believers to 'grow' up with the 'chaff' and just as you said, He is going to BURN THEM!
    Again, complete agreement. Catholic or not, Baptist or not, SDA or not! If they don't have His Seal, in the fire they will GO!
    I don't think I have ever agreed with something MORE! His GRACE is what brings eternal life, a life that WILL REACH FULFILLMENT when Jesus returns, resurrects the dead in Christ, and Raptures the living!

    Excellent points!

    God Bless,
    Kelly
     
    #232 3AngelsMom, Jun 27, 2003
  13. Kathryn

    Kathryn New Member

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    Kelly:

    This is what happens with private interpretation of scriptures. “But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation”. 2 Peter 1:20
    If it was the Holy Spirit leading in the interpretation it would not be wrong.

    Most claim whatever present Pope is the Anti-Christ until he is about the die, then switch to then next, or a future Pope. Been going on for quite a while. It is pretty obvious this one wasn’t it. So, the next one probably is. All guess work and bearing false witness on people. Scripture teaches the Anti-Christ will deny the divinity of Jesus Christ. No Pope has taught this.

    Actually it was a Seventh Day Adventist billboard on I-5 in Central Point, Oregon about 5 years ago that started me defending the faith. I had never seen a billboard declaring the Pope is the Anti-Christ before. The man who paid for years to have it up, was wrong, and will now have to say it is the next Pope, when that Pope dies, it will be the next one for sure. In any case I saw that the Church was being persecuted, and called names, just as Jesus Christ was, and just as Jesus Christ had promised His Church would be.

    The Apocalypse or Revelation is the “revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Cor 1:7), “when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire: (2 Thes 1:7), “the Grace that is coming to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ” (1 Pt 1:13), “so will it be on the day when the Son of man is revealed” Lk 17:30. It is in other words, the manifestation of the triumph of Christ, which is coming very soon. It is this fact that the revelation to John is about.

    This triumph of Jesus Christ exists on several different planes the Apocalypse tells us : Jesus Christ "who is and who was and who is to come" Rev 1:8. That is what it is about.

    This triumph of Jesus Christ is a fact that has taken place, is an enduring reality, and is a future promise. Most of the Apocalypse is about the final triumph at the end of time, but it also means the here and now, as well as the past. Much of it is about Christ’s triumph as a single reality, in which past, present, and future are fused into one. This is why John can say it comes soon. This theme of past, present, and future all being real at the same time runs all through the Bible. Past, present, and future are mingled into one vision. The destruction of the Jerusalem is mingled with His description of the end times.

    The Apocalypse was written not to tell us about future historic events, but to console us in our faith. It isn’t “sacred fortune telling” for Christians to guess about. But many ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do other scriptures. (2 Pt 3:16) It is very much about what we have now, and what we will have in the future….. Eternal life with Jesus Christ and all about His triumph in glory.

    The kingdom of God is already here, and will reach its fulfillment when Jesus Christ comes in glory. The supper of the lamb is already here, the marriage feast of the lamb is yet to come. The bride of Christ is already here, the wedding is yet to come.

    We are in the end times now and have been for a very long time. Too many have missed it and are looking for the Whore of Babylon rather than the Bride of Christ which is His own body….the Church. The pillar and foundation of truth with the keys of the kingdom, the light of the world, the city set on a hill. The Vatican is on one hill not seven as pagan Rome was.

    As far a your unfavorable view of the Church, your version of history is from the same people who teach the Church is the whore of Babylon. Secular academic history shows a different and much truer perspective of Church history. Jesus Christ has promised to separate the wheat from the chaff.

    The next time you hear Protestants sing in their congregations “Faith of Our Fathers” and hear about the blood that was shed, realize that this was a Catholic song written by a Catholic about Catholic martyrs for the faith…just a little history trivia.

    God Bless
     
    #233 Kathryn, Jun 27, 2003
  14. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    My understanding of the antichrist is that he will become a pronounced political leader who will rule the world. One would think that this would rule out the leadership of the Roman Catholic Church because this brute will come into power through a vital 'peace initiative.' This man will probably be a great political leader.

    Someone said, 'Scripture teaches the Anti-Christ will deny the divinity of Jesus Christ.'

    I doubt this. II Thessalonians 2:4 indicates that the antichrist will sit in the future, yet not erected, Great Tribulation Temple 'showing himself that he is God.' Our God claims Deity and this monster will also assert the same thing.

    The second beast of Revelation 13:11 will be a religious personality who will tell the world to venerate the profaned Christ figure. In theology we call him the False Prophet. This one will probably be a religious figure out of the one world church that continues on after Christ withdraws His true church to Heaven. [I Thess. 4:17]
     
    #234 Ray Berrian, Jun 27, 2003
  15. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    My understanding of the antichrist is that he will become a pronounced political leader who will rule the world. One would think that this would rule out the leadership of the Roman Catholic Church because this brute will come into power through a vital 'peace initiative.' This man will probably be a great political leader.

    Someone said, 'Scripture teaches the Anti-Christ will deny the divinity of Jesus Christ.'

    I doubt this. II Thessalonians 2:4 indicates that the antichrist will sit in the future, yet not erected, Great Tribulation Temple 'showing himself that he is God.' Our God claims Deity and this monster will also assert the same thing.

    The second beast of Revelation 13:11 will be a religious personality who will tell the world to venerate the profaned Christ figure. In theology we call him the False Prophet. This one will probably be a religious figure out of the one world church that continues on after Christ withdraws His true church to Heaven. [I Thess. 4:17]
     
    #235 Ray Berrian, Jun 27, 2003
  16. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    Sorry for the error; please delete one.
     
    #236 Ray Berrian, Jun 27, 2003
  17. Kathryn

    Kathryn New Member

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    Ray, you say:
    I said the Anti-Christ will deny the divinity of Jesus Christ, because Holy Scripture says this quite clearly:

    1 John 2:22
    Who is the liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, [even] he that denieth the Father and the Son .

    1 John 4:3
    and every spirit that confesseth not Jesus is not of God: and this is the [spirit] of the antichrist , whereof ye have heard that it cometh; and now it is in the world already.

    2 John 1:7
    For many deceivers are gone forth into the world, [even] they that confess not that Jesus Christ cometh in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.

    Many Protestants separate the book of Revelation from the rest of Holy Scripture. John Himself sure didn't.


    God Bless

    [ June 27, 2003, 04:47 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]
     
    #237 Kathryn, Jun 27, 2003
  18. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    Kathryn said, I said the Ant-Christ will deny the divinity of Jesus Christ, because Holy Scripture says this quite clearly:

    1 John 2:22
    Who is the liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? This is the
    antichrist, [even] he that denieth the Father and the Son .
    1 John 4:3
    and every spirit that confesseth not Jesus is not of God: and this is
    the [spirit] of the antichrist , whereof ye have heard that it cometh; and
    now it is in the world already.

    2 John 1:7
    For many deceivers are gone forth into the world, [even] they that
    confess not that Jesus Christ cometh in the flesh. This is the deceiver
    and the antichrist.

    Ray is saying, 'I believe I John 2:22 means that anyone who denies that Jesus is the Christ is a liar and harbors the spirit of antichrist in his heart. This is rebellion against the true God. Then in verse 23 John explains by saying any person who denies the Son does not have the Father God, but to any person who loves the Son has the Father also. During the Apostle John's days on earth he submits that there were 'many antichrists' who were doing the Devil's work. [I John 2:18]

    I believe we have had antichrists who were and are alive in our world, as noted in I John 2:18. For example, Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Sadam Hussein, and so on.


    I John 4:3 is saying that anyone who has not received Christ as personal Savior, has the spirit of antichrist in his or her heart.

    II John 1:7 is saying that anyone who denies Jesus Divinity and His earthly mission on this earth is a deceiver and has the attitude and mindset of antichrist.

    The political monster who will rule the world has not yet been revealed to the world, but may well be alive somewhere on this cosmos.
     
    #238 Ray Berrian, Jun 27, 2003
  19. Kathryn

    Kathryn New Member

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    Ray:
    The Anti-Christ will have the spirit of the Anti-Christ, not something else or different. The anti-Christ's of our past will have the same spirit as the Anti-Christ in the last hours. The spirit of the anti-Christ has been revealed to us in Scripture as being one who will deny the divinity of Christ. It has been revealed to us as the common denominator in being an anti-Christ, ....the denial of the divinity of Jesus Christ.

    That was then, this is now, reasoning doesn't work with Holy Scripture or the kingdom of God. Jesus Christ "who is and who was and who is to come" Rev 1:8.

    "Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour" .1 John 2:18


    God Bless

    [ June 27, 2003, 06:04 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]
     
    #239 Kathryn, Jun 27, 2003
  20. 3AngelsMom

    3AngelsMom <img src =/3mom.jpg>

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    This is what happens with private interpretation of scriptures. “But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation”. 2 Peter 1:20
    If it was the Holy Spirit leading in the interpretation it would not be wrong.</font>[/QUOTE]Do you know what I am talking about when I say the SECOND Beast? It is not private interpretation at all. There are many, worldwide, who believe that the first Beast in Revelation, that rises up out of the 'sea' or 'multitudes of people' is Pagan Rome, the city on Seven Hills. The Second Beast rises up out of the 'earth' or the direct opposite 'an unpopulated area'. The 'many' who agree on this believe that the Second Beast is the USA. It has two horns, unlike the Roman Beast with 10. Rome's Empire, at the height of it's world control was made up of 13 nations, and then just as the prophecy states, had 3 plucked up, or cut out, and then it stood as 10 nations. The USA Beast with two horns is represented by the two divisions of our government. The USA Beast has also proven itself through it's actions that 'appear as a lamb, but speak as a dragon' especially recently with it's 'anti-God' campaign.
    Actually the Bible doesn't say anything about the antichrist denying the divinity of anyone! The antichrist SPIRIT is that spirit which denies several things.
    1. Denies that Jesus is THE CHRIST.
    2. Denies the Father and the Son.(1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.)
    3. Denies that Jesus Christ came in the FLESH.(1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.; 2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.)

    Ok, so on those 3 points which is ALL the Bible says about this 'antichrist' spirit, there is no mention of the diety of Christ.

    Just as you said, this 'witch hunt' aimed at the Pope is pretty rediculous considering that the Pope represents a Church that believes all three of those things!

    That is why I believe that the antichrist power will come from the USA, a country that is denying God by it's actions a little more every day!

    As far as that Billboard goes, there are wackos in every denomination, and the SDA is not immune to it. Ellen White (the founder, and prophet of the SDA) would not have ever endorsed such an action. If it makes any difference, I apologize for that man's unChristian behavior. Thinking something is one thing, but the only intent I can see that he had was to offend people. :rolleyes:
    As far as the persecution goes, all Christians, regardless of denomination are persecuted by the world. That's not a deciding factor to prove that the CC is the 'one true church'.

    Ok, so then what about Daniel? Daniel gives us more light on the Beasts than the Revelation does. You can write off the book of Revelation as mere poetry, or call it an extension of the Gospels,but the book of Daniel was written THOUSANDS of years before Christ even CAME.

    So then what about the Seven Seals, Bowls, and Trumpets?? What part of 'the Triumph of Jesus' are those about? I'm sorry, but you can't just throw out all the prophecies in the book of Revelation just because they might be pointing to your church. No offense or anything, but there is a pretty good chance that each of the major denominations in the world RIGHT NOW will play a major role in the fulfillment of the prophecies in both Daniel and Revelation. Since the CC is the LARGEST, most worldwide church out there, it is impossible to deny that it will play a role. Keep in mind, this is the Laodicean age. The Church of God (worldwide body of believers) is in a 'lukewarm' state.

    Now, that is a Historical view of Prophecy, which most SDA's adhere to. I do not believe that the Prophecies are all future tense (like the Left Behind heresy books).
    Again, that is a Historic view. I thought the CC was preterist? hmmm.

    There it is! There is no possible way that you could ever convince me that the words written in the book of Revelation ARE NOT about future events. NO WAY. I agree that it isn't sacred fortune telling, but it is FOR SURE a picture of the future fate of the Church of God, and the wicked. I totally agree with you that people have twisted it to their own distruction because in the Left Behind series that now have LOST people thinking that after the Rapture they can repent and come to God, and get to go to heaven, as long as they don't take the mark of the beast!!! What a LIE. The Bible is REALLY clear when it says NONE of them repented of their blasheming (during the 7 plagues). The simple fact that they are promoting a 7 year duration of tribulation tells me they are a bunch of liars, because there isn't even a time prophecy in the Bible that lasts 7 years!

    To an extent, yes.
    Are you referring to the Lord's TABLE?
    Question: How can the Bride of Christ already be HERE if you believe that the dead in Christ are already in Heaven? hmmm

    Who is looking for the Whore, that missed the Body? I don't know of a single LOST person who is seeking to understand the Prophecies of the Revelation. Most lost people couldn't care less as to what the Bible says! What have they missed? The Body of Christ is not the CC. The Body of Christ is the WORLDWIDE Church of God. ALL OF US.
    I'm sorry. The CC is NOT a pillar of TRUTH. You might have some doctrines that are correct, but the CC has many others that are WAY WRONG. I'm not alone in this conclusion. There are many protestant denominations, that saw the errors in the CC and left. Those errors are still there.
    I got that. The Vatican rules from Rome. Rome is the City on Seven Hills. When was the Vatican first 'incorporated'? Did you know it was REALLY recently? I wonder why they did that?
    My version? I'm sorry I learned about the unfavorable actions of the CC when in High School, and college. From SECULAR books. I have a secular history book on my shelf right now that tells of all the terrrible things the CC did. I went to a display at the Museum of History (aka Museum of MAN) in Balboa Park and SAW the torture machines they used on so called heretics. I touched them!
    HA! My view of history is FROM the 'secular perspective' so what do you make of that? :D
    Interesting. Where was that? In Ireland? When was that song referring to? WHO killed them? The CC's history is riddled with violence from within. They killed more of their own MEMBERS than anyone else! Does the CC sing that song?

    God Bless,
    Kelly
     
    #240 3AngelsMom, Jun 27, 2003
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